Ambience has more patience with idiots than I do, that's for sure...
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Dark Knight
Member
3:05 pm, Nov 29 2006
Posts: 390
4:01 pm, Nov 29 2006
Posts: 10661
Guys, watch the language in this thread.
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A just ruler amongst tyrants
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A just ruler amongst tyrants
Member6:31 pm, Nov 29 2006
Posts: 101
Quote from GGpX
What's your definition of "project jacking." ?
I actually don't have a definition, because I don't honestly believe one can "jack" something that's already being stolen from the rightful owner. But for the sake of argument, let's just say I believe the group that starts scanlating a project first has precedence over the others. Of course, most of these groups with precedence get lazy or release such piss-poor quality work *cough*BLAH*cough* that I think it's only right if another group tries their hand at winning that precedence.
Just to reiterate, I still don't believe any of this.
By the way... my room is cold.
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Currently Undergoing Nativity Training
Member
3:31 am, Nov 30 2006
Posts: 60
3:31 am, Nov 30 2006
Posts: 60
Quote from Ambience Blue
Okay. I think In Use isn't understanding something. There's a difference between copyrights and licenses, though the lines can get pretty close.
Copyright: Usually issued to the owner or progenitor of the concept/ work.
License: Business agreement handed selectively to other parties under strict regulations (ex: You may only alter the pages to reflect English translations of the series)
The original Japanese companies hold the copyrights and Japanese licenses. They usually don't go out of their way to translate their own works into other languages, preferring to license them (sell restricted rights) to offshore companies to do as they will.
What the scanlation community does is take the original Japanese manga, written in Japanese, and translate them for a larger non-Japanese speaking audience. From the copyright-holder's perspective, then, this is beneficial, since popularity of a scanlation project indicates that the project will do well in a foreign country and will thus help them sell the license to an offshore corporation. Yes, it is illegal, since copyrighted material isn't meant to not be tampered with. Japanese companies, however, prefer to turn a blind eye to scanlating, since it proves beneficial to their long-term goals.
Scanning and releasing manga that has been licensed and is available in another language, however, is more of a grounds for suit, since the free scanlations are direct competition for the licensed books available in stores. I won't even get started on groups that straight-up scan right out of the translated commercial books. That's straight-up piracy.
And btw, what was up with the racism part? That made even less sense, since the whole point of scanlating is to acquaint non-Japanese audiences with East Asian culture. Please think a little before charging others with vast, hurtful generalizations.
Copyright: Usually issued to the owner or progenitor of the concept/ work.
License: Business agreement handed selectively to other parties under strict regulations (ex: You may only alter the pages to reflect English translations of the series)
The original Japanese companies hold the copyrights and Japanese licenses. They usually don't go out of their way to translate their own works into other languages, preferring to license them (sell restricted rights) to offshore companies to do as they will.
What the scanlation community does is take the original Japanese manga, written in Japanese, and translate them for a larger non-Japanese speaking audience. From the copyright-holder's perspective, then, this is beneficial, since popularity of a scanlation project indicates that the project will do well in a foreign country and will thus help them sell the license to an offshore corporation. Yes, it is illegal, since copyrighted material isn't meant to not be tampered with. Japanese companies, however, prefer to turn a blind eye to scanlating, since it proves beneficial to their long-term goals.
Scanning and releasing manga that has been licensed and is available in another language, however, is more of a grounds for suit, since the free scanlations are direct competition for the licensed books available in stores. I won't even get started on groups that straight-up scan right out of the translated commercial books. That's straight-up piracy.
And btw, what was up with the racism part? That made even less sense, since the whole point of scanlating is to acquaint non-Japanese audiences with East Asian culture. Please think a little before charging others with vast, hurtful generalizations.
So your saying stealing from japenese is good because it helps them... thats not true. They simply cant stop it so they are forced to do with it.
And your reason to say stealing from american license is bad is because your afraid of doing competition with them? So those who dont scan licensed projects are pussies?
Why would scanning licensed project be more piracy than stealing from japenese copyright...
Edit:About the racism part, its the only reason I see right now to actually steal from japenese and not americans... Unless its because your scarred of competition.
Last edited by In use at 3:38 am, Nov 30 2006
Member
3:36 am, Nov 30 2006
Posts: 60
3:36 am, Nov 30 2006
Posts: 60
Quote from GGpX
in use: Are you retarded?
I mean, do you have any common sense whatsoever?
-_-
I mean, do you have any common sense whatsoever?
-_-
No im not...
Explain to me what is this common sense of yours.
Member
8:17 am, Nov 30 2006
Posts: 7
8:17 am, Nov 30 2006
Posts: 7
Quote from In use
(quote by Ambience Blue)Okay. I think In Use isn't understanding something. There's a difference between copyrights and licenses, though the lines can get pretty close.
Copyright: Usually issued to the owner or progenitor of the concept/ work.
License: Business agreement handed selectively to other parties under strict regulations (ex: You may only alter the pages to reflect English translations of the series)
The original Japanese companies hold the copyrights and Japanese licenses. They usually don't go out of their way to translate their own works into other languages, preferring to license them (sell restricted rights) to offshore companies to do as they will.
What the scanlation community does is take the original Japanese manga, written in Japanese, and translate them for a larger non-Japanese speaking audience. From the copyright-holder's perspective, then, this is beneficial, since popularity of a scanlation project indicates that the project will do well in a foreign country and will thus help them sell the license to an offshore corporation. Yes, it is illegal, since copyrighted material isn't meant to not be tampered with. Japanese companies, however, prefer to turn a blind eye to scanlating, since it proves beneficial to their long-term goals.
Scanning and releasing manga that has been licensed and is available in another language, however, is more of a grounds for suit, since the free scanlations are direct competition for the licensed books available in stores. I won't even get started on groups that straight-up scan right out of the translated commercial books. That's straight-up piracy.
And btw, what was up with the racism part? That made even less sense, since the whole point of scanlating is to acquaint non-Japanese audiences with East Asian culture. Please think a little before charging others with vast, hurtful generalizations.(/quote)
So your saying stealing from japenese is good because it helps them... thats not true. They simply cant stop it so they are forced to do with it.
And your reason to say stealing from american license is bad is because your afraid of doing competition with them? So those who dont scan licensed projects are pussies?
Why would scanning licensed project be more piracy than stealing from japenese copyright...
Edit:About the racism part, its the only reason I see right now to actually steal from japenese and not americans... Unless its because your scarred of competition.
Copyright: Usually issued to the owner or progenitor of the concept/ work.
License: Business agreement handed selectively to other parties under strict regulations (ex: You may only alter the pages to reflect English translations of the series)
The original Japanese companies hold the copyrights and Japanese licenses. They usually don't go out of their way to translate their own works into other languages, preferring to license them (sell restricted rights) to offshore companies to do as they will.
What the scanlation community does is take the original Japanese manga, written in Japanese, and translate them for a larger non-Japanese speaking audience. From the copyright-holder's perspective, then, this is beneficial, since popularity of a scanlation project indicates that the project will do well in a foreign country and will thus help them sell the license to an offshore corporation. Yes, it is illegal, since copyrighted material isn't meant to not be tampered with. Japanese companies, however, prefer to turn a blind eye to scanlating, since it proves beneficial to their long-term goals.
Scanning and releasing manga that has been licensed and is available in another language, however, is more of a grounds for suit, since the free scanlations are direct competition for the licensed books available in stores. I won't even get started on groups that straight-up scan right out of the translated commercial books. That's straight-up piracy.
And btw, what was up with the racism part? That made even less sense, since the whole point of scanlating is to acquaint non-Japanese audiences with East Asian culture. Please think a little before charging others with vast, hurtful generalizations.(/quote)
So your saying stealing from japenese is good because it helps them... thats not true. They simply cant stop it so they are forced to do with it.
And your reason to say stealing from american license is bad is because your afraid of doing competition with them? So those who dont scan licensed projects are pussies?
Why would scanning licensed project be more piracy than stealing from japenese copyright...
Edit:About the racism part, its the only reason I see right now to actually steal from japenese and not americans... Unless its because your scarred of competition.
What you need to do is look at it from the copyright holder's point of view. Scanlations of japanese Manga for the english speaking people will not result in any relevant loss of money for the japanese copyright holder, because few people outside of japan can read japanese. They didn't buy the manga to begin with.
Now, let's assume the Scanlation gains a alot of popularity in maybe the USA. The copyright holder sees this and thinks: "hey, i could make a lot of money with my manga over there as well." They won't publish it there themselves, for cost reasons, but they will take money from an american corporation and allow them to sell it there.
This is where the problem arises. The american corporation does now offer the same thing as the scanlation groups, a manga with an english translation. Noone will buy from the corporation because, hey, you can get it for free from the scanlators. So to the corporation a scanlator is a rival that can't be beaten, except by giving money to the people that buy the manga, which is obviously nonsense.
The end of it will be that no american corporation will buy the rights to publish the manga in the USA from the japanese corporation/artist. Those in turn won't get the money they would have gotten otherwise. And this hurts the japanese manga industry in general, which can't be any manga-loving person's wish.
I am aware I basically repeated ambience's statement from before, but maybe this formulation is understandable to in use if ambience's was not.
The difference between scanlating a manga that is not licensed and one that is is not the fact that it's piracy (it's piracy in either way)...it's the impact it has on the industry.
Lazy Mofo
Member
8:56 am, Nov 30 2006
Posts: 57
yeah so In-use go ahead and scan the american published manga's and distribute it to the public, now wait a while for an attorney's letter from the english liscensors to be delivered to you, but since its just a letter ignore it and continue..wait a bit longer and there will be cops at your door knockin
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Kindan no Aku Founder
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Kindan no Aku Founder
Member
9:26 am, Nov 30 2006
Posts: 60
9:26 am, Nov 30 2006
Posts: 60
Ok, so your saying there are good pirates because they hurt the economy less than the bad pirates whos scans hurt the manga industries.
Makes sense if you actually care more about the manga industries than yourself and the scanlation community...
The japenese mangas in japan are mostly all being scanned in Japan and their industries are still working fine. If you ask me the industries are making enough money already and should give more to the people.
Madocchi, its not hard at all to do scans of licensed manga and upload them without being marked...
Easiest way is just to make a way for your files to get in the hands of a Lurk mod/uploader/admin and it will be hosted indefinitally.
Makes sense if you actually care more about the manga industries than yourself and the scanlation community...
The japenese mangas in japan are mostly all being scanned in Japan and their industries are still working fine. If you ask me the industries are making enough money already and should give more to the people.
Madocchi, its not hard at all to do scans of licensed manga and upload them without being marked...
Easiest way is just to make a way for your files to get in the hands of a Lurk mod/uploader/admin and it will be hosted indefinitally.
Member
9:50 am, Nov 30 2006
Posts: 686
9:50 am, Nov 30 2006
Posts: 686
sigh
Member
9:52 am, Nov 30 2006
Posts: 7
9:52 am, Nov 30 2006
Posts: 7
Quote
Makes sense if you actually care more about the manga industries than yourself and the scanlation community...
You know, it's very much like a chain: from artist to japanese publisher to american distributor to you. The money you pay the american distributor for the manga will be invested in further licenses which in turn means more budget for the japanese. The quality of the manga can rise if there is enough money to pay for the expenses. Therefore you buying manga results in you getting better quality. And consequently, you not buying manga (that is licensed) results in you not getting better quality. You're trying to bite the hand that feeds you, so to speak.
Quote
The japenese mangas in japan are mostly all being scanned in Japan and their industries are still working fine
It does not matter where the scanlations are made but where they are distributed. Japanese will hardly go for english translations if they can get the japanese original just the same. This does not affect the japanese market.
And them doing fine does not mean they couldn't do better and won't do worse if american licensors cease to aquire new titles.
Member
10:22 am, Nov 30 2006
Posts: 60
10:22 am, Nov 30 2006
Posts: 60
Quote from Vortex
(quote)Makes sense if you actually care more about the manga industries than yourself and the scanlation community...(/quote)
You know, it's very much like a chain: from artist to japanese publisher to american distributor to you. The money you pay the american distributor for the manga will be invested in further licenses which in turn means more budget for the japanese. The quality of the manga can rise if there is enough money to pay for the expenses. Therefore you buying manga results in you getting better quality. And consequently, you not buying manga (that is licensed) results in you not getting better quality. You're trying to bite the hand that feeds you, so to speak.
(quote)The japenese mangas in japan are mostly all being scanned in Japan and their industries are still working fine(/quote)
It does not matter where the scanlations are made but where they are distributed. Japanese will hardly go for english translations if they can get the japanese original just the same. This does not affect the japanese market.
And them doing fine does not mean they couldn't do better and won't do worse if american licensors cease to aquire new titles.
You know, it's very much like a chain: from artist to japanese publisher to american distributor to you. The money you pay the american distributor for the manga will be invested in further licenses which in turn means more budget for the japanese. The quality of the manga can rise if there is enough money to pay for the expenses. Therefore you buying manga results in you getting better quality. And consequently, you not buying manga (that is licensed) results in you not getting better quality. You're trying to bite the hand that feeds you, so to speak.
(quote)The japenese mangas in japan are mostly all being scanned in Japan and their industries are still working fine(/quote)
It does not matter where the scanlations are made but where they are distributed. Japanese will hardly go for english translations if they can get the japanese original just the same. This does not affect the japanese market.
And them doing fine does not mean they couldn't do better and won't do worse if american licensors cease to aquire new titles.
I dont see the problem of biting the hand that feeds me if they are trying to make me pay for my food. If im starving I could even eat it.
Lowering the quality wouldnt really do me much wrong since its just some scans of them.
The industries american or japenese havent gone down even with all the scanning of licensed manga and the scanlating, on the contrary they are growing bigger.
Before investing in other licenses, they will up their own revenus. We cant do anything about it. We can decide to be good pirates and let them get richer while we get mostly nothing except for the hardworking effort of the scanlating community or be bad pirates and get what we want getting them poorer but still rich. Even if we wouldnt have as much licensed stuff we would still be winning more than we are now.
Member
10:50 am, Nov 30 2006
Posts: 7
10:50 am, Nov 30 2006
Posts: 7
Quote
Lowering the quality wouldnt really do me much wrong since its just some scans of them.
Then why don't you go and look at some toddler's doodles if you do not care about quality.
Honestly you seem to believe that manga artists are only there for your entertainment. Basically your point is that you have the right to benefit from other people's work without giving anything in return...that's like robbing a bakery because you have the right to eat.
The damn bakery will up their revenue before baking anymore bread, Suuuure. Why should they make more if they can expect it to be stolen right away.
11:05 am, Nov 30 2006
Posts: 2658
I don't know if anyone else has made this point yet, but consider the intended audience. You only have to look at the age thread to see that most people who read manga are young and (most likely) poor. The biggest issue is that these companies are trying to sell to a very unmarketable demographic. It's much easier for a 16 year old to download a volume off the internet than it is for them to spend $10 bucks.
Personally I agree that viral marketing could help unlicensed manga become popular and sell better here once licensed. In an ideal world, everyone would stop scanlating a manga once it's licensed. However, as we've seen, this is not the case.
In the end, it's all copyright infringement. It doesn't really matter if there are good "pirates" or bad "pirates". It's all the same. Using or making scanlations is a personal choice you make.
Personally I agree that viral marketing could help unlicensed manga become popular and sell better here once licensed. In an ideal world, everyone would stop scanlating a manga once it's licensed. However, as we've seen, this is not the case.
In the end, it's all copyright infringement. It doesn't really matter if there are good "pirates" or bad "pirates". It's all the same. Using or making scanlations is a personal choice you make.
Member
11:10 am, Nov 30 2006
Posts: 60
11:10 am, Nov 30 2006
Posts: 60
Quote from Vortex
(quote)Lowering the quality wouldnt really do me much wrong since its just some scans of them.
(/quote)
Then why don't you go and look at some toddler's doodles if you do not care about quality.
Honestly you seem to believe that manga artists are only there for your entertainment. Basically your point is that you have the right to benefit from other people's work without giving anything in return...that's like robbing a bakery because you have the right to eat.
The damn bakery will up their revenue before baking anymore bread, Suuuure. Why should they make more if they can expect it to be stolen right away.
(/quote)
Then why don't you go and look at some toddler's doodles if you do not care about quality.
Honestly you seem to believe that manga artists are only there for your entertainment. Basically your point is that you have the right to benefit from other people's work without giving anything in return...that's like robbing a bakery because you have the right to eat.
The damn bakery will up their revenue before baking anymore bread, Suuuure. Why should they make more if they can expect it to be stolen right away.
The quality wouldnt go down for us unless they decide to make some really bad quality drops like printing it on toilet paper or journal paper. Which they will never go down that far. What I meant is that the quality wouldnt go down for the people reading the scans, only for those buying it like.
Exacly not, we dont have the right to steal, we just take it because we are pirates and they have no way of stopping us.
The artists are their to make a living and they still doing great even if we steal from them. No one should get richer on our backs when they work less then us. I have no problem stealing from people richier and greedier than me.
12:07 pm, Nov 30 2006
Posts: 2658
sigh. I think this topic has gone a little too far off topic. locking.
