This is a bit long, so when you have some time, feel free to read.

Why keep living?

Frankly, this is a slightly insulting question. Are you asking my reason for living because I don't believe in an afterlife, or because I don't believe in religion? I live because I want to. Because I want to be with my husband, because I want to achieve my dreams, because I want to achieve my full potential, because I want to have children, because I want to be happy, because I want to be healthy... There are many reasons.

How do you determine what is right and wrong? What does it mean for something to be right/wrong? What is good? What is bad? How do you know? Should one be/behave good/goodly? Why not be/behave bad/badly?

One should behave how one feels best. Gut feelings should always be followed. I don't care why my gut feeling says something, I just follow it because it knows better than my brain. I recently had this conversation with someone, and how I behave is irrelevant of religion. Just because someone wrote down rules in a book before I was born, doesn't mean I'm following those rules if I act a certain way. I follow my own rules because of how I feel.

Do I kill? No, it would make me feel horrible so I don't want to do it. I still remember the first time I ran over a squirrel, and I started crying a lot. I was five minutes away from my destination but I felt so bad I turned home. I'm vegan because I can't stand animal cruelty. I just talked a Christian who would have no problem killing squirrels, dogs, cats, etc but does not because of religion. In this case, I pose this question to you. Who is more good/bad? Me because I can't kill, or him because he only holds back because of "morals"?

Do I steal? I used to a little because of parental upbringing. Do I do it now? No, because I can't hold my back straight full of confidence if I do it, and confidence means more to me. Plus, I've been stolen from, and the feeling is fear and paranoia it instills in the stolen from is not something I wish to create.

Do I lie? I try not to because I don't like the feeling inside when I do lie. Is it wrong to lie? No. I used to be a proficient liar to the point where I could convince you the sky was purple and had no qualms about it. The reason why I stopped is because I don't want to lie to my husband, and the feeling permeated throughout all of my relationships.

It's all about how I feel internally, how my internal compass structures me, and I follow that. I've gone through enough hard times to understand the enjoyment of good ones, and try having more good than bad times. It's a personal choice.

And here's the thing. People who get into philosophical arguments and try to understand philosophy are personally wasting their time. I mean this not as an insult because I loved philosophical discussions. However, I've found much more importance in achieving my personal potential, of being the best wife I can be, of attaining the most happiness I can (in a way in which I approve), in maintaining my best health, rather than think about items of which have no physical consequence. All we need are shelter, love, food, water, sunshine, exercise and sleep. I focus on what I can do now to attain happiness (and thus share it with those around me), rather than focus on items beyond my control. Questions as to how were we created, who created us, etc have no importance. Do were need to know how a car works in order to drive it? We still don't know jack about the human body. Are we going to spend our lives trying to dissect it and learn all we can from it, or just understand its rules, follow them, and keep striving for our happiness?

Hope this helped.

________________
May the curse of Mary Malone and her nine blind illegitimate children chase you so far over the hills of Damnation that the Lord himself can't find you with a telescope. - Irish Curse

I'm not your type. I'm not inflatable.

Cry me a river, build me a bridge and get over it.

Everyone is entitled to be stupid but you're abusing the privilege.

Everyone has a photographic memory, some just don't have film.

I hope you don't mind if I jump in. I suspect the question you want to ask is 'how does one reconcile atheism with moral realism?' Moral realism is the view that normative propositions (e.g. "you shouldn't kill) can be true independently of belief or norm. The worry is that if the truth value of such propositions does not originate from God, there were does it come from?

Many atheists, of course, are not moral realists (as a survey of responses to your question would suggest). There are a number of options for those who are, but here is the view I happen to like:

Moral Instrumentalism: Normative propositions (e.g. "you shouldn't murder") express 'instrumental claims', which can be true or false. So 'you should not kill', really means 'all things considered, it is in your best interests to not kill'. Of course, sometimes it may be in one's best interests to kill, so this view doesn't always get the verdict we want. But I think there is something alluring about the picture it paints: morality according to this view is just a tool used to ensure social cohesion. Since we are a social species and highly dependent on one another, it is plausible that, generally, it is in our best interests to not harm one another.

This view frees us from the need for 'spooky' truth-makers (like Platonic forms or irreducibly normative facts). On the other hand, it leaves us with no objective means to adjudicate between conflicts of interests. So if it really is in Bruno's best interest to murder Tim, then it is the case that Bruno should murder Tim. But keep in mind that it is likely in societies interests (the interest of the majority of persons) to prevent people like Bruno from murdering. So we get a sort of 'butting of heads' between Bruno and the masses. This will likely end in Bruno's incarceration, which also needs to be taken into account when assessing Bruno's best interests. But there isn't some overriding fact to the matter about who should win in these head-butting contests.

I also want to add that this is not a purely egoistical theory of morality. I construe "best interests" broadly, so that it includes any altruistic sentiments or desires of the agent. And I think it is often the case that our interests are best served through things like kindness, mercy, forgiveness, and charity. Unless you're an ass, in which case you'll probably be head-butting with society again.

Death as a choice is final. If there's even the slightest chance of regret, then it shouldn't be sought as there really isn't much to win. Would you choose life if you could change the way you feel or are, if you could just start over untouched? If you'd choose life, then it is not death itself you seek, but the disappearance of the things that make a difference with your current state and the one you hypothetically would gain. It's a means to escape. If it is physically impossible to reach salvation from the desire, then there's nothing to stop you, but otherwise it is a question of perseverance. Giving up on something big is always a pity and holding on might be worth it.




One should try to fulfill one's goals. I don't believe in a set righteousness as nothing is purely black and white. Saving the prey from the predator leads to the demise of the predator. I allow everything as long as you realise the consequences. You might have to pay a greater price than you gain. Being just to others will spare you from most conflicts and is the only way to have anyone else besides your mother care for you, if even her. Behaving in a way that works well in a team is logically functional. Good and bad are human concepts, so there's really no greater will or natural principle to separate or define either, what ever you want their origin to be is up to you and not really of any importance. Being good or in other words, socially responsible is simply useful for things that also require the stake of people other than you.




I find love to be an evolutionary mechanism that supports co-operation and taking care of our young that have a really long span of maturing. It's been overly soaked in sugar and romanticism and it's a really shabby excuse for doing dumb things. It might feel good like any other motivational feeling or chemical sense of reward, like orgasm or the feeling of calm in numbers when facing a wolf. Our brain is simple in that sense. We are prone to being controlled by things that feel good. Rewarding feelings strive to keep us alive and causes us to stick together, as that is how our species is. You can't work as a team if the whole pack is egocentric to the point that the survival of the species is questionable. It's necessary for our survival. We all are egocentric to some point, but it always involves the whole hierarchy of the pack and our position in it. We don't kill each other out of blue to gain minuscule benefit, but if we gain a lot with little to no penalty, we just might, penalty being the rejection of others and us turning into outcasts with a worse chance to procreate and survive in a rural world. Naturally we don't think of all this, but feelings aren't logical, we do not choose them, they simply guide us and back in the day when our species didn't have such a stranglehold of the world, they were of a great necessity. Love is very raw and primal. We just make it wear fancy dresses.

wow.. it's a very good discussion..

fyi, I'm not atheist, actually more to agnostic. Hope you don't mind I'm voicing my opinion here.


You may think my reason is shallow, but personally I think that I only live once, and I wanted to experience many more things, see more things, do more things, etc so I'll continue living.
I admit my reason is really personal, and doesn't apply to all people, because I know some people who said he's better not be alive, not because his personality, nor he's a jerkass or whatever, but his condition is burdening the others around him (though, I really disapprove with that)


"You reap what you sow" and "Treat the others as you want to be treated" is one the basic principles in my life.

________________
My daily websites:
batoto.net, tvtropes.org, 9gag.com

My simple answer is because the world has a lot to offer.


This is a tricky question since one's perspective on good or bad may be different from thier neighbour. My answer is to be diplomatic and manipulative to further one's goal while not causing harm to others. Since, I rather have them progress with me thus helping me to go even further than just keep them as use and throw.

What do you think is beauty? What do you think is goodness? Whatever they may be, they are probably very similar to my concepts of beauty and goodness!

I find these things beautiful and good:

- selflessness, kindness (someone/someones doing good entirely for altruistic reasons, not even to feel good about themselves)

- the truth (yes, truth vs fiction can be argued, but ultimately there is only one truth- no one may necessarily know what it is

- people who (almost) always tell the truth (these people would make great friends)

- honour and respect for all people

- music that comes from the heart, beautiful scenery, surviving in the midst of chaos (without harming others) etc.

I don't find people doing things to get a ticket to heaven or to appease god(s), or to get better afterlives beautiful at all. It's good that they are doing something good, but I don't see any beauty or true 'goodness' in that. I also don't find blind faith beautiful- and I'm not just talking about blind faith in god(s).

By the way, why the patronising tone?
Are you assuming that only people who believe in a christian god are capable of knowing what beauty and goodness is? Please!

Last edited by Nirhtuc at 3:00 am, Aug 19 2012

Is it me or does it seems like OP subtly trolled people? Lots of misunderstandings in here and etc.

By all the non existent, probably divine, and totally not imagined symbolic father/authority figures that I don't believe in, of Olympus......Zim, what hast thou wrought?

You ask me what love is and why to continue to live? Were you not taught the creed of love at your mother's knee, the soppy romantic mush filled into your brain and sinuses by culture and media since the time you could interact with the world around you?

I guess not. You know I am reminded of a old Calvin and Hobbes cartoon where Calvin poses the question of love as a biochemical urge to ensure reproduction and continued survival of species by ensuring proper care of young ones, to his mother, at 2 am. ( Read it and find out her reply, the strip is a classic)

Hey I know all of my cynical and rational fellow manga lovers have given you the answer what love is scientifically and I am not too different from them on this score. I too am a sceptical, cynical rationalist but a very small part of me holds out the hope...... for a personal harem... ...j/k of course

I know that I myself am convinced of love's folly and the bitter end of the heart's spring, but you know fuck it....I will still hold out hope that there is something more...i.e. the whole is greater than the sum of parts and love is more than just evolutionary impulses and brain chemistry....otherwise there is no beauty and I believe that the Universe may not be fair and may not care...but it sure is beautiful (of course I could be horribly wrong and the absence of anything more might be the cruelly beautiful joke the universe plays on me...I am going in circles)

The living question I will answer later....too tired

Oh bloody hell...this thread....

because if it's not trolling, then...

x5

I'm also royally offended. And humored. I cracked up while getting pissed off... that feeling really sucks.

edit: I need to emphasize that point. It really really REALLY sucks.

Since i was not sure if you'll even recognize me as an eligible person to reply on your questions (considering my situation) i'm kinda glad you're looking forward to the second part

Questions are asking are probably connected a lot more to previous part i wrote about that i'll be able to explain in following lines.
If i'd be asked the same questions few years ago i doubt i'd consider them so close as i do now, but i guess in my case it's all connected with self-realization & co.

Anyway....

Well isn't that something we all ask yourself without ever really finding answer? Also i don't think anybody should really forget about the infamous "most people just exist but only few really live" line. Though that does add heavy burden on person. Facing the question i think that as society we should not continue living. Mainly because i think our society is build on wrong moral and values, while those that would actually help us to co-exist in peaceful manner are outrageously ignored and/or even stepped on. Unfortunately the promised end of the world has yet to come so i can either choose to blend in, be an outcast or end my own life. Tried all and hated them all xD (tho the outsider is what i like most of the three and i'm continuing being one, until i find better). So my reasons for living are being upgraded as i'm mentally growing up and different things were as no. 1 in different parts of my life. While i was bulled the only reason i did not end my own life and continue living was because i was sure that better things await for me and at the very end it would really suck not to experience them (today aside from better i'm also looking forward to the hard parts as well). Later on i came to realize that moving/working is also one of the reasons why continue living. Or better said if i don't do it it's the same as being dead. I'm not sure how to explain this. I came to this while i was employee of kindergarten. Most children go to sleep after lunch and some of them have problems to sleep, it's our job help them feel asleep. And once i was doing that the kid next to me feel a sleep and i was laying next to her looking at the ceiling doing nothing and all of a sudden certain anxiety came over me that i souled just do something. It was conditioned response to the fact that i was payed for being there and i though it was not fair to be paid for doing nothing. But thinking back I'm always doing something to make myself busy, even if its just listening to the music. (ok this is probably still not making much of a sense, does it -.-;; ). But currently for the last year and half the reason i'm continue living is because id like to see my ambitions true. But that is the very same reason why i do not want to continue living, or better said move forward in this matter. I find this ambitions very important to me and i'm not sure i'd thake well if i would not achieve the desired outcome, which is probably one of the reasons why i'm having split focus on different things atm. Oh and one of the important reasons i continue living is also to get rid of all concepts other people implanted in me and find my own opinion and believes abut it. I don't think i'll let myself die before i won't achieve that (at least for most of it). Which kinda goes hand in hand with obsession that's similar to yours. Studying peoples behavior, but i prefer to do that through 3rd person POV observations and self experimenting.
The above it's not my real answer to the question >why<, but it's currently the best i can answer with.
BTW i'd very much like to ask you the same question in return if i may (and sry if you allredy answered, i did not have the time to read replies after mine)

Actually i do both, and it's a fact that we all do both. regardless of our own convictions about our-selfs. And both good, and bad things/acts we do can be really small or really big, either why we're all doing both. It just depends from which POV you look at one act. I'm hitchhiking for last 8 years or so, and there is one person that picked me up several times. She said she is doing it because if she can do a good deed she'll do it. Shes obviously a very religious person and i think there was an occasion where she even said that this is the least she can do considering Christ saved us all long time ago. Great, i have a guaranteed pick up car each time she goes in my direction, but from different angel her deed may not be considered as good but as a very selfish one. After all she did use me to satisfy her own need of helping. And that is exactly why one should or should not be/behave good(ly)/bad(ly). Because of your personal need. It's my personal need to be kind to people who i think are similar to me. Usually i'm projecting old images of me on them and i'm trying to help them, but that's more like helping myself (if it helps them that's just a bonus; though in many cases it ends badly but i get the emotional waving so i guess that's OK as well). And sometimes i'm depriving myself a bit to long from others, that's when i find myself i need to be rude to people so they hurt me in return and trigger my emotional waving (emotional waving is something that is needed to me as it confirms that me as my ego i'm still alive and i did not disappear into nothingness). And it's exactly because of these personal need that i can't judge something to be plain good/bad anymore.
The problem is that i have yet to figure out if the personal need is entirely personal or is conditioned with how we're brought up and/or everything else that happens to us in communicating with the world outside.

To the second question "Why continue living? Should one be/behave good/goodly? Why not be/behave bad/badly?"
You live to reproduce , your mind also has mechanisms to make you want to keep on living. You become addicted to these chemicals your mind releases much like a drug. Behaving "badly" is against human nature, doing harm to others takes effort unless it has significant benefits for you humans tend to avoid conflict.
To the question in page 1. Right and wrong.
We have cultural and you could even say brainwashing concepts drilled into our heads since a small age, through television, school, and other means.In reality right or wrong does not exist. There is only what benefits you and what does not. Being nice to those around you for example could have benefits later on. But again there are things that are put in your head when you are young, you could even call them rules. For example I cannot hit women, I have in my anger hit the walls of my house until my fists were bloody when the thought crossed my mind. Hope this was of some help.