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Mangadex going "Legit", groups halting release in response

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7:16 pm, Jun 12 2019
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Copying someone elses summary of the news:
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someone posted screencaps of the main admin talking about eventually pulling a fakku, which prompted multiple groups to delete their shit. This prompted several up loaders and scanalators to sign and the admin insists that this was taken out of context. They insists that they we not planing to go legit and Holo's comments were but a pipedream. Keep in mind that the people who kickstarted this also have vested interest. Most of the groups who signed on with this post are BIG donations whores or have patreons . Many groups were pissed at being criticized/trolled for doing delayed releases, which is what they mean when they say " targeted hate from members of the MD community.".

tl;dr: enterprising scanlators with vested interest to get people to come to there sites attack mangadex for maybe planning their own enterprise.

Another update:
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Apparently joking about mangadex going legit is a common thing on the discord, which prompted the shit in pic 3 (I can't verfiy this as I refuse to use discord). This shit supposedly started because a group called facepalm scans sniped another group (hatigram scans) and called them donation whores. They got pissed that mangadex did nothing against the snipers, which contributed ot here shitfit. Keep in mine that while mangadex hasn't invasivly tried to make money as hard as the scanners that left, they are still trying to make money by selling mangadex™ merchandise and taking donations to keep up site costs. Mangadex doesn't even disclose their donation amounts, but they say if they did it would piss off publishers to retaliate with a cease and desists(I can't say that wrong with how autistic business people are, but you would figure you wouldn't be able to see how much views a manga got if this were the case) and/or get cloudfare to kick them to the curv( this is also somewhat believable to me, with how temperamental cloudfare is with who they support, altohugh I am unaware on there stance on piracy). Still, mangadex has a history of sidesteppnig criticisms and accusation so who knows. Overall looks like a thorough shitstorm. I'm not certain if anybody is worth trusting at this point. You gotta watch your back to not get stabbed in it with this shit.

The "Pic 3" is in the first thread provided below.

Here's the sources of the events for those interested:
http://archive.fo/dSozM
https://mangadex.org/thread/92399
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Dear Mangadex, readers, and all interested parties,

When it was announced that Batoto would be retiring, the scanlation world went into frenzy, looking for a new place to call the scanlation hub. From within this panic, Mangadex (MD) was announced, giving hope to all teams that were reliant on Batoto for their releases. We all assumed that MD would be the next Batoto-esq platform that we had all come to love, respect and cherish. However, this assumption was nothing short of a blunder on our part as a lot of teams collectively started experiencing what we'd call targeted hate from members of the MD community. The source of this hate was quite apparent as MD had become a breeding ground for this hate against scanlation teams that failed to follow the wants of the MD admins/Mods and ally members.

The policies and methods MD employed to bolster their library of content created this rush for people to first upload content (for special roles), this was done assuming all active team leads would agree to this, which was obviously not the case. If teams decided to leave or not support MD, members of the community (call it the vocal minority or not) would head hunt team leads.

However you may interpret this, to us MD was forcing their own platform onto us, trying to make us abandon our sites and our chapter readers for something they had built.

Looking at MD's past and present, we've overlooked a lot of "issues" with MD, their platform and the readers they harbour. However it’s when we look at the future of MD as described by the man himself:

We see that to them, we scanlators are nothing but tools to their team to create something for themselves, fucking over the community like Fakku did (They went legal and removed all their scans for licenced works, fucking over their loyal site users). They're following a model called: Embrace, extend, and extinguish. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_exting uish) Essentially they're using us for their own benefit and once they reach their goal they’ll throw all readers under the bus. There are a lot of things we can mention that we're concerned about, but to come to point...

Looking at the past, present and future of MD, we've collectively decided that we're going to remove our teams and the content we've worked on from Mangadex. We’ve realized MD was never the Batoto we were looking for, just another aggregate site wanting to top em' all.

Thank you to the few who have supported our teams with positive words and encouragement, and thank you to the many that have helped us remove these rose colored glasses we've been forced to wear by showering us with hate.

Signed by:

Hatigarm Scans: Hatigarm
https://mangadex.org/user/2542/hatigarm

Champion scans: SirChampion
https://mangadex.org/user/14787/sirchampion

Impatient scans: PlumJucie
https://mangadex.org/user/17610/plumjucie

Jaiminis Box: Yunomi
https://mangadex.org/user/53762/yunomi

Silent Sky: Everath
https://mangadex.org/user/19451/everath

Shoujo Hearts: Avelys
https://mangadex.org/user/2583/avelys

Ninja Scans: bobl32
https://mangadex.org/user/57121/bobl32

CrossBreed Scans: Cimi
https://mangadex.org/group/1095/crossbreed-scans

Fans Scans: infi

Meraki Scans: celes
https://mangadex.org/user/229/celestialsidonia

Wowe-Returner Scans: Retard_
https://mangadex.org/user/11772/retard_

Another thread on the discussion: http://archive.fo/IJ0wx
https://mangadex.org/thread/92416

Last edited by Transdude1996 at 8:18 pm, Jun 12 2019

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Post #769766
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6:11 pm, Jun 13 2019
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That was just a pretext. The real issue is deeper, but not well-defined. Basically, to many scanlators mdex isn't as scanlator-friendly as they'd like, so they vaguely feel betrayed and choose to treat it just like any other aggregator.

Needless to say, both sides were wrong for taking this out in public rather than trying to work out a better arrangement behind the scenes. The only winners will be the other manga aggregators.

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Post #769777 - Reply to (#769766) by cmertb
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7:51 am, Jun 14 2019
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Quote from cmertb
Needless to say, both sides were wrong for taking this out in public rather than trying to work out a better arrangement behind the scenes.

I disagree. There is nothing wrong with transparency. I can't see how mangadex or the translators would not benefit from public discussion.
To be honest all of this seems weird to me. Mangadex has been extremely group-friendly, too friendly in fact, so friendly that the readers end up paying the price (delayed releases, only groups being able to upload releases, groups being able to delete existing releases, etc).
As for "They went legal and removed all their scans for licenced works, fucking over their loyal site users" ... "we've collectively decided that we're going to remove our teams and the content we've worked on from Mangadex" - they are trying to delete their translations before mangadex deletes them? I think I am missing the logic behind that. In addition the idea that the groups can demand that their translations be removed sounds like some form of hypocritical copyright extremist.

Post #769779 - Reply to (#769777) by installgentoo
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10:46 am, Jun 14 2019
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There is a big difference between "transparency" and "fighting in public". Now, I can understand what your benefit is -- it's in satisfying your curiosity, but I'm pretty sure this "transparency" served neither mdex nor the groups, despite what you imagine.

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Mangadex issued a responce:
https://archive.is/VrCUF
https://mangadex.org/thread/93392
The TL;DR version of it is "This drama started as a result of certain groups feeling like they were losing money. Yes, we do make money ourselves; no, we don't disclose how much or what it goes toward beyond just talking about server costs. We always comply with groups when they request for their content to be removed. We don't care about groups sniping each other. Our site rules are not set in stone, have changed over time to fit the scenario, and we will continue to change them if need be. We are not opposed to the idea of going legit, but it's a far off dream."

Personally I see it as a no win scenario going with either side, and better to just drop both altogether. First of all, scanlators shouldn't be making money in the first place since the entire idea behind this is that it's a project of passion. Second, Crunchyroll was a pirate site before going legit, and we've seen exactly where that road leads. Third, there shouldn't be a "monopoly" in the first place (Whether forced or made out of convience), and just about everyone who's seen the fall of media and creativity on the internet over the past several years would undoubtedly agree to that.

Last edited by Transdude1996 at 4:44 pm, Jun 14 2019

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I just wanted to say thanks, Transdude 1996, for the link to Crunchyroll. I plan to read up on that.

As for my opinion... well. As far as I'm aware, there was also some thing about community members being rude to the groups, and the mods doing too little, and other stuff like that.
Mangadex is probably really not all that perfect, but treating it the same as other aggregator sites feels very hypogrisy, considering they took down all the content from those scanlators on their request and accepted their choice, without making a big drama of it.

As for them going legit - well, something great could come from it, too. And let's not act as if there wouldn't be some Mangadex 2 popping up the week after the Original went legit and deleted most of the manga content. It's the internet, people.

Post #769789 - Reply to (#769779) by cmertb
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1:13 am, Jun 15 2019
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Quote from cmertb
There is a big difference between "transparency" and "fighting in public".

The only difference is that "fighting in public" is a subset of "transparency".

Quote from cmertb
but I'm pretty sure this "transparency" served neither mdex nor the groups

At worst it does not serve nor harm them. At best it serves them. Either way it serves the ones from the public who are interested in the issue. There is nothing negative with that.

Quote from Transdude1996
We are not opposed to the idea of going legit

Now, this is certainly an issue, as there is the danger that at any point they might start deleting everything. That being said, there is already the danger of mangadex dying at any time as it is a centralised service - just recently they enabled the cloudflare protection thing, which blocked a lot of users that use proxies and tor from visiting the site.
I believe that the solution to that is not blindly trusting the admin of a service not to go legit or not kill the service at any time - instead my belief is that the proper solution to the issue is to support decentralized and censorship-resistant approaches to sharing manga. Think of torrents, ipfs, freenet, etc.

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Why would anyone care? Endless other readers exist and will forever exist. Proper groups also release their stuff on their own and reader type databases are thus a luxury. And then there is the fact that all of this is piracy... You know, the most nonconformist shit ever. Grow up and host your own releases and/or release your scans through as many avenues as possible into the wild and let the internet take care of the archival process.

Many scanlation groups further have an anti-reader stance. Those won´t care anyway about reader site XY.

Edit: I looked it up and mangadex only existed since 2018. How did the scanlation scene survive without it? Did it even exist before? Nobody knows...

Last edited by residentgrigo at 11:04 am, Jun 16 2019

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Post #769825 - Reply to (#769789) by installgentoo
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10:42 am, Jun 16 2019
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I'm sorry, you don't know what you're talking about. Each of the participants had a load of shit dumped on them in the comments (and not only on mdex) by various leechers who are as uninformed and self-righteous as you are, and then they had to spend time and energy fuming about it in their private discords, and post various statements clarifying their positions and disproving allegations and so on, also leading to hardening their respective stances. It was naturally all very beneficial to the community. Not.

"Transparency" as a concept of obvious value is used only in democratic societies, to actually enable democracy to function, i.e. so that the ultimate decision makers (the people) can make informed decisions. Scanlation is not a democracy. You can't have democracy in a community where only a tiny fraction of it contributes something of value.

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Post #769827 - Reply to (#769825) by cmertb
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12:14 pm, Jun 16 2019
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If I may inquire, hasn't the revelation of this entire debacle shown that there are a good amount of scanlators who want to drive groups out of the scene due to petty disputes or greed, and shown that Mangadex has no reservations about the possibility of going legit and that they already are making money? How is this in any way NOT beneficial for the community in exposing them to the intentions the various players?

Quote from cmertb
Scanlation is not a democracy. You can't have democracy in a community where only a tiny fraction of it contributes something of value.

You do realize that you just described every single entertainment industry ever, right? And, that current events are showing just how wrong you are?

Back in 2012, 6 companies controlled 90% of the media produced in the U.S. (I believe that number has been reduced to 4 or 5 now due to acquisitions and trades), and, if you actually look at the way things are now, all of them are losing money. Disney is losing money, Time Warner is losing money, CBS is losing money, Viacom is losing, Hell, despite breaking all sorts of records, Avengers: Endgame is expected to be that last "big" blockbuster with how Americans are not going to the theatres anymore. This is also leaving out the fact that comic book sales are tanking, music sales are tanking, video game sales are tanking. You'd think that an entire generation of people died, except they haven't. They're just in opposition of traditional ventures, and are being more aware with their finances and who they support.

So, bringing this back, what is this that I hear you saying about how democracy cannot effect those few that create things? And, before bringing up that scanlation is piracy, let's remember that studies have come out stating that piracy either doesn't effect or even helps sales.

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Post #769828 - Reply to (#769827) by Transdude1996
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12:39 pm, Jun 16 2019
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This false analogy is going in even more ridiculous directions.

Do I really need to spell out how scanlation is different from the entertainment industry, or you will manage to spot the elephant in the room without outside assistance?

If you can't figure it out, here's the answer:
Spoiler (mouse over to view)
People who pay money for work are contributors. They pay for the creation. In scanlation, most people contribute exactly nothing (and some contribute aggravation on top of nothing).

So now the two of you can entertain me with tales of how it's so very very important to keep non-contributors apprised of everything that's going on. Because otherwise, what? What will happen if you are not aware of all this drama?


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Post #769830 - Reply to (#769828) by cmertb
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1:50 pm, Jun 16 2019
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Quote from cmertb
Do I really need to spell out how scanlation is different from the entertainment industry

That you're translating a piece of work from one language to another, and making an "illegal" release of that work because you cannot patch it in like with legally obtained copies of anime and games, and it being a work of passion where the only people seeking at a source of income are even more pathetic than the hacks working at localization companies (Because, then, you are engaging in literal piracy as opposed to a legal "grey area" )?

Quote from cmertb
In scanlation, most people contribute exactly nothing (and some contribute aggravation on top of nothing).

Again, that's every single entertainment industry, ever, since the beginning of time.

Quote from cmertb
So now the two of you can entertain me with tales of how it's so very very important to keep non-contributors apprised of everything that's going on. Because otherwise, what? What will happen if you are not aware of all this drama?

Keeping using Mangapark, and other alternatives, because I already dropped Mangadex a few months ago due to them going on about "Muh morals" in regards to hosting PIRATED content, in addition to them already censoring credit pages. Long story short, the only difference between before and after finding this out is that, before, I just had my suspensions based off of their actions, meanwhile, now, my suspicions have been confirmed thanks to official word coming out.

EDIT: Oh, I forgot, another reason this needed to happen is because it's always hilarious to see two groups of monkeys beating the shit out of each other, both of them screaming about who's morally superior (Spoiler: neither of them), and serve as a constant reminder that those screeching about "muh morals" probably have something that they're trying to hide.

Last edited by Transdude1996 at 2:24 pm, Jun 16 2019

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Post #769831 - Reply to (#769830) by Transdude1996
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Whatever you may think of scanlation and piracy, it has zero relevance to the argument I'm making, which is that it's a mistake to encourage people like you to provide their no doubt "valuable" opinion on what goes on in scanlation. Your subsequent gloating pretty much makes my point for me, so I rest my case.

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Post #769832 - Reply to (#769831) by cmertb
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3:20 pm, Jun 16 2019
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Quote from cmertb
Whatever you may think of scanlation and piracy, it has zero relevance to the argument I'm making, which is that it's a mistake to encourage people like you to provide their no doubt "valuable" opinion on what goes on in scanlation.

What more is there to understand about a group obtaining the raws in some way, someone translating the comic, someone editing that translation, then someone inserting that translation into the comic (With TL notes where needed), proofreading it, and then releasing the chapter? There's no other drama that needs to take place, except when a group blatantly releases a terrible translation.

Or are you referring to drama such as the cartel that served as gatekeepers on Bato.to and nyaa.si? Or, are you referring to other drama such as Mangafox, where they made money off of scanslations other groups made, placed watermarks on all their stolen scanlations, and all their releases where of very inferior quality to the original?

Last edited by Transdude1996 at 3:56 pm, Jun 16 2019

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