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New Poll - Ecchi Definition

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6:01 am, Mar 14 2020
Posts: 9735


This week's poll was suggested by Transdude1996. Where do you draw the line with the definition of ecchi? If you don't even know what it means, how are you a fan of manga? Even if you don't like it, you should at least know what it is! Go read its Wikipedia article!

You can submit poll ideas here
http://www.mangaupdates.com/showtopic.php?tid=3903

Previous Poll Results:
Question: Opinion on groups that scanlate the first chapter of a series but then do nothing else for ages
Choices:
Not a good idea, but oh well - votes: 1014 (35.8%)
It's alright. Natural way of life - votes: 431 (15.2%)
Love it - votes: 111 (3.9%)
Hate it - votes: 1149 (40.6%)
No opinion - votes: 126 (4.5%)
There were 2831 total votes.
The poll ended: March 13th 2020

People don't like waiting

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Post #774796
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mmm...
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6:29 am, Mar 14 2020
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Subjectively I think Nudity is fine, but sex is too much but if we're going by the implementation it seems like Sex is fine as long as their privates are not shown since there are many instances where they show sex in ecchi manga mmm...

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Post #774800
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11:41 am, Mar 14 2020
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I went with "Anything more detailed than the basic outlines of the act is too vulgar", but I think it's a bit more complicated than any of the answers. Not massively complicated, but...
I'd say nudity is out. Typical anime/manga semi-nudity, with the outlines, but magically no nipples and "Ken/Barbie-crotch" and all that, is okay.
And as for sex.... if you don't actually see it or any of that (and it keeps the the no nudity rule, above), just the "outsides" of it... you pretty much just see that sex is happening... that's fine. If the sex is properly shown... then you're in porn (i.e. hentai) territory.

Naturally, these are my standards. (and, of course, the poll is about what we personally think)

Official Japanese standards, however, seem to be VERY different.
I remember when Valkyrie Drive: Mermaid came, and I gave the first episode a shot (despite misgivings that it might be far too fan-service-y, for my likings) ...and discovered that, despite not being labelled as porn, it clearly was.
After a quick search, I concluded that Japan apparently seems to classify what the West terms "hardcore porn" as porn ...whilst "softcore porn", (and I'd say the distinction is kinda pointless, when it comes to yuri, as in that case) is apparently not porn at all.
Very bizarre.

Last edited by zarlan at 11:47 am, Mar 14

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Scan Master
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1:04 pm, Mar 14 2020
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I kind of have a combination of answers.

Nudity is fine, but sex is too much.
However, sex is fine as long as there isn't any visible nudity.

Basically, my opinion is you can have either sex or nudity in ecchi, but not both. If you have both, then it's hentai.
Also, if a series has some nudity except during the sex scenes, I still consider it ecchi.

For example, in Oku-san you sometimes see the main character or others topless, and sometimes they're completely nude but without much detail below the waist (such as in bathhouse scenes), but any sex that happens in the series happens out of view, usually with the focus being put on how uncomfortable other characters are with having to listen to Oku-san having sex with her husband.
Essentially, nothing in the series is intended to be hardcore pornography, and anything sexual is done with the focus of either teasing the reader, or to aid the comedy side of the series.

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Lone Wanderer
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1:35 pm, Mar 14 2020
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Nudity is fine, but sex is too much. When I see the "ecchi" tag without an accompanying "adult," "smut" or "hentai" tag, I'm generally not expecting to see sex, no matter how non-graphic.

Ecchi is what I consider to be "fanservice when actual sex acts can't/won't be depicted," so it makes no sense to me why something that can be tagged as smut or hentai would just be tagged with ecchi instead. OTOH, mature and adult-rated series which have sex acts depicted in a non-pornographic way shouldn't have the ecchi/smut/hentai tags at all, I think. Sex alone doesn't make something pornographic - only the excessive focus on it in the story/by the characters and the way it's drawn and presented can determine that.

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2:12 pm, Mar 14 2020
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I'll be honest. I hate echhi. I can't answer the poll, as essentially ecchi is all that's nsfw, and it really depends on how it's done. As it is, I'm tempted to say that anything that's more than I'll accept as readable ecchi should be hentai or adult, so well, outholding my vote on this one.

Post #774809 - Reply to (#774795) by lambchopsil
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4:41 pm, Mar 14 2020
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Quote from lambchopsil
When does ecchi content go too far...

The moment that:
Spoiler (mouse over to view)
They start holding hands and delivering headpats. Seriously, that shit is unbelievable lewd.


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9:15 pm, Mar 14 2020
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Many people obviously don't know that there's a difference between ecchi and hentai, at least in the west. So many uninformed people chose "There is no limit" or "sex is fine as long as their privates are not shown". Which are wrong answers for this question. Ecchi is usually not as explicit as hentai, and generally doesn't even show any sexual act.
So I think people should get a bit more informed before answering this question. But since the majority of users here are teens or young people who don't even bother getting informed, especially if it's about anything related to sex, it's hopeless. Sigh. 🙄

Post #774812 - Reply to (#774795) by lambchopsil
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9:39 pm, Mar 14 2020
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Quote from lambchopsil
People don't like waiting


I think it's more like they don't want the candy on the mouth if they can't taste it.

And about the new poll, "Anything more detailed than the basic outlines of the act is too vulgar", because more of that is censored Hentai (borderline H).



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11:34 pm, Mar 14 2020
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I think the difference between ecchi and hentai is that hentai revolves around sex while ecchi not really around sex but more about innuendo. But if ecchi happens to have uncensored sex in couple of chapters there is no problem...
So there is no limit. Just context dependent.

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1:33 am, Mar 15 2020
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One of the worst polls we ever had with skewed answers that don´t make sense and a bait contribution by the OP of the question. The triple crown of trolling.

Here is what wiki gives us, that´s my answer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecchi
Ecchi (エッチ, etchi, pronounced [et.tɕi]) is an often used slang term in the Japanese language for playfully sexual actions. As an adjective, it is used with the meaning of "sexy", "dirty" or "naughty"; as a verb, ecchi suru (エッチする or Hする) means “to have sex” or, as a noun, to describe someone of lascivious behavior. It is perhaps softer than the Japanese word ero (エロ from Eros), and does not imply perversion in the way hentai does. The word ecchi has been adopted by fans of Japanese media to describe works with sexual overtones. In Japanese, the word ecchi is often used to describe a person's conduct, but in fandom, it has come to be used to refer to softcore or playful sexuality, as distinct from the word hentai, which connotes perversion or fetishism. Works described as ecchi do not show sexual intercourse or genitalia, but sexual themes are referenced. Ecchi themes are a type of fan service, and can be found in most comedy shōnen and seinen manga and harem anime.

I can´t argue with any of this. I know it when I see it, etc.
You may notice that Japan has a different outlook on this as we used a word of their vocabulary that means one thing and somewhat changed it to apply it to comics. The same even applies to the words hentai and manga. Kinda.

@calstine Do not tag Ecchi with Smut or the 2 female demographics and do not tag Smut with the 2 male demographics. Both are the same tag, just with the gender demographics flipped.
Neither Ecchi nor Smut nor any of the 4 gender demographics go with Hentai, which is technically a form of publication of its own.
The only complication arises from all the (often Korean) webcomic pornos. They tend to run on webcomic sites that feature regular webtoon. Actual hentai doesn´t in Japan. Seinen/Josei + Adult seems right to me but you never really know. Nearly all of them are neither Ecchi nor Smut though. Just plain old porn.

TED talk over. Just remember the wiki link when you tag and it really ain´t hard to spot porn and differentiate from softcore porn. Your mother could do it. Hardly a manga only phenomenon too.

edit: @zarlan TED Talk - Revengeance Edition:
Your example isn´t considered porn outside of Japan either but it is pornographic, we can agree on that. (So Seinen + Adult.) Every Seinen/Josei manga out there can be bought by an underage person without problems and not just in Japan. Mostly. That why it's much more lucrative to run a Seinen magazine focused on sex manga (Hakusensha and Shonen Gahosha do just that) and just pretend that you aren´t a pornographer while (mostly) relying on actual hentai artists to fill such magazines. The Yaoi market says hello too and I never said that publishing needs to make a lick of sense. That´s why 2 out of 6 volumes of Aki Sora got a boot to the head but nothing changed in the end. Maybe one day but who even cares anymore in a world of digital distribution. See my pornwha notes and hello Pixiv. A .net site. Not a .jp site. BIG distinction right there. Mangaka now throw the uncensored pages of the (underage) genitalia they drew for their publishers on Pixiv, put a price on it and call it a day. I wonder how long till the hammer drops there... and how hard? I never said that publishing needs to make a lick of sense 😛 .

Then we have non-Japanese comics. The award-winning and bestselling Saga by Image has hardcore sex and closeups of genitalia in a way that porn can´t have in Japan without committing a crime. It came out in Japan. I wonder if they just pixeled the whole shebang?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Japan

Last edited by residentgrigo at 2:12 am, Mar 15

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Post #774821 - Reply to (#774818) by residentgrigo
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6:18 am, Mar 15 2020
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Why is there so much autism in one post about a poll simply asking how far things have to go before you start sweating?

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Post #774823 - Reply to (#774810) by amy_levi
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10:13 am, Mar 15 2020
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Quote from amy_levi
Many people obviously don't know that there's a difference between ecchi and hentai, at least in the west.

In Japan (i.e. in Japanese) there is ZERO difference.
Hentai, H, and ecchi are all the same thing. (and they aren't a manga/anime thing, but a general thing, covering everything, real/"live action" stuff, literature, and anything else, as well as manga/anime)
...and it's not the usual term, for what we (in "the West" ) would term "ecchi" or "hentai", in many cases.

Last edited by zarlan at 10:39 am, Mar 15

Post #774824 - Reply to (#774818) by residentgrigo
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10:39 am, Mar 15 2020
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Quote from residentgrigo
skewed answers that don´t make sense and a bait contribution by the OP of the question

How so?
Granted, the OP is a troll, in general, but I don't really see any issues with this poll in particular. Certainly not the ones you mention. In fact your statement, here, doesn't make any sense, IMO.

Also, the quote you cite from Wikipedia (NOT "wiki"! Wikipedia!), doesn't really make sense.
It, in no way, reflects how it is actually used. (granted, it's about where we draw the line, how we personally define the terms, but... we need to at least be talking about roughly the same terms. We need to at least be speaking the same language)

"Ecchi" is used for non-porn, that has a bit of sexiness. A little innuendo, skimpy clothing, someone naked with fog/objects in the way of seeing the private parts... That kind of thing.
Nothing that could be counted as porn.
That would be hentai, after all.

"Hentai" is manga/anime porn.
The Japanese word hentai, connotes "perversion or fetishism", sure, but the English (or rather "Western" ) loan-word, i.e. the way the word is used in "the West", doesn't have any such connotations. It just indicates that it is Japanese drawn/animated porn.
This is how the terms are actually used.
(ass to where you draw the line between them... well, that's the topic in question, here)

...and remember:
This poll is about the terms "ecchi" and "hentai".
Not エッチ and 変態.
Quote
I know it when I see it, etc.

The Wikipedia article you are claiming to summarise with that statement, does not, in any way, suggest anything along the lines of "I know it when I see it".

That's certainly not the Japanese standard, BTW.
They always go with the letter of the law/rule. Even when it makes no sense ...and they typically don't fix the letter of the law/rule, to make it more sensible.
Quote
Do not tag Ecchi with Smut or the 2 female demographics and do not tag Smut with the 2 male demographics. Both are the same tag, just with the gender demographics flipped.
Neither Ecchi nor Smut nor any of the 4 gender demographics go with Hentai, which is technically a form of publication of its own.

Ehm...
Ecchi indicates that the work isn't pornographic. A bit of sexiness, suggestiveness, and the like, but nothing actually pornographic

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Your mother could do it.

...
You clearly don't know my mother! (I envy you that, BTW)
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Your example isn´t considered porn outside of Japan either

You're telling me that fully nude (vagina aside, admittedly) women, so fully exposed breasts, nipple and all, and full sex scenes (again, no showing of the vagina ...but aside from that...), isn't considered as porn?
(by that definition almost no lesbian porn, actually counts as porn, BTW)
...and how could you possibly claim that "Softcore Pornography" doesn't count as "Pornography"?
Quote
but it is pornographic

A work that is pornographic, is pornography.
By definition!
"Pornographic" doesn't mean "porn-ish". It means something that has a nature inherent of pornography ...or rather, pornography is a thing that is pornographic in nature.
Quote
I wonder if they just pixeled the whole shebang?

Nah, they'll just put some censor bars over the genitals.
That's apparently all they do.
Not that I get why they even do that, mind you. Not allowing the showing of genitals, in porn...
Japanese censorship laws, make no sense...

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12:31 pm, Mar 15 2020
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The most unproductive contribution yet came from zarlan´s 2nd post. Suprise? No. A bad look? Yes. Even the prudish MPAA would disagree with the assessment that softcore porn = porn. That´s how that definition came about. The gap between an X (now NC-17) and an R rating can be only a couple of frames after all but none of this is a problem with anime as the home video market and now streaming can go out as "Unrated" in the US.
The usual doc on the topic of the MPAA. 14 years old and hasn´t aged a day: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Film_Is_Not_Yet_Rated
Such an institution doesn´t exist for the book and thus comic market. Neither in the US, not in Japan nor over here. That´s why the manga kiddy porn market managed to become such a Kraken.

I wonder where the responses will end up when the pages pile up at the end. The race to the bottom is on. Go for the gold! I at least got an active podium to educate on tagging practices and it´s nice to see a wiki article lead-in where every assessment is spot on. I was about to change "most" to something like often in can be found in most comedy shōnen and seinen but works as Gundam or Eva have Echi elements and those aren´t even comedies. Jump manga can´t live without it either. It really is "most". Japanese society has problems if I consider the average age of our anime heroines.

An actually interesting version of this question can be made. I´ll get on it one of these days.
I had to take a college course on what amounted to customer evaluation for a whole semester. One of the worst by a mile. Shudder. The final exam was making a poll (I chose the topic cinema for my group) and documenting it but you don´t even need to finish elementary school to notice how bizarre answers like Characters should be wearing (regular) clothes all the time are. A lack of grasp of the English language is equally apparent.
Long story short. Result graphs tell a story if you did it right and you can´t have contradicting answers. Now look at the near equal molehills on the left and the many contradictions. Lol. As in this made me laugh out loud in RL 🤣.

Edit: I just saw that linked doc is "unrated" as it got an NC-17 (it features footage from porn) on the first try but still made it on Netflix. Like I wrote. The web and digital distribution made the whole film (or game) rating debate a tad obsolete. The glut of pornhwa and the current uncensored hentai that is bypassing Japan´s criminal code is proof of that. The goose is cooked. Censorship of "art" today is more about appealing to certain markets (like China) than anything else.

I at least got where some of the angry parents who used to protest with my edgy entrainment came from. It seems today that all you see is violence in movies and sex on TV. But where are those good old fashion values on which we used to rely and all of that but the rather young, always male and suspiciously white Stormfront rejects of today who now took the "debate" over by taking any meaning out of the word censorship with missing vagina bones "discussion"... those are the devil. Our poll designer cares so much about so-called censorship that we get calls to dox people/sites from him on a regular basis hidden behind "censorship" dog whistles. Remember what this site had moderation? Me neither.

PS: Some, actually a lot, of the modern Ecchi manga draw the airbrushed nipples, anuses and the partial vulvas/penises back in for the print and the paid digital versions. Stuff like that is what needs to be factored into a coherent questionnaire on this topic. The whole thing is a convoluted moving target.

Last edited by residentgrigo at 1:10 pm, Mar 15

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