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Post #787752 - Reply to (#787750) by AquarianDemocrat
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5:36 am, Dec 28 2020
Posts: 320


Quote from AquarianDemocrat
Japan has one of the lowest crime rates in the world. This includes a very low rate of crimes against children.

Whilst I agree that there is zero evidence of loli/shota porn being, even indirectly, harmful…
The situation in regards to sexual exploitation of children, in Japan, is not at all as good as you think.

…and some of the sexual exploitation of (genuine IRL) children that happens in Japan, occurs without it appearing in the crime rates.
Because they aren't crimes.
Due to laws with rather sizeable loopholes
…and Japan is all about following the letter of the law, and who cares about the spirit of it. (this is true in general, and not just with this issue)
If people find a loophole, they don't change the law to fix it.
They just let it be.

I suggest you try to find, and watch, "Stacey Dooley Investigates - Young Sex For Sale In Japan".
It is…
Quite disturbing.
(IIRC, it does mention loli/shota and says it should be banned, which is wrong, but… most of the documentary is about real people, rather than drawings… The stuff it says about that, can't really be disputed)

Post #787753
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5:55 am, Dec 28 2020
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I say NO.

A question to you who vote "Yes". Would you also ban games, comics, manga, books or movies that depict killing people? Because that is also very much illegal if you do it for real...

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Post #787754 - Reply to (#787752) by zarlan
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6:14 am, Dec 28 2020
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Quote from zarlan
I suggest you try to find, and watch, "Stacey Dooley Investigates - Young Sex For Sale In Japan".

You talking about the BBC doc that branded Yuyushiki as child porn?
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I remember watching that. That entire thing was hilarious with how she kept getting BTFOed around Tokyo; especially when the cops went after her for illegally filming minors (In Japan, filming or photographing anyone underage, without a face covering, and without parental or guardian permission is ILLEGAL) at that maid cafe and then tried to pass it off as "the cops are defending the underground child porn industry".

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Post #787760 - Reply to (#787750) by AquarianDemocrat
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11:32 am, Dec 28 2020
Posts: 82


Quote from AquarianDemocrat
Japan has one of the lowest crime rates in the world. This includes a very low rate of crimes against children. While loli/shota is gross I can only assume that it's a neutral/positive from a crime prevention standpoint. ...


This is why it's important to understand that media often reflects the state of the world. Japan's crime rate isn't necessarily low; it's different. Yakuza exist; they are VERY real. What they do and how they work might be exaggerated in manga, but they've done some really horrible things (such as manipulating government officials and businesses) and some really good things (such as aiding in disaster relief). Japan has a CHRONIC problem with stalkers, molesters, and sexual assault because women are still treated more as brides-to-be than... y'know... people with aspirations beyond the bedroom and the kitchen. Adding to that, vocal survivors of these assaults are often perceived as shameful because drawing any attention that does not positively reflect on one's reputation is still often considered bad; so, a LOT of sexual assault goes unreported.

The latter INCLUDES sexual assault against adolescents. It is no coincidence that persistently in manga and anime, another person will learn of the sexual assault of a youth, but then NOT REPORT IT. It's not necessarily that Japan condones underage relations—In a really spectacular show of trying to move beyond a darker past, even though the constitution still lists age of consent as 13, the majority of cities and even wards have raised that age to 18, and, culturally, many people stick with the legal definition of "adult" in Japan and still wait another two years until 20. The problem, again, comes down to public reputation and certain difficulties in the Japanese legal system (often affected by public reputation).

Japan is actively wrangling with sexualization of children, just like any other country, and a big part of that is the "loli-shota-moe" conversation. I won't pretend I have the perfect solution to the issue, but I think an important change is for fashion culture to reclaim the original Japanese term of "doll fashion." Initially, lolita fashion was referred to as "doll" (or "doru" ), and the "lolita" term was only coined afterward in an article in a magazine. It's suspected that MANY who participated in the Japanese fashion scene started using the word without actually knowing where it came from (like "gaslighting" in English—Hi, it's from a really good film called "Gaslight"; I recommend it). However, as the word became more popular and spread beyond the community, there were people who DID know what it meant and that seems to be where things began to get dark 🙁 So, yeah, I like "doll fashion" because it captures the whimsy of the style; it's technically unisex; and, it doesn't refer to children.

Post #787761 - Reply to (#787753) by Aremon
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11:45 am, Dec 28 2020
Posts: 82


Quote from Aremon
I say NO.

A question to you who vote "Yes". Would you also ban games, comics, manga, books or movies that depict killing people? Because that is also very much illegal if you do it for real...


This WAS an issue, which is why many current games have you playing as someone who's legally ALLOWED to shoot at people who shoot at them (soldiers, detectives, etc.) or have you killing non-human characters (demons, zombies, etc.) or characters in extreme situations (such as an apocalypse or war). So, if you can name a situation in which preying upon children is EVER valid, then this argument works.

Post #787762 - Reply to (#787760) by Carmella
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12:13 pm, Dec 28 2020
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Quote from Carmella
Quote from AquarianDemocrat
Japan has one of the lowest crime rates in the world. This includes a very low rate of crimes against children. While loli/shota is gross I can only assume that it's a neutral/positive from a crime prevention standpoint. ...


This is why it's important to understand that media often reflects the state of the world. Japan's crime rate isn't necessarily low; it's different. Yakuza exist; they are VERY real. What they do and how they work might be exaggerated in manga, but they've done some really horrible things (such as manipulating government officials and businesses) and some really good things (such as aiding in disaster relief). Japan has a CHRONIC problem with stalkers, molesters, and sexual assault because women are still treated more as brides-to-be than... y'know... people with aspirations beyond the bedroom and the kitchen. Adding to that, vocal survivors of these assaults are often perceived as shameful because drawing any attention that does not positively reflect on one's reputation is still often considered bad; so, a LOT of sexual assault goes unreported.

The latter INCLUDES sexual assault against adolescents.

There's a problem with your logic. First of all, if things really were that bad, why haven't other countries taken measures to expose that Japan is technically lying about their absurdly low crime rates, that would cause any thinking person to raise their eyebrow? You cannot report such record lows without someone demanding how such a thing is even possible in one of the most developed nations in the world. And, you CERTAINLY wouldn't need to send in a camera crew to make a documentary that's nothing but slander, because the evidence would be more than available to prove your point. Second, why are you assuming that Japan is the only country lying about their crime rates? Using the U.S. as an example, despite having a near 30 year decline in crime, the FBI plays games with their "criminal charges" definitions that end up significantly altering the actual numbers, and California's Proposition 47 "reduced crime rates" despite all evidence stating otherwise.

Quote from Carmella
So, if you can name a situation in which preying upon children is EVER valid, then this argument works.

Well, there's a recent game that's based in a city with the "highest crime rates in the world", in a world that's suppose to be "beyond hope", yet you cannot kill street urchins despite it being a perfectly reasonable thing to happen in said world.

Last edited by Transdude1996 at 12:19 pm, Dec 28

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Post #787765 - Reply to (#787761) by Carmella
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2:24 pm, Dec 28 2020
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Quote from Carmella
This WAS an issue, which is why many current games have you playing as someone who's legally ALLOWED to shoot at people who shoot at them (soldiers, detectives, etc.) or have you killing non-human characters (demons, zombies, etc.) or characters in extreme situations (such as an apocalypse or war). So, if you can name a situation in which preying upon children is EVER valid, then this argument works.


Unfortunately for you, this was never an issue. The only reason the big companies are doing this is because China is kind of a big market (with extremely strict rules about blood and violence).
Btw, fairly sure, last time I played my latest fantasy RPG I wasn't legally allowed in that world to slaughter innocent civilians but I did it anyway. Weird. Does that mean I'm a mass murder now?

FICTION and REALITY are two different things. Are we back in the 90's now? Cause apparently Mortal Kombat is again creating serial killers all over the planet. 🙄

Funnily enough peopole have been looking into the other direction, if taking outlets away from people to "harmlessly follow their interests" increases the occurence of harmful actions and iirc that actually showed way more statistical relevance than the other way... But of course nobody would talk about this because it makes for a way better headline to say "VIDEO GAMES TURN CHILDREN INTO MASS MURDERERS".

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Post #787767 - Reply to (#787760) by Carmella
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6:23 pm, Dec 28 2020
Posts: 320


Quote from Carmella
it's important to understand that media often reflects the state of the world.

Such as how it is common for young school girls to get molested on trains/buses, and how they normally just stay silent and let it happen, seemingly even more afraid of people realising what it being done to them, than of what is being done to them.
…and how peeking at naked girls/women, without their consent, is just "boys being boys".
Just simply what guys do.

I can't count how many times I have been deeply sickened, by girls being worried about the risk of a guy or guys doing what amounts to a serious sexual crime, because they are, after all "healthy boy(s)".
What the hell is healthy, about violating someone!?
…and why do you choose to be with people, you suspect would do such atrocious acts!?
(note: this does not include being worried about, say, being alone in a house with ones boyfriend …as it's more likely a worry about what they might get tempted/convinced to agree to, [and not necessarily regret, either, but…] rather than being forced)
…and then there is all the instances of invalid consent (Japanese society has yet to get a proper understanding of proper consent…), or just completely inarguable rape, of a character by their love interest who they get together with (despite the rape, which typically isn't presented as in any way bad), that is not all that rare. (especially in yaoi, I've heard)

So the view of what counts as a crime/violation, is rather off, and victims are, (really quite sickeningly) ashamed and shamed, despite having done absolutely nothing wrong.
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because women are still treated more as brides-to-be than... y'know... people with aspirations beyond the bedroom and the kitchen.

It is a worryingly common and international problem, that women tend not to be seen as people (incels being an extreme example, but it's an issue even more commonly)
…but Japan is certainly among the worst and most backwards, among developed nations, in this regard.
With women mainly just housewives-to-be, who only work until they find a husband, which they need to get before age 25.
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I won't pretend I have the perfect solution to the issue, but I think an important change is for fashion culture to reclaim the original Japanese term of "doll fashion."

Japans problems with loli/shota predates, and exists separate to, "doll fashion".
Quote
This WAS an issue, which is why many current games have you playing as someone who's legally ALLOWED to shoot/…/

Eh, no.
It has never been an issue (aside from moral panic idiots getting upset about it, which they will still do, as long as they contain violence of any kind), and new games don't all have you "legally" shoot people.

Also, the question of a link between fictional violence and real life violence has been very thoroughly studied, and the results are very clear:
There is none.
Period.

Last edited by zarlan at 6:33 pm, Dec 28

Post #787769 - Reply to (#787767) by zarlan
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7:10 pm, Dec 28 2020
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Quote from zarlan
…but Japan is certainly among the worst and most backwards, among developed nations, in this regard.
With women mainly just housewives-to-be, who only work until they find a husband, which they need to get before age 25.

I agree and disagree with some of your points, but this is the part I strongly disagree with. What is the matter with having one parent staying at home to raise the kids, meanwhile the other provides funds for the family? Do you actually think the West's progressive stance of "Both parents work, and the kid raises themselves, or are raised by the TV/teachers/government" is better?

Also, what about the women that willingly drop out of the workforce to become a parent? Yes, that happens, no one forces them to do it.

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Post #787773 - Reply to (#787769) by Transdude1996
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10:06 pm, Dec 28 2020
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Quote from Transdude1996
What is the matter with having one parent staying at home to raise the kids, meanwhile the other provides funds for the family?


There’s nothing wrong with this. The problem is when society places that expectation solely on women, limiting the prospects of an entire gender. If a couple feels that childcare is inadequate or can’t afford it, they should discuss and decide between themselves who will stay at home. There should be no assumption that the woman will or has to.

Post #787776 - Reply to (#787773) by hkanz
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12:33 am, Dec 29 2020
Posts: 971


And, does this same notion also apply to men?

If you want to talk about "systematic sexism" that exists in Japan, what about the expectation that growing males are expected to take an office job that demands them to work 100+ hours in a six-day work week (Plus offsite late-night "meetings" they are practically required to attend in order to make it look like they're a loyal employee)? A career that ends up destroying their lives because:
- Japanese boomers bought into the retirement and welfare meme that the military government established over a century go, and they cannot have their retirement if the next generation doesn't pay for everything and organize their welfare plans, so they guilt the next generation of males into "doing their part"
- They only see their wife and/or kids only once a week (Sundays), end up resting majority of the time in order to recover from work, and practically live as a stranger in their own home, yet their wife has the gull to bitch about how "lazy" he is and is at a complete loss of why he ends up cheating on her
- The newer generation doesn't have the time to find a spouse because of the above reasons mentioned in the previous point, so they find escape in media in order to give purpose to their lives, only for their own country AND RETARDED IDIOTS ON THE WESTERN PART OF THE INTERNET WHO HAVEN'T EXPERIENCED WHAT REAL FULL-TIME LABOR IS to end up ridiculing these people for "having no lives" and "being creepy".

Oh, yes, women are TRUELY the ones who are experiencing "sexist oppression" in Japan. And, the only way to end this "oppression" is to encourage that they ALSO take part in this nightmare. That's going to solve EVERYTHING!

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Post #787777 - Reply to (#787751) by Transdude1996
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12:48 am, Dec 29 2020
Posts: 285


Thanks, that second link is definitely helpful in establishing this point.

Pedophilia will always exist. It's a mental illness of sorts, and one that people are actively disincentivized from getting help over (because doing so requires outing themselves). So if anything, the existence of loli/shota manga seems more helpful than harmful.

Post #787778 - Reply to (#787761) by Carmella
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12:55 am, Dec 29 2020
Posts: 285


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This WAS an issue, which is why many current games have you playing as someone who's legally ALLOWED to shoot at people who shoot at them

And many *other* current games still allow you to just kill people without having legal authorization to do so.

What the fuck is your point? You want to ban Grand Theft Auto? Red Dead Redemption?

You legit sound like a shill for China with those implications, lol

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2:01 am, Dec 29 2020
Posts: 395


It's not depicting real children. So the only question for me is the following: if pedophiles consume it, do their urges for raping actual, real kids increase or does it decrease it?
Because I do know that childlike, accurate dolls were prohibited fast because it made pedophiles more likely to attack real children.
Then again, apparently loli/shota helps keep japan's assault rate for kids incredible low. But it's japan, and well. Healthy, skeptical doubts here on whether it's just not reported.

So refraining from vote, because honestly, if it helps prevent or at the very least doesn't encourage crime, I'm all for it. But I just don't know if that's the case.

Post #787782 - Reply to (#787779) by dreamer00013
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3:33 am, Dec 29 2020
Posts: 320


If one accepts the basic principle that things are legal, as long as they are not explicitly decided to be illegal, rather than having a system where everything is illegal, unless they are explicitly decided to be legal…

The burden of evidence, lies on showing that a thing is harmful in some way, for it to be deemed illegal.
…and there is no evidence that loli/shota porn is likely to be harmful.
There are a lot of groups, that would love to see it banned, and if they had evidence, they'd be touting it all the time.
As it is, they have nothing but baseless (and often ridiculous) claims and speculations.

Until it can be shown to be harmful, there is no justifiable reason to ban it.
Despise it and those who consume it? Find it disgusting? Certainly!
…but not to make it illegal.
If we made things illegal, just because we found them disgusting…

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