banner_jpg
Username/Email: Password:
Forums

New Poll - Author Morality

Pages (2) [ 1 2 ] Next
You must be registered to post!
From User
Message Body
user avatar


10:05 pm, Dec 19 2021
Posts: 10121


This week's poll, suggested by F_J, is very similar to one we did a couple of months ago. Instead of scandals or controversies though, the focus is on morality or the agenda the author is trying to push.

You can submit poll ideas here
http://www.mangaupdates.com/showtopic.php?tid=3903

Previous Poll Results:
Question: Would you become part of a collective consciousness / hive mind?
Choices:
Yes - votes: 586 (19%)
No - votes: 2506 (81%)
There were 3092 total votes.
The poll ended: December 19th 2021

Could one argue that the mass media is already creating a lower form of collective consciousness?

________________
A just ruler amongst tyrants
Member

10:40 pm, Dec 19 2021
Posts: 9


Honestly for me, it's pretty complicated.
The work has to be pretty enjoyable for me not to think about the author's views. And even so, what kind of morals are we talking about here. There's a difference between something like believing drugs are okay and thinking that women should stay in the kitchen.
And let's say that the author does believe that women should stay in the kitchen but I enjoy their work(s) very much, it's just not that easy for me to enjoy their work to fullest having to know that fact.

user avatar
Seinen is RIGHT
 Member

10:50 pm, Dec 19 2021
Posts: 2211


The "morality or the agenda the author is trying to push" would be the story itself. So yes, the plot of the work I have in front of me is kind of important.

________________
I also read EU/US comics and am a librarian.
Manga-Masters, My ANN-Lists + Imdb
User Posted Image
Post #794200
user avatar
Member

11:05 pm, Dec 19 2021
Posts: 67


To all the "it's just fiction" people, take note of what's being asked here. Despite what it sounds, this is a significantly different question from whether an author is/did X thing and the question of how Y topic in a work should be portrayed. This is literally propaganda. In any situation, me KNOWING that a text, fiction or otherwise, is propaganda will affect how I interpret and enjoy the particular work. Sometimes it is a mesage I support or can ignore, and sometimes it's ultra nationalistic "Japan has done nothing wrong and also Nanking never happened." That is a bit of an extreme example, and I could probably point to that Shounen Jump manga that was like "Japan was perfect until dirty foreigners arrived. Now we live in Mad Max: Ninja edition" instead, but I'll take any chance to plug the Mothers Basement video on the cult that makes anime

Last edited by Ceiye at 6:33 am, Dec 20

user avatar
Member

5:23 am, Dec 20 2021
Posts: 75


Thanks to Ceiye for the explanation. I often come across similar examples when "this value" represents them. Like, really. It conveys to me but more often I can ignore. Sometimes I can enjoy series A but not with series B even though it has the same theme. Different representations make me see from different angles.

________________
I'm a bundle of inconsistencies.
Post #794204
user avatar
mmm...
 Member

7:17 am, Dec 20 2021
Posts: 275


Since it doesn't really affect their work, most of the time I don't really care about it mmm...
Like how Rurouni Kenshin is still a good manga no matter how degenerate Watsuki Nobuhiro actually is mmm...

________________
I will change this world mmm...
So the world can change me mmm...
Post #794206
Member

7:52 am, Dec 20 2021
Posts: 9


Not for me. I actually rarely look at the author's name unless I really enjoy something and want to read more of their work, and even then, I don't go searching for gossip. Same with art, acting, and any other media I consume.

If a work is pushing an agenda that I don't agree with:
- If the agenda is the whole point of the work to the point where it becomes unenjoyable, then it's a simple matter of not consuming what I don't enjoy.
- If I only see glimpses of it or if other aspects of the work are interesting, then such things are easy for me to ignore (or skim through if they're too much) because I consume media for entertainment, and if it's entertaining then it's served its purpose.

There are many things I don't agree with in media. If I were to look for a custom designed echo chamber for myself my selection would be very limited.

A not so heavy example: I don't agree that "cute" should be synonymous with stupid, clumsy, airhead...etc. and portrayed with childish mannerisms. These characters come off as developmentally challenged. It's actually something I feel strongly about, but if I skipped every manga or anime that has such a character, I'd be missing out on some works I really enjoyed (like Steins;Gate) because that stereotype is quite prominent in manga/anime. I may not like that character, but does it really matter if I like the rest?

Another more specific example: I absolutely hated how women (especially the romance interests) were written in Bakuman. Every part of those romances was against what I believe about gender roles and portrayal of women, yet I really really enjoyed the shounen aspects of it and rated it highly.

Post #794214 - Reply to (#794204) by VawX
user avatar
Seinen is RIGHT
 Member

5:26 pm, Dec 20 2021
Posts: 2211


Not the question. There are no child grooming elements in Kenshin so he ain´t pushing that on you. We would have known since the 90s who Nobuhiro actually is otherwise.
The manga instead glorifies the Shinsengumi and its values (a politically motivated police task force), has a negative view of the weapons market or 19th-century prostituation and establishes that the killing of other people is dishonorable. These are some of the morals of the work that strongly inform the plot itself, moments of catharsis for the characters, etc. All harmless stuff or the most mainstream manga anthology on the market wouldn´t have published it as an all-ages manga. It's also why the potentially political Death Note is so tame and simply focuses on the mind game. It would have needed to run in their Seinen spin-off otherwise and there is less money in that. Interesting that Disney now owns the Punisher but his comics profile is currently being strongly reduced due to, well look it up.

Another example of an obvious moral. Spriggan, Spec Ops: The Line or Metal Gear preach with a megaphone that American military intervention is bad bad BAD. The limited US manga release for Spriggan even had some of its Anti-American content removed as it would have upset the apple cart back then. You will not like how the plot to any of these unfolds if you hold the conviction that the US military is a well-meaning world police and the 1998 Spriggan anime film got criticized for how it portrayed American soldiers when it came out in the US. Don´t expect that criticism repeated when the 2022 anime drops. The wind shifted even in the US.
You can´t have a high view of 20th-century communism and enjoy Animal Farm 1954 as that animated film was funded by the CIA. It is literally propaganda but fairly close to the book too. You need to see value in BLM to get anything out of Candyman 2021. Etc.
Behold, actual Japanese politics in a manga: Gekiga Hyouryuu. Run for you life kids! KAWAGUCHI Kaiji also does that and here is Imperial Japan did nothing wrong - The Animation:
https://myanimelist.net/anime/6229/Konpeki_no_Kantai
The quite funny 1/10 review ain´t wrong. I have no idea which nation would date to license this on a lark.

@Ceiye El Cantare will reign for 20000 years and a day! Glory be to God Eagle!
https://happy-science.org/el-cantare/

Edit: A top to bottom Punisher reboot just got announced. How timely. He was benched for 1,5 years. Even the near 5 decades old logo got a redesign. Looks great but this is what happens if real-world politics and IP accidentally collide: https://bleedingcool.com/comics/jason-aaron-reinvents-mar vel-punisher-for-2022/

Marvel EIC C.B. Cebulski says "The Punisher is not a hero or a role model, a fact that's reinforced in the pages of our books. For readers who unpack Frank's character, there's a deep and compelling story about how his demons drive him to do terrible things that heroes would never do. And when you think about his story in that context, it directly contradicts how the Punisher has been appropriated."

Now that is a wild (Disney!) press release and note how the moral of the story is its selling point? No one is ignoring authorial intent. Certainly not the publisher. Not that these are always understood. See Fight Club, Starship Troopers (funny how the book and film are on somewhat opposite ends), etc.

Last edited by residentgrigo at 6:08 pm, Dec 20

________________
I also read EU/US comics and am a librarian.
Manga-Masters, My ANN-Lists + Imdb
User Posted Image
user avatar
Member

7:14 pm, Dec 20 2021
Posts: 93


Quote
Could one argue that the mass media is already creating a lower form of collective consciousness?

lambchopsil asking the right questions.

Post #794216
user avatar
Member

7:24 pm, Dec 20 2021
Posts: 635


I put yes.

I'm not going to scour the internet for information about every author whose work I read, and an author being a POS doesn't necessarily ruin a work for me (though I'm not going to want to support them), but...

It's kind of hard not to feel the author's opinion seeping into their work at times.

Anything anyone creates is going to be shaped through the lens of their own perspective, and if the author has especially unpalatable morals or opinions, it can easily lead to the work being less enjoyable - or more enjoyable, just from the novelty of seeing how a messed up person thinks. It can have an impact either way.

________________
"It is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science."
Post #794217
user avatar
Member

8:09 pm, Dec 20 2021
Posts: 565


I would say… usually no. Recently I read a manga that presented the idea that basic morals like ‘murder is bad’ are subjective and formed by the opinions of the majority of society, and I’ll admit that I decreased its rating by 0.5 because it included that idea, but not because I was offended, just because it was presented as something profound instead of something that every tween has thought of and most have already grown out of believing. But I read a lot of classical literature so I’m used to placing writing in its cultural and/or historical context and ignoring the casual racism and sexism.

Re: propaganda, I don’t agree that an author pushing a certain view makes a work propaganda (though it could be). Naturally any author would present their own worldview as correct and try to portray that in their work, but you can’t really get around that unless there’s no worldview presented at all. For me the point when it would become propaganda is if the mangaka included misinformation or skewed facts in a deliberate attempt to manipulate people.

Last edited by hkanz at 8:41 pm, Dec 20

Member

8:29 pm, Dec 20 2021
Posts: 112


I remember getting free tickets to an anime in theaters that was basically a religious recruiting platform;
likely, as there were persons taking questions before and presumably afterwards but I left halfway through.
https://myanimelist.net/anime/13439/Shinpi_no_Hou/
not sure if hyper Christian or actual cult

morality messages delivered with a sledgehammer don't work for me; lacking nuance and persuasion
I'd much prefer to find the message, as it whispers to my own core morality.

user avatar
Seinen is RIGHT
 Member

8:58 pm, Dec 20 2021
Posts: 2211


All of this reminds me of this 2021 anime news gem.
Resident Evil's Netflix show asked reviewers not to mention politics:
https://www.pcgamer.com/resident-evils-netflix-show-asked -reviewers-not-to-mention-politics/

Imagine 24 meets zombies and you are set. Capcom really went out there and said to professional critics that they need to stay away from any ideological analysis, they couldn´t even mention any political or moral level, if they wanted to get access to the screeners. Remind me of all these "non-politcal" Tom Clancy games by UbiSoft. If Clancy was alive to see this... He had a bad case of Japanophobia btw. The economic bubble collapsed 2 years before this (hilariously) racist mess released in 1994: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt_of_Honor
He was barking at a corpse. A rogue Japan Airlines pilot pulls a 9/11 on the US with a greater success than even Al-Qaeda and only days after Japan nearly tanks the US economy beyond the breaking point. Wild wild stuff.


________________
I also read EU/US comics and am a librarian.
Manga-Masters, My ANN-Lists + Imdb
User Posted Image
Post #794229 - Reply to (#794218) by Sugarshark
user avatar
Member

4:57 am, Dec 21 2021
Posts: 67


YOOO THIS IS IT! This is one of the anime that a cult made! Dude you should have stayed, you would have gotten to see Happy Science's bullshit in person. I'm just going to casually throw this here again...

Or a more digestable 10 minute video, but Ryuho Okawa doesn't deserve actual documentation

Post #794236 - Reply to (#794216) by mattai
user avatar
Member

9:50 pm, Dec 21 2021
Posts: 38


I put no ironically for the same reasons. If a bad morality/opinion of the author comes through the work, then I'll dislike their work. If they're able to separate it from their work, or if it's is so unrelated it doesn't show then I'll enjoy it.

Pages (2) [ 1 2 ] Next
You must be registered to post!