Since josei is quite radically different to shoujo and targets an older audience than "shoujo" would suggest, I wouldn't think it could really be lumped under the umbrella of the "shoujo demographic" at all. "Manga aimed at women" might be clearer and also includes shounen-ai and yaoi, which, being genres, would not be included in any demographic category. (On a side-note, I expected that yaoi manga would not require a smut tag because yaoi itself indicates sexual content will be present so it would be tautological to add smut also.)

Anyway, I would tend to agree that Cohabitation is a rather ambiguous tag, and this thread doesn't go a very long way towards clearing up any of the confusion arising over tag definitions since many users may not visit the forum or have noticed this thread. Taking a category at face value is about all most users can do, in which case cohabitation doesn't necessarily imply a romantic/sexual relationship. If that's what it's supposed to mean, I'd suggest changing the category name to Romantic Cohabitation or Cohabiting Couple or something. Then there will probably be those who do not see the difference between that and Live-in Lover, and perhaps that would have to be clarified also. The nuance is rather fine and easily missed, especially bearing in mind that some people who use this site are not native speakers of English.


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mogiks, please. Are you trying to save face, or something?

Yeah, I know the difference between shoujo, josei, and yaoi, but as I've been saying all along, everything is subjective.

I'm not Japaneses, so naturally, I don't speak or fully understand Japaneses. When I say "shoujo" on an English speaking website, I know it means 'young girls', but I rely on the English reader to understand that when I say "the collective shoujo demographic", I mean all demographics concerning females; just like if I said "the collective shounen demographic", I'd expect people to understand that I'm talking about manga that targets the whole male demographic.

Call me ignorant if you like, but that's the way I think as an English speaking person who loosely understands the complete meaning of Japanese words.

And I... hate to break it to you, but I actually copy and pasted that definition of smut from a previous post I made on another site... where everyone understood what I meant. So I'm very sorry, but yes, that's what I meant. (Granted, I explained myself better there.)

Forgive me for not saying "the collective demographic that targets females", as I find that to be quite a mouthful... Or rather an eyeful, since I'm typing this.


Last edited by Badkarma at 1:05 am, Jan 4 2014

Cohabitation - non-family members living together under the same roof.
That's just judging by the series I've read the tag is used for.
It often turns romantic, but it doesn't usually start that way.

As for this thread not being helpful to those who don't visit the forums...
Well, they should definitely start doing so. ;p

And please, stop the fighting.

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Uh, I was just replying because I personally found what you were saying to be confusing.



I didn't, nor would I like to. I'm not trying to attack you, I was just adding my thoughts.

Back on topic, perhaps there should be a link to this thread on the categories page (this one) so that at least it's a bit more visible? I guess the ideal solution would be having a definition on each category page, but I guess that would take a load of work. Hopefully adding a link to this thread would be quite simple.

Still, with the extended debate about certain categories it might be hard for someone who's visiting the thread to pin down exactly what the final agreed definition of a category ended up being, so maybe a masterpost of the definitions that have been asked about would help clear things up (e.g. edited into the first post)? That might also make it less likely that people will ask about a category that someone else already asked about. (Of course the search in this topic bar is there, but it's inevitable someone's not going to notice it.) I guess that would be more work for you, though

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It was just my personal impression (not official) of how they should be used based on the words and the series that I saw tagged with them (although that was many months ago). It's also the situation where I can see Cohabitation and Live-in Lover being different enough to justify having separate tags.

Those are valid points; there definitely does seem to be some confusion. Right now, with no category definitions, the best recourse is to make category names as clear as possible.

Building on mogiks's name-change suggestion, I am thinking of renaming the categories as follows: (Anyone, just let me know if you have any suggestions/improvements.)

Cohabitation could be renamed to Intentional Romantic Cohabitation
Defined as "unmarried individuals involved in a romantic relationship intentionally living together for romantic purposes." If the individuals sleep in the same bed and engage in sexual activity with each other, that's a good indicator that they're living together on purpose toward romantic goals.
Live-in Lover could be renamed to Love Interests Coincidentally Live Together
Defined as "individuals who are either love interests or who are in a romantic relationship, living together by coincidence rather than for romantic purposes." In this case, the individuals would most likely sleep in separate rooms (or at least separate beds) and most likely not engage in sexual activity with each other, indicating that their living situation wasn't arranged for romantic goals (even though they are romantically interested in each other).

Last edited by lynira at 9:44 pm, Jan 10 2014

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Going off "Anyone, just let me know if you have any suggestions/improvements" this isn't one of those I'm putting my foot down, and this is final sort of things.

I actually don't like the idea of making the tags longer. It just makes something that's suppose to be simple clunky.

I've been thinking, and ... wouldn't it be better to get rid of either Cohabitation or Live-in lover?
They both mean the same thing. (whichever way you look it, by a dictionary, or other creditable sources. Which is a romantically involved couple living together out of wedlock.
If you think of love interest living together ... well you could say that it's a one-sided romantic pair.)

Is there really a point in separating lovers that live together by choice or not? (If anything wouldn't it be better to have the one tag, with a 2nd tag like uncontrollable living arrangements.)

Which if one was to get removed I would say Cohabitation. (Because it does have more than one meaning than lovers living together. Like two different species living together. ex. A tree filled with different species of birds. The other meaning is political which there are probably already clearer tags for this definition.)


That's my two cents.

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Cohabitation isn't specifically stated within a romantic context like Live-in Lover is, though.

I do agree that those renamed versions are a tad long and unnecessary.

And the same things apply here too. "Cohabitation will be renamed to Intentional Romantic Cohabitation" you guys are simplifying it to a romantic context only when I see series that are tagged with no romantic inclination at all.

Live-in Lover should stay as is, I see that as something completely different and self-explanatory.

Edit: Actually, Intentional Romantic Cohabitation does sound like the best way to fix that assuming anything that had fallen under the Cohabitation tag (those with no romantic context) use another tag like Roommates/Housemates.


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If you look at my earlier posts you would see how I post a definition from the dictionary of the word Cohabitation. (Look it up yourself if you want), but the two words do mean the same.
(post starts on page 3 somewhere)


Seeing as how you think it doesn't have anything to do with romantic couples living together. ( As I said before why not use Roommates, or Housemates?).

This again says to me that the tag with many meanings (both personal thoughts, and exact definitions) should be removed.

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You might as well have quoted your post instead of sending me on a little hunt.

And that's nice, by that example if we follow each term per dictionary then you will find that most categories have been incorrectly tagged.

I never said it had nothing to do with "romantic couples living together" I said it could also have to do with non-romantic couples living together, which your definition kindly implies as well. If you look at my earlier post (directly above yours) you would see that I posted that! :B


I hope you know that means we would be losing half those tags.

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Ahh sorry laziness kicked in. (Plus you kind of jumped into a conversation mid way ... not saying you can't, but normally one would read all the previous posts regrading said discussion).


huh?
sorry could you reword this?


I believe that's why we would vote down tags, for those who misused the tags.

Oh if Cohabitation was just for "two different species living together" and only for that, and leaving live-in lover for all romantic couples living in together (intentional or unintentional arrangements). That would be great. ( but ... getting that point across to everyone doesn't seem likely). So just getting rid of Cohabitation seems like the better option.



ummm May I suggest we move this over to the Categories(Tags) Bug Thread since this doesn't really seem to be a clarification anymore, but rather a fix to the two tags.

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If you thought I meant the whole thread moved over to the Categories(Tags) Bug Thread, I just meant the discussion of cohabitation.
I did start feeling as if I was hijacking this thread, by over thinking. I'm sorry for that. (Which is why I suggested moving this talk about that tag to the other thread, but it's that's not a good idea, or allowed. Okay).


I think I will take your advice and stop over thinking this.

Thanks everyone for clarifying as best as you could for the tag Cohabitation to me. Sorry I was being ... stubborn (for lack of a better word). So no more talk about this tag from me. Thanks again, and sorry again for it spiraling like this.




Wait a minute ... I was just writing back to NightSwan ...
(Didn't mean to double post).

Last edited by kitty1826x at 1:02 am, Jan 11 2014

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I have a question regarding Edutainment category.
Does it only include tutorial based manga like Manga de Wakaru Bunshi Seibutsugaku, or does any manga that speak about a certain field in depth could be categorized as one? Since Maoyuu Maou Yuusha and Pet Diary is tagged as edutainment, does that means that Hyakushou Kizoku and Gin no Saji that talk about agricultural and Honey & Honey that talks about lesbian relationship in japan could be counted as edutaiment?

I apologize if this isn't the right thread for it but for the virus category what kind of virus are we talking about specifically? A computer virus or a sickness virus?

What does the tag A Change in Art Style mean?

I think it means that there is a sudden change in the way the mangaka draws the characters/art. For example, after an 8-year hiatus for Yami no Matsuei which was resumed in 2011, right in the middle of volume 12 you can obviously tell that the art is completely different in chapter 68 compared to chapter 75 where it has become more smooth and mature-looking (in term of the eyes and face shape).