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Post #485371
user avatar

10:25 am, Jul 28 2011
Posts: 151

Things like this ending happen. People and their feelings are infinitely variable. It seems to me valid to tell a story about one relationship that develops this way. With these two not being blood-related, there is no incest. I imagine people, especially fathers, are generally rational in the feelings they choose to allow themselves to have about daughters or daughter stand-ins. I have no children, but I can't imagine ever contemplating incest with a daughter without thoroughly rejecting the idea immediately. But then, this is not that case.

The great thing about Japanese manga and anime is that they are willing to contemplate the vagaries of the human heart that in the USA are bottled up and thrown away down the toilet, labeled "sin". It seems very clear to me that the mangaka of this story began bending the story in this direction some time ago (when the nice single mom who was perfect for Daichi unaccountably rejected him), if only in order to make the manga more sensational and able to sell longer. Then the new Tokyo law came into effect in July, apparently designed to pressure publishers and writers to "clean" up their act, by making more sexually adventurous and ecchi stories classifiable as "adult only" and so not able to be sold to minors, thereby killing much of the profit from those.

So this makgaka, who could have developed this new final arc of the story up through a bunch of the people in the manga getting furious at Dachichi, and proceeding right up to a marriage ceremony, at least, was sandbagged.

The mangaka and her editors then proceeded to chicken out and dropped this final story arc like a hot potato! We are going to see this happen again. Money talks.

If by chance Japan is now going to head in the direction of the puritanical USA, then that is going to be sad.

Post #485379
user avatar

10:40 am, Jul 28 2011
Posts: 267

I don't think the ending was bad at all, but I have to agree that it felt a bit disappointing and bit out of place. It feels like all the other chapters were leading to the idea that daikichi may end up with kouki's mom, and that Rin may end up patching things up with kouki. Then, all of the sudden she starts feeling annoyed at the idea that some other woman may take care of him. Even though I can see how she could end up developing those feeling, the bigger part of the manga (the part before the gap) gave other expectations for the manga

Post #487931

8:22 am, Aug 8 2011
Posts: 15

with this manga what am i supposed to think.
i just went into this manga without doing the usual background check that i usually do before i read, because you know. from the title and the summery it sounded like one of those "can't go wrong stories"
how could it have gone so terribly wrong!

Post #488612 - Reply to (#484210) by greydrak

4:29 pm, Aug 10 2011
Posts: 2

Quote from greydrak
There is no incest in this series.
People assumed too much, and hate without understanding. roll eyes

The NOT BLOOD RELATED!!! thing was literally a last second reveal and was about as retarded and hamfisted as an M. Night "WHAT A TWEEEST!" Shyamalan plot turn. He raised her from a preschooler as his daughter for 12 years. He was in every sense her father, indeed, the only family she had really until near the end. It is creepy and disgusting any way you look at it. When I heard the ending was bad, with morbid curiosity I read through the rest of the manga past where the anime is, and just finished it. It was one of the best series I've read up until the final plot arc, where it took a magnificent shit in its own bed and goes down as one of the biggest, most catastrophic fuckups of a good series I've ever seen. Worse than a Gainax Ending.

Yotsuba isn't Koiwai's blood-related daughter. Would it feel right to have her grow up and form a relationship with him? No, it'd be weird as hell. If you don't see what is wrong with a parent having an intimate relationship with their child you are utterly reprehensible

Post #489275
user avatar

2:22 pm, Aug 13 2011
Posts: 12

I agree. Blood related/not blood related, she was his daughter. You DO say no to that. Weird home relationships can sometimes lead to weird feelings. Maybe he should have straight up adopted her as a child regardless of her feelings, but the last minute reveal was too coincidental.

Anyone who has read Marmalade Boy saw some of this, but at least it was tackled head on from the beginning. And that the misunderstanding was just that, a misunderstanding. But the major difference, even when looking at pre-reveal MB, was that Miki and Yuu never really saw themselves as related. Where as she was his DAUGHTER.

She wet the bed. He carried her when she was tired. Held her when she cried. Washed her hair when she was too young to do it herself. He helped her brush her teeth. Taught her how to jump rope. They slept together when she was little because of her fear of abandonment. Her fear that he might die.

The ending colored all of that in a different light. Blood is a MEDICAL thing. Levels of separation are all about making sure you don't have seriously genetically screwed up children. Incest is and SHOULD be about more than that. Blurring the line between parents and lovers is vile. And he admits in the last few pages that he's still proud of her as a daughter. He still sees her as a daughter. And yet he introduces the concept of marriage.

My hope is that he's still holding out for another man to enter her life and turn her head away. That they'll never have children. Never, please SOMETHING, never have sex. I REALIZE that relationships and emotions are not always contained in nice little boxes, but sometimes no matter what those feelings are you have to repress them. Like say feeling the urge to have sex with someone who doesn't consent. Repress the heck out of it. The feeling of murdering someone who has done you wrong in someway. Repress the heck out of it. Taking drugs because of immediate desire and no concern for the long term.

Daikichi still sees her as a daughter. A sexual relationship is not good for EITHER of them psychologically. Girls, would you screw your fathers? Someone said that she didn't see him as a father, but she refers to him as a parent at several times throughout the series. She says that to her Daikichi is the same as her friends' mothers. And having a child with a person in that position isn't wrong for puritanical reasons, it's wrong for psychological reasons.

Post #491056
user avatar

12:29 am, Aug 22 2011
Posts: 1

woohooohoo, there's so much raging about the ending, i guess i should chip in too.

it is true that they do have a father-daughter relationship, and yes it's disturbing how it can be turning out the way the story is wrapping up

however, i think throughout the series, we get little subtle hints that despite this father-daughter relationship on the surface, Rin never regarded Daikichi as her father. She refuses to change her surname to Kawachi, she doesn't try to hide that she is raised by a man who is not her father, she even made it clear to Daikichi that he's Daikichi - whom I think the best description would be the figure of a big brother, or better still a life long friend who has cared for her and whom she could always rely on. It doesn't even matter that Daikichi has changed her diapers, their loving relationship/friendship will not change. When you also consider Rin's quiet yet sweet and passionate personality, it is only expected that those feelings will continue to strengthen their bond that she has become so attached to and could not live without.

More importantly, the unusual circumstance of both Rin and Daikichi is what makes me openly accept the ending. Rin has never quite grown up in a normal family, nor has she received the much needed parental love. All she is left with is are scattered memories of an old geezer (who turns out to be not even her real father. Naturally, she can't help but feel dejected, lonely and abandoned. Daikichi has been single for most of his life, so even after having adopted Rin for good, Rin could not help but to see him as a big brother rather than a father (because in that case there would've been a mother figure too). Later on when Rin realizes how much Daikichi has 'given up' for her sake, she can't help but further feel even stronger feelings towards this man, who is in fact no one but a complete stranger. Perhaps the loneliness they've both felt has drawn them close together, and made Rin realize what she is truly after, which is to be with the one she has always 'loved' - in the broadest possible sense.

finally, the plot isn't a typical everyday real life experience that you'd hear or come across. and because it's so rare, pure (in its own ways) and forbidden that i find this story beautiful.

10/10 hands down xD

ps - yes i'm against incest of all kinds but given their unique circumstances, the way this story is carefully (yet boldly) crafted, and how i never fully perceive their father-daughter relationship, i'm much more than ok with it. Besides, at the end, they have only confessed (yet still with some reservation from Daikichi) - who knows what will still happen next.

Last edited by pcxxy at 12:56 am, Aug 22

Post #493450

1:14 pm, Sep 1 2011
Posts: 2

Yeah you are exactly the sort of creepy fucker I would expect to be totally okay with this sort of ending.

The "subtle hints" you note are not an automatic romance button. To someone who has no knowledge of the ending storyline, they just seem like normal adopted kid things. Sometimes adopted kids don't feel right changing their family name to someone that isn't their original parent.

The ending changes all of that. It literally goes back and fucks up your perception of the entire rest of the manga and character interactions, and for that, it is truly a tragedy.

Post #494108

12:42 pm, Sep 4 2011
Posts: 1

I'm not going to condemn or condone the ending. It was the author's choice to end it the way she did. I just feel the way she ended this felt forced and a bit rushed.

I like the way she set up Daikichi to handle the situation, even at the end he was not comfortable with the whole situation but throughout the whole manga he was never able to deny what Rin wanted either. I think he went with it to keep Rin from getting upset. All he is able to do is postpone it, "Wait two years", "Go to college".

I'll interpret it as Daikichi's way to give Rin chances to change her mind.

Post #495945
user avatar

5:13 pm, Sep 13 2011
Posts: 5

THE ENDING WAS SIMPLY RUSHED, UNCALLED FOR, AND NOT REALISTIC! The author wanted to end the story with a boom (to stir up talk and discussion for the book probably). NO WAY IN HELL, would a father think of their child, whom they clothed, bathed, housed as a SIGNIFICANT OTHER! NO WAY IN HELL! There are fathers who rape their daughters, but this behaviour is exposed from the beginning, similar with mothers (but there are more factors that contribute to his/her behaviour ex. mental illness)! NO MOTHER would see their son as a husband NO MOTHER! Blood has NOTHING to do with it, if you never knew you had a brother/sister, that you have now, and meet them randomly and fall in love (WHICH DOES HAPPEN!) it is prefectly reasonable, ONE you never knew he was your brother TWO you were never raised together and never felt feeling of brotherly love or the feelings of taboo for him.
EVEN in incest manga they have some realistic elements in it. The fact that one or two of the siblings NEVER considered them as a bro/sis and always felt attraction to them or they just randomly met and fell in love -____- There was no reason for Rin to love Dai, and NO WAY IN HELL for Dai to love her in a romantic way.For anyone who accepts their love and thinks it is natural because they have no blood bond is horrendous! I would not marry my parents even if we were not blood related, and I'm sure you feel the same as well. The sanction of family, whether its hetreo, homo, single mom/dad, only grandparents etc is there for a reason, because we biologically have attachment to our family, nothing more or less.

This ending seemed rushed and careless, expected more from this author....

Post #496346

7:37 pm, Sep 15 2011
Posts: 4

I posted a comment on the manga page as well, but I think it's probably better said here ... the ending was HORRIBLE, not because it was incestuous (though I will address that nonsense in a minute) It was horrible because it took something beautiful and well crafted and within three volumes made it arbitrary and meaningless.

Firstly I REJECT any and all claims that this is somehow okay because "Rin didn't accept Daikichi as her father" A six year old child has no concept of reserving herself so that she may in the far off future chose to view the man who raised her as a love interest. So stop it ... the whole not taking his name yada yada, can be owed to being a child who's not sure where she stands in a world where she's been rejected and abandoned over and over. Can she trust this guy, will this time be different or the same as all the rest? THESE are thoughts befitting to the situation. Now on to commentary .. *strap in it's about to get real ranty up in this piece folks*

I was HEAD OVER HEELS in love with this manga until about Vol.7 ... I'm actually such a fan of the first half that I can't bring myself NOT to recommend it even now. It was beautifully written, complex, bitter sweet at times, and wholly engaging. I can't recall the last time I read a manga that managed to pull at my emotions AND keep me on the edge of my seat ... but then ... there was the timeskip *headdesk* and everything after that is just a jumbled clusterfuck of shock value and ploys to grab attention. Which this manga in no way needed to do! I'm not even touching on the whole incest thing here because, well the managaka has lamely clarified that through some mystical last minute loophole this is not incest in the end right? *rolls eyes*


Point 1: The Daikichi whom I fell in love with for being the awesomeness that he is lol, is clearly (and has been since volume TWO) in love with Nitani-san (Kouki's mom). Who I might add quite clearly returns his feelings. But of course post timeskip and for reasons which are NEVER explained, mangaka marries her off to some random dude in order to accommodate the ridiculous ending. I could've swallowed the theory that they "sacrificed themselves" for Kouki and Rin ... but wait due to Rin's selfish prissiness they were never an item so errr ... am I missing something here? Nitani-san can't marry Daikichi but she CAN marry some random dude? WTF?

Point 2: In every sense aside from blood, Rin is Daikichi's daughter ... Anyone reading this can understand that within the first few chapters. The managaka made it so clear that he treasures and protects Rin as a parent with every ounce of his being ... He gave up his damn career and changed his life to take care of her to the best of his ability. He bathed, fed, and clothed her, nursed her through sickness, freaked out at the mere thought of letting her walk to school by herself all the way through to Highschool because he worried about her so much ... And you're telling me this same hardworking, practical and protective father, turns around twelve years later and is suddenly able to view the seventeen year old CHILD he's raised in a sexual sense, and MARRY HER? Are you F'N kidding me? Just about the only appropriate and honest thing the managaka allowed him to say in her disastrous excuse for a finale was the part when he said: "This is the most HURTFUL thing you could ever do to me." (In reference to Rin pursuing him in a romantic sense) Any responsible parent, father or mother, would indeed be HEARTBROKEN to find out that their child has so gravely misunderstood the sanctity of their bond.

Point 3: Rin & Kouki ... this was so poorly done it was incredible, like watching a train wreck I swear. The managaka used the FLIMSIEST logic in the world to excuse how in the span of like a week Rin went from loving Kouki who she's had a crush on since they were SEVEN, to suddenly being steadfastly in love with Daikichi. Apparently for Kouki, despite being blatantly and almost RIDICULOUSLY devoted to Rin and telling her every five seconds that he likes her, having a nasty conniving ex-girlfriend is reason enough to just decide to never give him a chance.

You know there's just so much that doesn't add up, I'd be here all day listing them all ... And THAT'S my biggest problem with the ending. Not so much the quasi incestuousness, but the fact that I invested myself into nine VOLUMES, only to find that SIX of them (the BEST 6 btw) had absolutely nothing to do with where the story ended up. Sad, sad, SAD!

Last edited by ELX at 12:29 am, Sep 16

Post #496780

1:10 pm, Sep 18 2011
Posts: 26

Fist of all i want to say what i am not a saint or some moral fag. I really like to read hentai incest stories and ecchi stuff like KissxSis, Onii-chan no Koto Nanka Zenzen Suki Janaindakara ne!!, Aki no Sora etc. But all this stories are fictional from beginning. No one in sane mind gonna try and project this IRL.

But this manga is one of most realistic "slice of life" i'd ever read. And because of that, that was one of the sickest ending ever... It's like if in Nabokov's "Lolita" guy lived happily together with girl for rest of his life. It like giving a green life to ppl. to adopt children, raising them and marring them.
But it's not only about marring you own daughter. It's about a guy who, not only being a failure at life(if we put away our pink glasses), failed to teach his own daughter basic rules of human society, failed to convince her to change her miserable way of living(if she is do smart as manga implies, she can easily go into good University). It's a story about smart and bright girl who give away her future for a guy who's fail at life. Moreover this guy easily accepted this situation, like it's totally OK.
And one more disturbing thing. About Rin's mother. If in the begging she was like "silly young girl knocked over buy old perverted geezer". Her behavior was if not totally right, but easy to understand. But in reality... She was knocked bu some random guy, impose her child onto totally unrelated man, and simply ran away. Not only this created a big misunderstanding between Daikichi's relatives and labeled Daikichis grandpa as a pervert, this allow a lot of pl think that they can get always get away from such situations.
In general, i think this manga can give a growing generation a worst live advices ever.

Post #499238
user avatar

10:56 pm, Oct 3 2011
Posts: 2037

I can sort of agree with people thinking the ending was uncalled for (I also didn't really liked it), but I can't understand why it should be unrealistic, since at that point of the story it was the only thing that could have happened. It would have been different if Daikichi would have married Kouki's mom and they had started a family, but that didn't happen.
It was pretty logical for Rin to fall in love with Daikichi since she already had a dad (granpa) and regarded Kouki as a brother. In her eyes Daikichi was the only "not family" person who loved her and put her before his own life. And Daikichi did all he could have done to avoid that but in the end he had to accepted her because he knew she would have been clearly unable to love anyone for all her life due to her circumstances.
IMHO the only person who didn't acted rationally in the series is Kouki's mom and the ending doesn't regard her at all.

PS: this is probably the only manga I've got a problem to rate it, since in my eyes it's like having read two different manga.

What I like in Trivial Pursuit style. Pick your category:User Posted Image
Post #500197

6:20 pm, Oct 9 2011
Posts: 1


Last edited by beesamargh at 5:31 pm, Jun 17

Post #501252

3:53 am, Oct 15 2011
Posts: 1

Apparently if you thought the ending was decent, you're a creepy fuck now. People should stop taking their own opinions so damn seriously. smile

There was no real "moral" problem with the ending. The author just rushed it a lot and left a lot of loose ends.

Post #501260
user avatar
Mome Basher

5:08 am, Oct 15 2011
Posts: 3380

Loose ends that COULD be tied up in the bonus tank....>_>

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Everyday I'm tumblin'
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