On a side note, one thing I wouldn't mind is if the fansubbers left the original commercials in their anime releases. I've seen a bunch of japanese commercials over a decade ago while watching anime and I found them far more compelling in an odd way than normal ones. To this day I still feel the urge to buy this one voice actor's album that I couldn't quite get the name of.

For manga, I do agree with the notion that the effects of scanlations aren't that serious yet. The value of the scanlations pales in comparison to having the physical book, especially if the pages are less than perfectly scanned and cleaned. The Mai Hime manga scanlation looks like trash but the tokyopop release is breathtaking in comparison.

Glad to see someone speaking their minds about the crap to be found in licensed translations. Too many people are willing to make excuses for the garbage editing and censorship to be found in licensed series.

I haven't abandoned licensed manga though since it seems the censorship is far less common in comparison. It still irks me to see some of the "editing." When I saw Karin changed to "Chibi Vampire" I couldn't stop shaking my head in disgust. That and ADV's translation of Azumanga is the worst translation I've seen in manga to date.

For anime, I personally have no pity for the licensed translations. They've been screwing their customers for years with high prices, censorship and poor quality since the VHS days. The day I saw Card Captor Sakura butchered into Card Captors is the day I gave up on licensed translations forever. Never forgive and never forget.

On this subject. There have been multiple law suits against libraries from license holders. Thus far they have won due to the various laws regarding first sale in the US.

"The "first sale" doctrine says that a person who buys a legally produced copyrighted work may "sell or otherwise dispose" of the work as he sees fit, subject to some important conditions and exceptions. Section 109(a). In other words, if you legally buy a book or CD, "first sale" gives you the right to loan that book or CD to your friend. Libraries heavily depend on the first sale doctrine to lend books and other items to patrons."
http://www.aallnet.org/committee/copyright/pages/issue s/firstsale.html

As for Europe, here there is a royalty on all books lent out by libraries. Thus they aren't lent out for free. A bit like the radio model works in the US (I think).

The big difference about scanlations and libraries is that libraries have a copy that they lend out. Thus they don't break copyright law, due to not copying anything, just lending it out. Then there is Scanlations, they modify the original work without rights, they then copy this effort to other people.

Which means we break the law twice (depending on how you define it) while libraries don't break it at all.

The interesting question is how long it is until they sell licenses to goods instead of the goods themselves though. If they sold the right to license the book instead of the book itself it would no longer fall under first sale and could not be lent out.
http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/2001/01/41184

> For anime, I personally have no pity for the licensed translations. They've been screwing their customers for years with high prices, censorship and poor quality since the VHS days. The day I saw Card Captor Sakura butchered into Card Captors is the day I gave up on licensed translations forever. Never forgive and never forget.

Isn't it more Madhouse's fault for letting Card Captor Sakura be butchered into Card Captors for US TV? Miyazaki keeps a tight rein on his stuff because I heard when he let them bring his stuff over the US before and obviously he got mad (and of course they probably tinkered with stuff that even screwed up the stories told). But I guess if every company was like Rumiko Takahashi with her manga, there would be less tampering but probably also less stuff being brought over since it would be even more of headache.

But I guess it's good to not buy from companies you don't like and don't support because the majority obviously need to cut a profit as they can't live off nothing.

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My avatar was Yves Saint Laurent's The Black Evening Dress (with big bow) first shown in 1983, photographed from his 2002 retrospective and final show. [color=#CC0066]Check out some of his collections for free (pre-2008) HERE[/color] courtesy of FirstView.

@TheClumsyPotato
You're totally wrong about where the distributors get their main source of income. It is the DVD's, and they get nothing from the TV advertisements you see. Those advertisements are there to support the individual channel or network only (in exchange for advertising space). I'm not entirely too sure what the parameters are for each license, but I'm certain the distributors get their income from the network itself, by allowing them the right to use their licensed material as long as they pay a fee. But the fee is not significant enough to keep the series from being considered a flop if they don't sell their DVD's. The DVD's are their life and blood, which is why most people in this thread have said "buy what you download". Besides, out of the many thousands of anime series that have been adapted, I doubt more than two-hundred series have aired, and that's being generous.

As for my instance on the main topic. If the fans would only consider all the things that these companies could do if they were getting the profit they need. Faster releases, accurate translations, increased awareness of anime and manga, increased popularity and fanbase, more series being brought in and adapted, inspiration on American studios to increasingly adopt the anime/manga style, etc.. I believe this is an investment the fans must make, because it is an investment the fans cannot never lose.

Oops, make that "an investment the fans cannot ever lose".

I did say that I wasn't sure about it. I just based my random shot in the dark based on American series, which do get all of their income from advertisement. And I'll admit that my argument mostly pertained to major series. I might even be wrong about that, since I don't really watch anime much (read: ever). So thanks for pointing that out.

I wasn't saying that scanlations are legal, just that they're not hurting the industry as much as fansubbing. Though if copyright holders have sued libraries, I guess libraries do harm the industry quite a bit, so, uh, nevermind. Just pretend I never said anything. I'll just hide in my Corner of Loneliness or something.

Exactly. I don't want to waste my money buying crappily dubbed series when the Japanese seiyus are fantastic in the first place, and I certainly don't want to support altering the storylines of my favourite series just because the producers don't want to offend North American "sensibilities." If I'm spending my money on a product in the first place, I don't want something that's hastily had parts cut out and dialogue changed so make it more "appropriate" - especially since that tends to screw up the storyline. With shows as popular as Bleach and Naruto being the exception, most of these shows seem to go straight to DVD anyway, so why bother changing them so much? And while I do understand the desire to cut out content deemed "offensive," let's be honest. Most people who watch anime, especially the kind that doesn't get TV airtime in North America, are seriously into it, not just kids channel surfing. If companies change who it's marketed to, they could save themselves a lot of work. Besides which, there's no way I'm going to spend a ton of money on just four episodes of a show. It's simply not worth it. I'm not rich, I don't have money to throw away, so if I'm going to buy a DVD, it'll be a cheaper one...maybe a movie that has just as much content but costs way less, for example?

However, I don't think manga's the same, just due to the scope - and excuse me for repeating what's been said above. There are so many manga series, many of which aren't ever going to be released in North America, so I have no guilt about reading it online. Also, I buy many of the series I read online, and I doubt I would if I didn't read them there. I don't know about other people, but I don't just buy a series because it looks interesting. I'll only buy it if I know I like it...hence I buy my Skip Beat, Special A, etc. every other month. Reading it online is the only thing that actually made me interested in buying these series, and I know that if I hadn't, there'd be no way in hell that I'd want to spend money on the hideous drawings that comprise most of Skip Beat. I also know, however, that even among my friends, I'm the rare exception to this. But honestly, doing the math, if one out of the four people I'm very close with who read manga buys it after reading it online, and is serious about wanting to get the series they love, publishing companies can still make a decent profit. I know I'd have a ton more money if I wasn't spending around $100 on it every month, that's for sure.

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*poof* "SHOUJOMAN IS HERE!"
~Just Lynz, drop the -ajw~

That was a really good article, i even read some of the comments.. It's totally understandable, and yea, you can definitely see the resemblance between the scanlation x fansubbing world.

BUT if people think that scanlation right now, is as bad as fansubbing.. that is wrong. Anime, they have licence companies becoming bankrupt and closing down, because most of the anime watching community would rather dl the fansubs then buy...

Where manga is right now, we are not there yet, not sure about the future though, most of us still go buy manga, because it is not as expensive as anime. Plus there is a small majority of manga licensers compared to the anime licensers, well if you compare the amount of all the anime/manga out there.

There is a wider variety of manga that has not been licensed, and, i'm sure that many groups are focusing on those rather then the licensed manga.

Oh.. and don't foget.. projects sometimes get dropped for no apparent reason by scanlation groups.. and if a company decides to license and release..I'm so sure.. there will be many who will go buy them.

Also.. i agree with the speed/licensed releases, seriously.. both should stop. Bad quality.. we don't need that, licensed manga, people, go buy your own.. .

Though, i have to say.. i am appauled by the quality of some licensed manga.. If you are a licensing group.. please release good quality, and edit especially redraw properly, it's what you get paid to do.. If you do it badly, some amateur group will pick it up and do a better job then you, and that is just plain embarrassing, plus you lose money.

So many old school scanlation groups abide with the rules of not releasing licensed manga and dropping them once they are licensed. I think we abide to those rules more then the anime community, yet there are many groups who still do and so many project stealers who are just plain despicable, damn you for stealing and releasing bad quality scans.

Last but not least, everyone, in both manga/anime community will all agree that sites who makes profits out of fansubbers/scanlation group releases.. should be shut down, better yet, they should get imprisoned.. for a few months, and get jail-raped, they are scums of scums.. How dare they make money when groups don't ask anything for return other then a thank you and some gratitude for the hard work, though there are groups who ask for donations...

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There will be bloodshed

Last but not least, everyone, in both manga/anime community will all agree that sites which makes profits out of fansubbers/scanlation group releases.. should be shut down, better yet, they should be imprisoned... and get jail-raped and get AIDS, they are scums of scums..

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There will be bloodshed

Was that an accident that you posted that last paragraph twice or were you trying to hammer a point home?

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My avatar was Yves Saint Laurent's The Black Evening Dress (with big bow) first shown in 1983, photographed from his 2002 retrospective and final show. [color=#CC0066]Check out some of his collections for free (pre-2008) HERE[/color] courtesy of FirstView.

* There's a LOT more manga than anime, and there are fewer scanlators than fansubbers. We can't possibly scanlate everything, so publishers will always have the possibility of licensing the many mangas that aren't being translated by absolutely anyone, legally or not.
* Good scanlations, by comparison, are harder to produce than good fansubs (bar a few exceptions). Fansubbers don't actually have to re-do the animation, only put stuff on top of it. We have to re-do plenty of art *AND* put stuff on top of it - and a single episode of an anime usually contains several chapters of the corresponding manga. Since manga is black and white, and (oh, the horror!) reading, it has fewer fans outside Japan. So the e-penis gain is smaller ;)
* It was previously mentioned that, unlike fansubbed anime, scanlated manga is at a severe disadvantage over printed manga, as are all e-books. Nothing beats the experience of holding the book in your hands and reading from it. You can do it a lot more comfortably, and you can carry it everywhere and read it everywhere.

Most of what tofusensei said was very sensible, but I disagree with him on two points: First, not everyone does it for the e-penis. It's true that (I am convinced that) practically all of the newbie crapsubbers do it for that reason, but there are many people doing it for their own reasons. We're all different, and so are our reasons. And second, if the industry doesn't want european scanlations or fansubs (or from any other part of the world, for that matter) they should just come and sell their stuff here. Don't force us to order from overseas and pay outrageous shipping and customs fees. That's stupid. I bet most of the self-righteous drop-it-when-its-licensed groups don't drop a project if it's licensed in the UK, or in Australia, or do they? Of course, most projects are licensed in the US first, which means the game is only unfair for us. There's still very few manga on sale in my country, and my scanlation group has people from all over the world (all five admins are european, from a different country each).

That said, personally, I fully agree with putting as much effort as possible in unlicensed mangas as opposed to licensed mangas. I'm against starting projects that are already being released in english in another country (as opposed to projects that are two years behind us). And everyone who has affordable access to manga should buy it as much as possible. Even though we have asked for donations a few times in the past, most of the money people donate to us goes towards buying manga (and therefore the industry) and we are against donations on a general basis.

People charging money for fansubs and scanlations should die horrible deaths.

haha there were many grammar mistakes (still are) but your latter question was the right one XD. No one wants to read such a long comment.. therefore i wanted to point out the most relevant

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There will be bloodshed

i disagree w/ everyone that licensed manga shouldn't be scanslated. at least not series that have had 200+ chapters out before they were licensed. if i've been reading a series for years and then it finally gets licensed i REALLY do not want to wait another few years for american companies to finally catch up. call me selfish or whatever but im not willing to shell out money AND wait a few years for manga to be scanslated. also if they released up to date versions of shonen jump and the like i'd be much more willing to buy those.