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The Lolicon Shotacon Debate

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Post #535090 - Reply to (#535086) by se7a
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6:35 am, Apr 29 2010
Posts: 29


nubman pretty much covered it. My comments were not directed at you but rather at the situation on a whole. You and I may define loli as pre-teen characters but that is obviously not the case with the powers that be whose definition of loli seem to include everyone below the age of 18. Hell, Kaichou wa Maid-sama was taken down initially as well and as far as I recall I do not remember really any ecchi moments or anything explicit from that manga. If eroticism and sex were the only things targetted then there may be a way around it but clearly that is not really the case. And that raises the question what they would consider eroticism? innuendo? pantyshot? if so under their umbrella blocking of "loli" the number of series affected may well be significantly over a meager 1%.

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Member

12:30 pm, Apr 29 2010
Posts: 7


As was said before, they get one inch and take a mile. What you're doing here is great.
The thing I don't get is that you only provide information on what's new, not actually hosting the explicit content yourself. Yet you're getting this problem . . . Who cares what they think! The service you're providing helps tons of people know where to find what they want no matter the content.
Why restrict links? Content I can understand (though I rather they don't), but links aren't hurting anybody. If they want to see the content they go to another site, you are only providing them information on where to go, not the content itself. If they don't want the content displayed, then don't provide service to the site that has the content.
I use this site quite often. I view some of the manga that are considered to have this like "dance in the vampire bund"(one of the top manga(#25) on www.onemanga.com). Anybody that reads that knows that it's not focused on such as is being discussed. In fact, the only reason it is considered is probably since they show a girl getting bathed, or some such. What adult hasn't bathed a child(or childlike body anyways)? A lot of which that will get banned has content that occurs in life somewhere along the way.
Of course there is content that is extremely focused on such explicit content, but don't deprive us of part of such a great service.
As has been said before, just as we have the right to view content we have the right to ignore it.
Don't restrict links. Don't remove them. So many will lose out on part of the great service you are providing.
I'm sorry if this is a little halfwitted as I'm in a hurry.
I understand that you are having cash flow problems now, and hopefully people are willing to donate. (Unfortunately for myself I can't as I'm currently unemployed) And maybe you could find another advertiser that is willing to work with you.

Post #535092 - Reply to (#535087) by nubman
Member

2:00 pm, Apr 29 2010
Posts: 23


The thing is, I can bet that if there wasn't this loli/shota recent issue we probably would not hear anything from advertisers. -IF- that is what caused the problem, them it's fairly easy to deal with it.

Post #535093 - Reply to (#535091) by xXBlueFireXx
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5:33 pm, Apr 29 2010
Posts: 58


*Shakes head* Unfortunately I see the logic behind the attack. They're thinking if you're going to kill a plant, cut the trunk instead of the pulling off individual leaves. By attacking MU they're attempting to cut off a branch that leads to those leaves.

Post #535094 - Reply to (#535042) by xtr3m3dude
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7:29 pm, Apr 29 2010
Posts: 2342


Well Danbooru still has ads on their website, so I think they may be doing something right.

Defaulting mature content to off does sounds like a good idea, though.

Post #535095 - Reply to (#535093) by Achiyugo
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12:48 am, Apr 30 2010
Posts: 15


The "Logic" they are using is kill the plant by making the ground toxic for the seed. Kill off the bad thing, but as a side effect kill off a lot more than intended including some good things.

Post #535096
Member

1:06 am, Apr 30 2010
Posts: 1


I do think the movement and all the controversy over such material is really stupid. The problem is ultimately that people want to enforce the censorship of something that bothers their sensibilities without acknowledging that as being their intention. To get around that, and in the US the fact you can't just block any expression because some might take offense to it, they champion it as a battle for protecting the children, or women in the case of the rape games issue. Except here's where I find it fundamentally absurd- when doing this, you're asserting that basic human rights should be extended to fictional beings, people that don't exist, the fabrications of someone's imagination. It only can balloon from there because if you extend some human rights to fictional people, there's no reason to deny them in other contexts- fundamentally one cannot be human enough to have rights in only some situations but be human in others. It's even been satired in some eroge recently- characters actually bringing this up and musing over the serious existential and social complications that would arise from granting actual legal rights to fictional characters that have no capacity to think, act, and feel, and wouldn't even exist, without the command of their creators, noting that in all consistency, they should also be allowed to vote and note how absurd that is and people need to stop butting into things that don't matter.

BUT

That issue is not really relevant to the problem MU faces. This is ultimately about funding. The real problem is that google's ToS are/were being selectively enforced and MU is caught up in that crackdown. They're completely allowed to decide what they want to support in their contracts, THAT isn't a censorship problem per se. It boils down to two results: surrender the ad revenue and maintain the principles that information shouldn't be censored because some take offense to it (what this rule of the ToS encompasses, essentially); or gut the offending data and keep the revenue? Personally, I would prefer the former option: keep the data and find an alternate source of funding. I know that's probably asking a lot of MU, I'm sure finding a new advertising revenue source isn't easy, let alone one that won't take issue with the content involved. I'm not saying it's a primary fix, but the blow of reduced revenues can be mitigated with a donation system that I'm sure most of us are willing to contribute to.

Post #535097 - Reply to (#535088) by Pitman360
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3:43 am, Apr 30 2010
Posts: 8


I voted 'I don't care', but not because I don't care about the issue or the site, rather I would've voted 'Do what you have to' if that was an option, but it isn't and "i don't care" was closest in meaning to that and I'm sure others who voted it interpreted this way as well. So I wouldn't call it the option unhelpful.

I'd rather the site owners do what they have to keep the site up and running, than lose it doing nothing.
Now if they can get consistent server funding without removing anything, thats great. But the reality is that may not be possible.

Post #535098 - Reply to (#535092) by se7a
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7:00 am, Apr 30 2010
Posts: 3


I really dont think so
even if it is what caused it they are in the spotlight now, I really can't see them saying that once loli/shota is removed they'll be turning a blind eye to other mature content
even then if they did
These types of moral crusades aren't exactly torrents that stop firing,
sooner or later that torrent is gonna be pointed at us.
maybey you doubt that this torrent can be pointed at anyone else
so here I'll give you an example of how it can.

adsense TOS prohibits violent material
so lets take something like that
say
Akumetsu,
someone reads this or hears about this and become offended or thinks material such Akumetsu is dangerous,
they can successfully argue that those hosting or linking to this violates adsense TOS
I mean the manga glorifies killing politicians and vigilantism, some can even argue that it encourages it.
that's just one example
now I don't know you, so for all I know maybe you would support having Akumetsu removed ,I'm going by the assumption that you are more reasonable than that, if I am wrong in that assumption then I do apologize.
in either case
were do we draw the line?

Post #535099 - Reply to (#535067) by se7a
Member

7:43 am, Apr 30 2010
Posts: 3


We don't value freedom above everything else but we do value it a lot,
our mindset is this, if something is to be banned there needs to be a valid reason
"I just don't like it" or finding something reprehensible or offensive is not a valid reason,
things need to present an actual danger to be banned.
actual child pornography should banned because it presents a danger by hurting kids.
lolicon art shouldn't cause well it doesn't really harm kids or present a public danger,
you may argue that it does by saying that lolicon causes men to turn into savage uncontrollable sexual predators, personally I don't think that the case but back on topic...
if you simply oppose sexually explicit lolicon on this site because you think its offensive, disgusting and reprehensible and don't want to be associated with it, thats fine.
but do note that there are many people out there that are offended by diffrent things
if the site goes on and appeases you, why shouldn't they also appease those other people?

Member

8:21 am, Apr 30 2010
Posts: 7


Maybe we could boycott the ad companies? I don't know if there are enough people, but maybe if nobody clicks on an ad from any website, then maybe it'll have a large enough effect?
Though, this will probably do more damage to websites themselves than the ad service provider.
It's not right when companies have so much power that it can control the media itself and even the government . . .

We have lost between 10-20%(at least 150 at the moment) of the manga hosted on onemanga (Until they sort through it), and probably a lot more on mangafox.
Most likely we will lost around 5-10% of the manga overall if they are strict
This site, however, will lose much more since it acts as a database for what is out there.
That is supposed to be what this site is for: not what the content itself, but a collection of what there is, who released it, and information on what it is.

Companies already have control over a lot of media out there. We need to fight for our right to view what we want (at least for fictional beings). Fictions doesn't hurt anybody, and what happens outside of the web will happen whether or not this content is on the web.

Post #535101
Member

12:45 pm, Apr 30 2010
Posts: 1


I think all links to lolicon and shotacon should be deleted. Honestly, the pressure on Japan is totally justified and marking it as illegal as well. To show kids as sexual objects is just plainly disguisting.
I have nothing against smut/echi/hentai, but loli/shota is just ewk.

Post #535102 - Reply to (#535098) by nubman
Member

1:44 pm, Apr 30 2010
Posts: 23


I just can't see that happening. There are thousands of violent movies. There is violence in every HQ. It's something common in America. They are NOT going to ban it, if it isn't real or really extreme. But that is not the case with CP. People just have way less tolerance.

Post #535103 - Reply to (#535099) by nubman
Member

1:56 pm, Apr 30 2010
Posts: 23


Please don't try to twist what I said. My opinion is really understandable in the last few posts.
No, I don't like Loli, but I don't really care if it's in here. BUT YES, I do think that adsense is right in not wanting to have Loli on contracted sites, it's their business and they can do whatever they want with it. No, I'm not trying to impose my moral standards on you sick people who like to see children having sex. YES, I have the RIGHT to think that people like that have something missing in their heads, just like you have the right to like CP or Rape or anything and EVEN have the right to think that I'm the sick bastard one for not liking it.

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY:Yes, if it is going to hurt this site, just take it all off. It's better to have some part of manga updates than risking not having it at all.

Post #535104 - Reply to (#535077) by KiTA
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Member

5:00 pm, Apr 30 2010
Posts: 58


If what you say is true, than he is probably the biggest troll ever recorded.

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