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Poor opinion of Humanity

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Post #599433
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Not-BlackOrion
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2:02 am, May 17 2013
Posts: 764


I like the manga, and i want to make that clear, but i can't help thinking the Mangaka either has a terrible opinion of humanity, or wants to attract a public with that mindset.

If anything, humans are amazing animals, we become what we are today because when we had to fight with other, stronger, animals (for example the Mammoth or the Smilodon) we acted as one, and that was instinctive, and so it is thinking about only ourselves now that we have large numbers and with our ability to reproduce, since only a few hundred humans can become several thousand on a long time spam, it's smarter to keep each life, like mouses or other small mammals with short reproduction cycles
We are adaptive animals, that made us the Alpha race on the world, and that has always been our strong point, so, at least for me, it feels odd to see how a humanity with a mindset that doesn't fit their situation is used on this history.

Am I the only one who thinks like this?

Post #599621
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10:27 am, May 18 2013
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Actually humans were represented extremely right in this story

Reproduction at a higher rate? this would backfire on them. They have limited land and limited resourced. If their number even increase more than it should be humans would start to fight against themselves rather than join hands and defeat dem titans.

Humanity over history are defined as selfish. a human's own safety was a priority ever since the creation of this world. so fighting together hand in hand against something that is 500 times stronger with a death probability over 100% is basically too much. if they can just live peacefully inside the walls that would be all what they all ask for.

All of humanity joining hands is THE MOST IMPOSSIBLE TASK EVER and I bet everyone knows that instinctively. (and this was discussed several times from different angles in this manga)

comparing animals with titans seems weird here. Actually it's not sure that Mammoth or smilodon's extinction was caused by humans, it could be by the ice age and also humans lead to the extinction of many species even though they weren't a threat to humanity which is probably the case with mammoths and smilodon too. (some people still prey on animals for a reason other than food and call if a sport but that's an entirely another story)

Titans prey on humans specifically while animals doesn't attack humans unless humans enter their territory. Titans' sole purpose is eating humans to the very last. it doesn't matter in anyway. They travel to where humans gather and eat them. This is exactly why human race is on the verge of extinction in this story. Animals doesn't prey specifically on humans.

I pretty much love this realistic representation of humanity's ugly nature!

Post #599663
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4:39 pm, May 18 2013
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First you need to think this is based in another timeline. We do not know the initial human population.

If you look at our own timeline, you would note that Earth's human population has been slow but steady rising with few dips when major outbreaks occur (example Black Death). A 1000 years ago it was around 300million, 2000 years ago it was around 200million. Our population only reached the 1billion mark within the 19th century and began to accelerate with the advent of industrial revolution, and advances in medicine. Any outbreaks of plagues caused massive dips in population (SnK mentioned they had one and most likely had many before and after the walled city was build). When the Black Plague occurred, Europeans thought it was the end of times. You can see this happening over and over again in history. The mindset is SnK is realistic.

In SnK, the technology they have can be compared to those in our late middle ages. The technology is not really designed to take on fast moving targets, and without the industrial age such weaponry was slow to build and expensive. Of course the 3D Gear is advance, its more advance than anything we have now eek . Well I guess that's where the fiction comes from.

Imaging fighting fast moving, human like giants who can only be killed if you slice the back of their neck. If this was the case in real history and we had the same weaponry we would have been extinct. No way in hell are 3D Gear can come to be reality. Oh also women are not as strong as men roll. You need to leave reality at the doorstep when you are reading such mangas. They are fun and show us a world that cannot really exist within our own.

Post #599725 - Reply to (#599663) by DrManga
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Not-BlackOrion
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1:59 am, May 19 2013
Posts: 764


Well i strongly disagree with you people;

First Hihghsky argument.


First you are being kind of biased, a strong hate four our own race had been common since a long time ago, but it could be easily attributed to us being our only enemy, we killed all challenges a long time ago and now it's Humans we fear, so our behaviour makes perfect sense. What I'm trying to point out here is that the Humans showed on this Manga have a mentality that better fits another kind of background and with out a "CLEAR ENEMY", this is really, REALLY, important. We hadn't had a clear enemy in almost all our history, but as i said, when we did humans worked as one, otherwise we could't had conquered the other,stronger, animals we lived with at some point. All i'm saying here is that the humans on this story feel like humans who lived all they life on a world like ours and then went onto this world.



Then DrManga:

First i want to make clear than i know you don't need to be realistic on a manga, I'm just saying that this humans don't feel like the ones that should be living that life and details like that do matter for me in a story, maybe the whole point is showing a Humanity like the one we have now, who grow in a world with only humans as enemies and show it in such a background which is a really good idea. I just didn't saw it like that.

Either way, about the black death, the fundamental difference is that a sickness has no form (At least not one we can see or picture just like that), so people tough it was a holy punishment; Here we have a creatures to hate and blame for all evil, i just don't see humans in such a situation blaming each other, no because I believe in humans or something like that, but because i believe we are animals and animals have instincts. As of right now our instincts are to hate each others, but that can be explained in the lack of any other form of rival except our selves, when having a common enemy humans would unite, and that had been show on a minor scale several times over our history, when the population of one country worked together against another.


To put it in simple terms (because i recognize this might be a mess of worlds), in case of having a common enemy humans tend to be too occupied on hating that enemy to hate each others, or more likely we normaly hate each others because we don't have an outlet for our natural hate.

-----


We can see this on other animals as an example, the greater their population the greater the chance of a conflict within itself (for example, ants), but in the same way when there are less of them and a clear rival (for example a shark against dolphins) the number one priority is to destroy the enemy.


----


If we see ourselves with clear eyes all you can see is an animal, as ugly or beautiful as any other. I can't help but feel that many of us can't accept that we are no better or worst than any other of the many creatures than live on earth, we are not the only ones that hurt nature, we just are too many for that damage to be overlooked and have the bad luck of having developed a conscience that reminds us of what we had done.

Last edited by BlackOrion at 2:25 am, May 19

Post #599726 - Reply to (#599725) by BlackOrion
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2:28 am, May 19 2013
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Skimmed over most of your post but when i read the last part the only thing I could think of was http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjDbPJJGKgY
on a more serious note I mostly disagree, the only reason we prevailed against animals was mostly due to our intelligence and ability to adapt the only times we have worked together has been against ourselves. Humans are rather accurately depicted to some extent in the manga as greedy and selfish and with the technology they had and strength they had to bow down to the superior power so they secluded themselves into what they believed to be safe area.

Post #599727
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2:28 am, May 19 2013
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I think first of all you need to explain and support your point.

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Post #599730 - Reply to (#599727) by FormX
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Not-BlackOrion
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3:03 am, May 19 2013
Posts: 764


Quote from FormX
I think first of all you need to explain and support your point.


Mostly my point is that we as human had developed a self hating mentality because we lack anything else to direct our hate to, and tough this would be as good as any other chance to see how people react when i go against it and try to show my hypothesis at the same time.



Quote
Skimmed over most of your post but when i read the last part the only thing I could think of was http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjDbPJJGKgY
on a more serious note I mostly disagree, the only reason we prevailed against animals was mostly due to our intelligence and ability to adapt the only times we have worked together has been against ourselves. Humans are rather accurately depicted to some extent in the manga as greedy and selfish and with the technology they had and strength they had to bow down to the superior power so they secluded themselves into what they believed to be safe area.



If anything when we fought against the giant mammals we didn't have such amazing technologies, it was team work and a good planed strategy that put the person playing the role of the bait in a life or death situation that lead us to victory.


Post #599731 - Reply to (#599433) by BlackOrion
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Mome Basher
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3:07 am, May 19 2013
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Quote from BlackOrion
I like the manga, and i want to make that clear, but i can't help thinking the Mangaka either has a terrible opinion of humanity, or wants to attract a public with that mindset.

or, as a writer/creator, he created a fictional world filled with fictional characters with a different way of thinking than ours?
You know...because he can?

Don't read too far deep into simple things, man.

Or rather, have you not considered the fact that the very existence of the Titans has hindered Man's growth? You bring in animals/predators from a period when Man roamed the earth - ones that can't even compare to the Titans. Why not the dinosaurs? Because they would be a better comparison to the Titans. They were big, ruthless and overpowering - like titans. If mankind were to have existed during their period, do you think we would have advanced as easily?

Last edited by Scyfon at 3:17 am, May 19

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Post #599732 - Reply to (#599731) by Scyfon
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Not-BlackOrion
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3:08 am, May 19 2013
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Quote from Scyfon
or, as a writer/creator, he created a fictional world filled with fictional characters with a different way of thinking than ours?
You know...because he can?

Don't read too far deep into simple things, man.



Don't Worry too much Scyfon, i get it I'm just criticizing that work of fiction and having fun with that.

Post #599733
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3:13 am, May 19 2013
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Then, if all is about uniting against the common enemy... When did we ever had to do this ? The notion of mankind itself came at an age where it was already standing on top of the animal reign, which wasn't "strong" but actually just "tall". The problem wasn't solved by massive alliances : men just started creating adapted weapons, and hunted in tribes like they always did. Like soldiers fight titans in SnK.

Since then, things evolved, for sure. Nowadays, we sure prefer to hunt alone, now that we have hegemony and reason as main characteristics. Out of these, we created greed and profit, and made them one of our priorities since antiquity. The story is taking place in a post-medieval era, so titans could be but tools for dictatorship - for the king, the nobles and the Lord Money.

If that was the case, then it'd be humans versus humans again. We've had several records of this kind of twisted politic in our history till today.

We've yet to see humans from inner walls unveiling all of their secrets. We've yet to be sure there is no other human city or basement. We've yet to know what are the different clans and why are they fighting. We've yet to discover what are titans.

We've yet to read enough of the manga to understand everything that is going on.

...

And for now I think the author has been pretty realistic about manking.

Post #599734 - Reply to (#599733) by Felin_noir
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Not-BlackOrion
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3:19 am, May 19 2013
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Quote from Felin_noir
Then, if all is about uniting against the common enemy... When did we ever had to do this ? The notion of mankind itself came at an age where it was already standing on top of the animal reign, which wasn't "strong" but actually just "tall". The problem wasn't solved by massive allia ...



You know, i had ulterior motives for making this game( Honest to god Freudian slip, i meant Thread) , but i really had been thinking it was a mistake exactly for what you said, The story seems to be leading to a "It was Human vs Human after all"
Still, the mentality of the people should't be affected by things they don't know so it's not like my whole point becomes void. My real quarry with this manga could be summarised as that to me it feels like it tries to be darker than necessary with the objective of being attractive to people that like that kind of setting or because the Mangaka him/herself has a mentality such as that, but i decided to use the worlds i used because of what i said on my response to FormX. It might had been a bad idea tough, because now I'm kind of bored of the whole thing and this kind of thing attract walls of text most of the time.


Last edited by BlackOrion at 3:41 am, May 19

Post #599745
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5:41 am, May 19 2013
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I still don't see your point.

I mean, they know it's not like other animals. They know the common enemy's different. A real predator for them.

The dark side you were talking about was about "Human vs Human". That's from the reader's point of vue.

But inside SnK, what makes the dark feeling is the fact that they don't have a clue : "humanity", waiting to be eaten by aliens or whatever. You say, "Ok, why don't they gather and make some plan ?" The problem is, who thinks ? Who is the king ? Who controls the Church ? If all land and spiritual leaders manage it well, to fool non-educated peasant isn't so hard.

That wouldn't be darker than necessary. Watch North Korea, if they had the technology to make titan-like being, they would have the influence on their people to do it.

Post #599767 - Reply to (#599725) by BlackOrion
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1:21 pm, May 19 2013
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The idea that all of humanity would unite against a common external enemy is nothing but a presumption without any historical precedence. Humans society, even in a state of war have always had disputes and opposing factions within the same side. The unity is held by a loose thread and can easily be cut. And when all hell is broke loose and the side is loosing treachery and blame tends to follow closely behind. History shows that pretty well, where countries would switch side or countries that go into internal strife after loss was seen as a foregone conclusion.

In a world were people have different ideas, perception, religions, cultures, languages its hard for them to come together. We are not talking about the modern age with mass communication network and literature.


I have to agree with BlackOrion, it seems to be human vs human. But can't figure out why. I hope it not something as pathetic as environmental issues laugh. I fear whatever the reason for creating such monsters would be a big disappointment.

Post #599879 - Reply to (#599745) by Felin_noir
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Not-BlackOrion
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8:31 am, May 20 2013
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Quote from Felin_noir
I still don't see your point.

I mean, they know it's not like other animals. They know the common enemy's different. A real predator for them.

The dark side you were talking about was about "Human vs Human". That's from the reader's point of vue.

But inside SnK, what makes the dark feeli ...



Ok, how about this; I tough, "It's odd that they are fighting against each other that fast, there is an easier outlet for hate on the titans, they can be blamed for everything that is wrong, it looks like they lived on a world were humans are the only enemy, also, being on such a situation it's odd that they can't think of something better than the 3D gear and the walls, making an underground city (for example) seems like an easy to think idea even with out the pressure", but it seems that there was a hidden reason behind both their fight and their lack of ideas, or more like the lack of actions.

To be honest i had come to notice this was just my mistake, I though the humans here acted oddly for the situation that we were shown, but it seems that wasn't a mistake on the magaka but rather a hint that the situation wasn't quite what it looked like.

And yes, I'm also hoping this doesn't end up with a cliche reason for the whole thing



The other thing was to see people react when i try a defend us humans, we live in a world where we are our only enemy, so it's quite common to develop a hate for our kind, I was sure more than one person would react

Last edited by BlackOrion at 8:42 am, May 20

Post #599919
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4:18 pm, May 20 2013
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Closed at original poster's request

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