For anyone who wants to have a long in-depth discussion about manga.

tl;dr at bottom (er... midwayish)

This will be edited and will converted to point form once the questions are answered.

I've been dissatisfied with the ratings I was giving each series and what I find to be blatantly skewed ratings in general. This resulted in a desire to examine each series in-depth and evaluate it's merits objectively (as much as an art form can be.) So does anyone else want to debate the merits of each series? (Well as far as we get anyway in anywhere.)

The first step is to determine the criteria used to evaluate each series. A rough list includes: plot, character development, art, originality, on top of anything else people may suggest (options include depth (rereadability), longevity (is quality consistent the length of the series, is it too long?), relevance (does it discuss current issues or age-relevant issues?)

If possible two reviews are posted one positive, one negative and discussion stems from there. If you really want to start off a series just reserve a post and say if you like or dislike the series and you'll write the review for that series (add ratings.) I'm willing to play devils advocate if no one is willing to and assume a negative (or positive) stance on any given series.

An important notion to keep in mind is bias. It would be preferable that every participant would proclaim his or her bias towards a certain genre or title when evaluating it, but nobody will force you. Does the series hold any nostalgic value for you? If so please indicate. How long has it been (roughly) since you read a series? Again please indicate.

Each series will receive two ratings one genre-neutral rating (for general populace) and one genre-specific rating. I'd prefer not to have gender-related genres be the focus of genre-specific ratings but you decide.

I'm assuming we'd do one series per week, that would give enough time for everyone to provide feedback. I think we should start from highest rated series and work our way down ignoring ones that aren't long enough or haven't had enough chapters scanlated or ones no one has read. Things will speed up if it actually gets moving nobody will want to rehash old discussions.

tl;dr Objectively rate series as a group.

Questions before we begin:
- Anyone interested?
- What criteria should we use outside of plot, character development and artwork?
- Should gender related genres be the focus for the genre-specific rating? (Y/N)
- How long should the discussion for each series last?
- Opinion on artwork is subjective and probably should hold less weight than other categories. Thoughts?
- If we do Claymore we'd do at most one of (actually we won't) One Piece / Naruto / Bleach / etc. if at all. Do you agree with this policy? Same applies to other rather generic series.
- If you want to discuss a specific series please say so. We'll do that first.

Tentative schedule:
Week 1: Claymore
Week 2: Skip Beat
Week 3: Vagabond
Week 4: Vampire Knights
Week 5: Ouran Koukou Host Club
Week 6: Fullmetal Alchemist
Week 7: Great Teacher Onizuka
Week 8: Shin Angyo Onshi
Week 9: Tokyo Crazy Paradise
Week 10: Vinland Saga

Remember:
- Spoiler tags
- Leave bias out of the topic as much as possible.
- An average manga gets 5/10 not 8.5/10
- Final rating is not an average.
- If plot (or anything else) doesn't apply to the series (e.g. Yotsuba&! it doesn't there is no real need to bring it up besides stating Plot: N/A.) ignore it for the final rating. Saying there isn't any plot is enough to tell a reader whether it's his/her cup of tea.
- I guess ratings are PM'd to me (after discussion is complete, up to a week after) and I'll compile them.
- Anything else I forgot? Remind me.

Other: I may decide to compile an abridged version of the discussion in a single word document and upload it and link it here probably (probably after the discussion on Vagabond is complete.) Depending on how fast we go I'll update when I have time.

Hopefully this can get some quality discussion going. If not I tried.

700+ words why can't I start my essay...

Hello! Don't despair!

Sounds like a good idea, would certainly give a more informative, fair review of a series. I don't frequent these boards as much anymore (or I'd have replied sooner), but I definately don't want to see this die.

I'm not so familiar with some of the manga suggested and thus can't give input in those cases, but if many users participate that wont be a problem.

Quick copy and paste because I don't have a great deal of time.

Questions before we begin:
- Anyone interested?
Yes!
- What criteria should we use outside of plot, character development and artwork?
Might be an idea to keep it flexible and dependant on the manga, i.e. plot/character development wont apply to certain manga that depend on a lack of said fields.
- How long should the discussion for each series last?
Untill a substantial amount has taken place, we could always have several discussions going on at once.
- Opinion on artwork is subjective and probably should hold less weight than other categories. Thoughts?
Perhaps, but for me at least, artwork plays a large part. If I was interested in written content alone, I guess I'd read a novel. (Though saying that, I've read some of the manga with... less commendable artwork... ;) )
- If we do Claymore we'd do at most one of (actually we won't) One Piece / Naruto / Bleach / etc. if at all. Do you agree with this policy? Same applies to other rather generic series.
Yes. Taking out the big 3-4 early would probally also help raise awareness/interest people into contributing.

- Anyone interested?
Count on me.
- What criteria should we use outside of plot, character development and artwork?
Well, i think those cover it quite well.
- Should gender related genres be the focus for the genre-specific rating? (Y/N)
What do you mean?
- How long should the discussion for each series last?
One week is enough i think.
- Opinion on artwork is subjective and probably should hold less weight than other categories. Thoughts?
I think it should be equitative or at least divide them fairly, like giving some points for art and some points for plot, in example, certain title has 2/5 in art but 4/5 in plot.
- If we do Claymore we'd do at most one of (actually we won't) One Piece / Naruto / Bleach / etc. if at all. Do you agree with this policy? Same applies to other rather generic series.
Yes.


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- Golden Kamui





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- Anyone interested?
Sure an occasion to bash in depth Claymore I wouldn't miss that
- What criteria should we use outside of plot, character development and artwork?
Well plot for me is just the story.... There are a lot of other things around it which aren't strictly "plot" ... Like the art of storytelling : why a mangaka will focus on a scene , choose a certain shot instead of an other , et....
it makes the final mark for 80% ....
- Should gender related genres be the focus for the genre-specific rating? (Y/N)
don't get the meaning of your question
- How long should the discussion for each series last?
I agree with what a previous guy said : 1 week is enough .
- Opinion on artwork is subjective and probably should hold less weight than other categories. Thoughts?
Yes and no
Yes if you mean that some very characteristic style appeal only to some people ...
And so considering that a serie can be berated because of very personal esthetic feeling I
Like Ares for instance which is well drawn in my opinion while many people .can't stand this "childish" and weird drawing .
But no if you mean that we don't have to consider the link between artwork and story : some stories only makes sense with a certain type of artwork : clover , ares , taniguchi's work ....
Great comics have a spirit , a kind of aura around them ... Like a special universe...
You can't reach this special level without an artwork which fits the story . Alan Moore in comics is well known for choosing very carefully his artist on each new work hence the culte status of many of his works that are universe of their own.
- If we do Claymore we'd do at most one of (actually we won't) One Piece / Naruto / Bleach / etc. if at all. Do you agree with this policy? Same applies to other rather generic series.
Yes
- If you want to discuss a specific series please say so. We'll do that first.
Just the series currently published ?
Just the manga ? or also the manhwa
Otherwise I would go for Hikaru no Go , Deathnote Monster and 20th century Boys ... It would be indeed interesting to make parallel between different works of a same author on 2 or 3 weeks ... For instance I know somes guys that think that even if the drawing of obata improved his writer was way better on Hikaru no Go than on Deathnote (and I think the same way even if I love Deathnote ) . Or the fact that Monster is generally deemed as the masterpiece of Urasawa while I think that 20 th is much more interesting .

Last edited by ghinzdra at 12:19 am, Mar 14 2008

- Anyone interested?
Sounds fun. Kind of like a book club but for manga.
- What criteria should we use outside of plot, character development and artwork? Those are good. How about some subsections under plot like originality and pacing.
- Should gender related genres be the focus for the genre-specific rating? (Y/N)
Do you mean like guys rate shounen/seinen and girls shoujo/josei? If so than No.
- How long should the discussion for each series last?
at least a week.
- Opinion on artwork is subjective and probably should hold less weight than other categories. Thoughts?
I think art is important. Maybe judge by the style rather than compare something like Vampire Knight to Something like Twin Spica. Completely different and can't be compared other than preference. There is technical ratings too such as proportions, details, accuracy on perspectives.
- If we do Claymore we'd do at most one of (actually we won't) One Piece / Naruto / Bleach / etc. if at all. Do you agree with this policy? Same applies to other rather generic series.
Thats fine.

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"Tu es responsable pour toujours de ce que tu as approvoise." Le Renard en "The Little Prince" Antoine de St. Exupery.

- Anyone interested?

I'd be up for it. I'm a fan of serious, in-depth debate and discussion.

- What criteria should we use outside of plot, character development and artwork?

I'd be tempted to suggest the quality of writing. And if we all spoke and read Japanese, I would. Unfortunately, most of us do not, I believe, and seeing as we're thus judging translations, official or otherwise... that point loses all value.

I actually think we shouldn't restrict ourselves to specific categories too much. I mean, we should really just look at the positive and negative points to each title. Trying to categorize everything would be very tedious. Things like pacing, tone, depth, and whatnot, that all apply to the story, but go beyond simply plot, all need to be considered... but shouldn't necessarily be made specific criteria.

Indeed, specifying criteria would be more trouble than good, I'd think.

- Should gender related genres be the focus for the genre-specific rating? (Y/N)

If I understand your meaning...

We should note whether or not the title could be widely enjoy by both genders, only males, or only females. It shouldn't effect the score, however. We shouldn't be judging based on target demographic.

- How long should the discussion for each series last?

Around a week should be good. Too much longer would get tiresome, but we'd need time to cover various points.

- Opinion on artwork is subjective and probably should hold less weight than other categories. Thoughts?

Art is perhaps the only thing that should have it's own specific category, every time. How much weight it should hold overall is debatable, but it's certainly important.

I think we could avoid getting too subjective if we focused on the quality of the artwork, over the style. Judging based on things like, consistency in character design, proper proportions(unless things are supposed to be all wacky), diversity in character design, use of backgrounds, and whether or not the flow of the story is easy to follow(some manga can get confusing if the art doesn't properly showcase the events that are transpiring). There are all sorts of technical criteria within the category of art.

So, my answer is, we should take the quality of the art seriously, but focus our judgment on its technical merits over the author's style.

(However bonus points could be awarded for particularly impressive/original styles, and points deducted for styles that are altogether too generic[a la many shoujo titles].)

- If we do Claymore we'd do at most one of (actually we won't) One Piece / Naruto / Bleach / etc. if at all. Do you agree with this policy? Same applies to other rather generic series.

I might like to do Bleach... Beyond its typical Shonen Jump story, it's got some style. And I don't just mean the art. One Piece and Naruto are negligible, though.

Er, I digress. I agree with the general idea that we shouldn't repeatedly discuss shonen epic after shonen epic, and generally series' that are too generic.

The only downside to that agreement, is it means we won't be discussing many silly harem comedies.(re:Guilty pleasure.)



I guess that's all I have to say for now. In general, I really like the idea, and would be eager to participate.

Yay, topic revival!

Questions I didn't have time for (etc):

- Should gender related genres be the focus for the genre-specific rating? (Y/N)

I'd like to avoid too much focus on the 4 demographics, but I don't doubt that they play a large part in a readers choice of manga. I'd go with non gender-specific for the genres, but definately give them a mention somewhere.

- How long should the discussion for each series last?

Time enough for somebody who hasn't read a manga before to read (more than) a few volumes and take part in the discussion, treating it a bit like a book club.

- - -

How long would you say an unfinished manga should be minimum before a review?

I'm sorry, but I discuss books in-depth enough in Lit class, I like to read superficial crap in order to shove out all the retarded symbolism that my teacher tells me that I really can't see.

- Anyone interested?
TOTALLY.

- What criteria should we use outside of plot, character development and artwork?
Creativity - ie. is it a new idea or just recycling something old, and if option b does it do a good job of it or does it leave something to be desired

- Should gender related genres be the focus for the genre-specific rating? (Y/N)
Umm...I'm not smart enough to understand this statement.

- How long should the discussion for each series last?
One week.

- Opinion on artwork is subjective and probably should hold less weight than other categories. Thoughts?
Pretty much, but if everyone agrees that the artwork's horrid, then it's obviously gone beyond being subjective and just sucks, so could hold as much weight. Just saying.

- If we do Claymore we'd do at most one of (actually we won't) One Piece / Naruto / Bleach / etc. if at all. Do you agree with this policy? Same applies to other rather generic series.
Yes. Especially Bleach, because I've already read it all and could be lazy.

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*poof* "SHOUJOMAN IS HERE!"
~Just Lynz, drop the -ajw~

Okay, so plenty have said that they want to participate. I myself want to too. But when are we actually starting?

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