I went for Josei, but compared to Shonen and Shojo there's not so much of it.
What I mean is, that when you feel like "I've read it all" with Shojo/Shonen, it's easy to find a new series to read, but with Josei you may have to wait a bit... *shrugs*

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well, I am still curious where this hate comes from, I mean I can understand that people feel disgusted by that (I feel disgusted by beetroot), but I just don't see the reason for hating people who would just read this... (as long as they don't force me to eat that sorry excuse of a vegetable I don't see a reason to throw torches on them...)

Considering about 1/5 of us here on the forum is reading (mostly) yaoi, the number of encounters is ridiculously small.

And btw a non-yaoi-fandom-member started this whole thing... It's not even their fault ><
If yaoi-readers may choose between ignoring questions posed to them or answering and getting insulted/hated we have a serious problem here called bias/prejudice.

two banned members during this poll is just sad, because I thought if you want to be tolerated with your preferences, you should tolerate others too (as long as they don't interfere with you).

Never heard any complaints from the yuri section, that's something they should decide/suggest.

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uncommon, sad, sweet

I still can't see any relevance between the two things. Personally I don't especially dislike yaoi, I've even read some. It's just not one of my preferences, so I don't read them. But as for yaoi fandom, generally, I do greatly dislike it. I find them to be, generally, much more prejudiced than other manga fans. That has nothing to do with liking/disliking the genre. The reason I emphasised the word "generally" is because it is, after all, only a generalisation. I do know, and like, some yaoi fangirls. They are exceptions. Or at least so it appears to me.

I, unlike shiratori, have no intention of provoking anything. I'm only trying to say your logic (i.e. disliking beetroot having nothing to do with disliking people who like it) is faulty. Another reason why that specific comparison is faulty is because liking yaoi, a literary genre, is an interest to the person who likes it and certainly has relevance to the personality of that person. If liking certain foods have similar effect, it's indistinguishable. And once more, I'm generalising, not speaking of each individual.


You're not a manga fan because of how it is perceived? And perceived like that by whom? That's like saying films are perceived badly because there are porn films. Sure, that's the image some people have. Everything in perceived in different ways by different people. But you are not a fan of something because some people have a bad perception of them due to some genre you might not even have any interest in?


So you feel insecure about yourself? Being afraid what other people think you or the things you like.


That could be said about all sexualisation in any medium.


Distasteful in your opinion. Equated? Just how negative you are saying it is by equating it to that tells us nothing unless we know how badly you view adult men's interest in yuri/loli fetish. But you seem to assume that most share that view. Adult woman's interest in yuri/loli manga is better? You seem to just be picking the fetishes that you personally think of as "distasteful". What is this tasteful fetish of yours then?


I agree, it could be questionable, sure. But where the hell did you draw that defending homosexual rights card from? Where there is any indication of yaoi fangirls being LGBT-activists, as you seem to indicate? I'm not saying there isn't. I'm saying there's no indication anywhere in apparent sight and you failed to provide any source.

In these past couple days I've seen some stupid and prejudiced posts. Yours bested them all.

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I didn't come here to start a fight, this site is a niche community and I know I have an unpopular opinion on here, but I also know that there are people who have had the same complaints. I only stated my opinion, I didn't try to push it onto any of you, so there's no need to be aggressive or rude.

It's unconvincing when you debate by putting words in my mouth, badgering, and using leading questions.

Perceived by the general public in my country. Such as how bronies carry extremely negative connotations, so some people will not watch or admit to watching mlp due to this fandom. Genres like yaoi and their fandoms give a bad image to the medium. It is prejudiced, and in a more prefect world I wouldn't have to argue this.

There is a clear distinction between porn and film, porn is not published or distributed together with films. Pornography is an entirely different product with it's own genres. Yaoi, hentai, lolicon, and other such genres make up a huge portion of genres that exist under 'Manga'.

Yes, sexualization in any medium is fetishized, I didn't feel like that needed to be stated.
It's distasteful because
A. Objectifying LGBT to stroke your libido is disrespectful and dehumanizing
B. Pedophilia is illegal.
This is not just my view, this is the view of the general, law-abiding public. I didn't think I would need to explain why fetishizing rape, homosexuality, pedophilia is wrong. I didn't think that there would be many people who would consider such actions acceptable and condone its propagation in any medium.

Please don't put words into my mouth, I never said that these fetishes are acceptable for females. No fetishes are tasteful, this is why fetishes have a negative connotation and also why I do not like how manga is perceived. I believe the medium can be used well as a storytelling and artistic medium, but is being abused by genres like yaoi to fuel fetishes. Of course there are exceptions, and intelligent, human characters can be written in such genres.

As for LGBT rights, that's something I've seen and have discussed with others outside of this niche site. I said 'when' not 'all' yaoi fangirls are LGBT enthusiasts. There's a great deal of cyberbalkanization on this site, while the real world has a diversity of interests and values, you might want to go out there and learn to be more open-minded. You shouldn't throw around words like prejudiced if you don't have a good grasp on what it actually means.

Last edited by Doormouse at 4:23 pm, Apr 26 2014

I agree to some extent with Doormouse, however, I'd like to point out that the difference between loli/rape hentai and yaoi is, that the great majority of hentai is straight-up porn and doesn't try to be anything beyond that.
Yaoi on the other hand usually tries to portray things like romance and relationships all while heavily utilizing rape, violence, abuse and S/M themes and not only trivializing them, but portraying them as something "romantic".

I have nothing against these themes used in porn, but making a moral point to justify them (as much yaoi does), is simply disgusting imo.

Coupled with a heavy dose of ignorance about real homosexual relationships and homophobia (how ironic) I think yaoi is offensive for homo- and heterosexuals alike.

That being said, what mainly draws my attention to this issue is the obnoxious behavior of fujoshis on various sites and how it is hard to avoid them. Maybe I'm a bit sensitive, but they've become somewhat of a red carpet for me.

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A good bit more for yaoi than hentai, lolicon, yuri and shoujo-ai combined. Guess we know which sex consumes the most porn.

I didn't. You were vague. My questions were meant for you to specify your intentions.


"Hentai" is pornographic manga. Porn films are pornographic films. If your country is biased on this and the manga isn't separated like films are, then it's your local problem. I've never encountered this. You seemed to have implied something else but you were being vague. That's why I asked that question. That seems to be clear not though, but maybe you make such general statements based on only how things work where you live in.


A. Porn is objectifying too and so is any sexualisation in most mainstream films nowadays. No, you don't need to state such a fact, but you're separating LGBT from this all as if it was some kind of exception.
B. So? Killing other people is illegal too, mostly. So you shouldn't watch any films or play any games that feature killing people. Most people are capable of separating reality from fiction.

No one asked why fetishising rape or pedophilia is wrong. As far as I'm aware, these topics never came up. I'm not saying homosexual fetish is right (or wrong, for that matter), I'm asking how is it any different from any other fetish, as you seem to separate it.


You're making baseless claims, I never said you said that. You were vague and I asked if it's somehow worse when it's about adult men, which you clearly implied, intentionally or otherwise.

As I said, they are tasteless is your opinion for which you don't give any basis. You clearly have an opinion about what kind of manga has serious artistic value and what kind of manga doesn't. My problem with your is that you fail to provide any insight as to why, and your comments make me doubt if there is a reason aside from personal and social bias.


And how is it wrong to write about stupid and inhumane characters? Would in your ideal world there be censors to reject any and all fiction that has a hint of obscenity, sexualisation, fetish, illegal activity or whatever else you consider to be part of your universal category or tastelessness. I'm putting words in your mouth? Or perhaps you're just incapable of stating your opinions clearly and the reasons for thinking so.


Seemingly prejudiced statements for which I allowed you to give basis and different perspective in which you failed. I never strictly claimed you were wrong. You were vague and prejudiced. Granted, that might just be because you failed to make any actual argument to support your vague views. But however that might be, you're the last person who should be talking about open-mindedness or correct wording.

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Far-off places with sweet sounding names.

Based on his responses to follow, my assumptions were 100% correct and completely relevant. He even intentionally provoked the fandom he goes so far to hate. I tried the peaceful way of reporting him, more or less to avoid a huge feedback of responses when it was originally posted but as you can see, it didn't work.

I don't know what you are talking about or what your problem with me is. My problem was SilverStorm's failed analogy. And even that was no big deal, I just corrected her a little.

You reported shiratori? Are you saying you're acting peacefully by reporting him instead of responding to his post? I've imagined "peacefully" means talking things out. Well, however that may be, you've obviously got a problem with him. Why are you taking it out on me?

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Far-off places with sweet sounding names.

Probably because I didn't insult anyone personally. I merely expressed my disgust for the yaoi fandom as a whole, in the same way as one may express his political opinion by hating on capitalists/commies/liberals/conservatives/nazis or w/e. Banning me for that would be ridiculous.

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yeah of course such a post won't be deleted. he/she didn't insult anyone, his/her personal likes or dislikes are no reason for deletion. he/she didn't use inappropriate language either so as you can see... nothing happened, for a reason. And he/she isn't a repeat offender anyway so nothing with bans, the two we had are enough already...

I for my part just wanted clarification as to where this hate comes from and he/she explained that. (@狂気: btw that question was only posed to shiratori, as he/she stated, he/she hates both, of course you can't generalize, but in his/her case it was kid of the "easy way" to link both. not to say it is the right one, but I assume you know how easily it is for people nowadays to judge people based on the stuff they like dislike/ or certain traits, sadly. And shiratori's post had that certain feel about it but I can be wrong, and looks like he/she had certain bad experiences with both).
I personally didn't have any negative experiences with yaoi fandom, even though being on this site for a while now and every day, that's the reason for my question...

though I have to admit I never read yaoi... the art style (deduced from covers) alone is something I cannot get into (those guys are supposed to be hot? really? I may not be a girl but eewww - no I don't like bishounen/jo in general. I'd very much prefer some cute or realistic characters. hm avoiding anything smutty would be another point...)

btw: I don't think he/she was provoking the fandom but trying to initiate a discussion about it? I don't think his/her goal was intentionally pissing off people... Not many people do that... I hope... and from what I've seen in this forum so far shiratori isn't such an idiot. Just the feeling that I get though...

Last edited by Lorska at 1:35 pm, Apr 27 2014

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in need of romance?
uncommon, sad, sweet

Although I'd prefer brevity, you instigated this debate with me, and I am neither fond of ignorant arguments nor leaving my own reasoning flawed.

Your questions are leading the debate away from my initial point. I hope you realize most of your arguments are ad hominems and straw men, fallacies distorting my position to make it easier to attack by:
A. Attacking my character (irrelevant to my position)
B. Quoting me out of context
C. Misrepresenting my position
You're denying the 'straw man', but missing the target, and I hate to defend silly arguments that I otherwise would not have to.

You state 'I've never encountered this', yet you turn around and accuse me of making 'general statements based on only how things work where you live in'.
I'm baffled, yes this is the case in my country, I would not speak for countries I've never lived in, I never once implied I was speaking for the entire world, in fact I stated it is my 'opinion' and perhaps the opinion of my peer group. The problem is subjective but true in my country, so it is not a relativist fallacy as you claim. Your debate seems to be trying to deny problems that exist in my country, where you've never lived or have lived for an extended period of time. This is what one would call 'prejudiced'.

A, Sexualization in most 'films' (minus porn) is neither the main plot, nor a subplot, and in films where sexualization is the plot, it's usually there to be deconstructed and establish moral standards. Sexualization being 'mainstream' does not excuse what it is, that is an appeal to popularity, being widely used does not make it any less severe. I separated LGBT from all types of sexualization because that is the issue I am discussing, refer to 'straw man'.
B. Illegal actions are most often characterized negatively in media and are shown to convey disgust/fear/hatred/tension to the audience, while 'loli'/'shota' manga exists to titillate the reader.

You asked me to explain why those fetishes are 'negative', and I don't wish to debate whether morals are objective or subjective, so let's just determine moral standard by what is common democratic law. Again I separate yaoi not because it is more severe than the others, but because that is the topic I am trying to discuss.

This argument is on a slippery slope, I do not wish to debate sexualization in all media, which is why I confined my statements to yaoi. If the argument is expanded from objectifying people in yaoi to objectifying people in porn, to film, to all media...by that point we've already strayed to far from my original intent. In example, this is similar to the debate on LGBT rights, and how some may argue if the same sex are allowed to marry, then marriage between man and animal would be legalized next. It's a slippery slope and a childish way to argue.

I agree that 'artistic value' is subjective, but I do not wish to go into that debate either, so let's agree that any series that has won or been nominated for any of the established 'manga awards' has literary or artistic value. No yaoi, hentai, loli series has ever won or been nominated. Most yaoi writers do not create a series with themes other than 'violent sex bordering on rape' in mind, and churn out series like a factory production line. There may be exceptions, but it is safe to say that the majority of these genres are not made to be more than 'porn' for readers.

I never once claimed anything was objective 'right' or 'wrong', I am only arguing for my subjective morals. Let me specify 'human' for you, they can be stupid, or cruel, or even superheroes with psychic powers, as long as they seem like real people, think like real people, face struggles like real people; fleshed out, well written and created by an author for the purpose of conveying themes. To continue with your porn example, not 'characters' created to act out a short skit that leads to nothing except sex. Sexualization, fetishishs, and illegal activities are all fine and even welcome in such stories as long as they serve a purpose in conveying the theme of the story and are not glorified activities with no value or purpose other than sexual arousal in itself. We can look to Clockwork Orange, which has all three, as a positive example. Yaoi, hentai, etc in this case is no different from porn. and from your 'straw men' statements it seems you agree that porn and sexualization and fetishes are not positive.

Since you hypocritically require me to source, here BL in the West, please feel free to educate yourself with this research paper.
I can also highlight the points from the article that support my argument if you wish, but I've wasted enough time here already. I will however clear up some 'vague' points from the previous round.

I don't feel comfortable expressing dislike for yaoi because I do support gay rights and don't want others to mistakenly claim I am homophobic. If I feared other's opinions I would be vocally and strongly against yaoi because that is what my peers expect of me.

From your defense of yaoi fangirls as non-lgbt enthusiats, you are also defending the fetishization of homosexuality by people who, in life, do not support rights for the very people they sexualize.

I am not arguing on the pretense that my position is the side which is 'politically correct', believing my argument is /true/ does not necessary mean believing it is 'absolute correct'. What is 'right' and 'wrong' in itself is debatable, but what is important in a debate is the choice of a side regardless of whether it is considered 'right' or 'wrong'. The purpose of a debate, typically, is the sway the opinion of a neutral jury in towards one side, the side which then becomes, for the time being, 'correct'. It seems the person who is focused on what is 'correct' at the moment is only you.

You seem to assume that your argument is 'right' simply because you are taking the middle ground, and I would like to inform you that the middle position between two extremes is not always correct. Your arguments are merely opinions as well, please do not imply that your opinions are any more 'right' than my own. In fact, no conclusion can be drawn from this debate as there is no set judge or jury to reach a verdict. In hindsight, I'm no longer interested in debating with a kid who thinks it is proper conduct to instigate a debate by insulting the opponent's argument as 'stupid and prejudiced'. Attacking an argument outright with the belief that you are 'correct' and assuming the counterargument has no basis or even considering the other argument less true only because proof has /yet/ to be given (referred to as 'argument to logic') is what is really 'stupid and prejudiced'.

Last edited by Doormouse at 1:45 am, Apr 28 2014

I guess that should read "If I didn't fear". Anyway, I don't really understand your reasoning. If you are in a high social position, I can see why you would refrain from making comments like this that could be misunderstood. But as a regular person (which I'm just going to assume you are) and on the internet even, why do you care? If your friends read this and misunderstand it, then just tell them what you meant and that's it. If they won't believe you, they're probably not your friends anyway.

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Hmm I can see why that is confusing, to elaborate, where I live most of the students who are aware of yaoi are intolerant of the fanbase and expect me to also despise the fanbase to the very depths of my soul. However, I am more fed up with the genre itself and manage to somewhat tolerate the fanbase, i.e. they are free to draw what the want as long as they tag nsfw and don't force their interests down my throat. Although, it still kind of ruins my mood when I see fan-art of my favorite characters, who have no canon homosexual tendencies whatsoever, engaged in /extreme/ homosexual activities (gangbangs). Just remembering some of those images..hhhHHHhhh.

As for why I even care, I guess I've developed into the 'super nerd' as in SUPER NERD WANTS TO FIGHT, and start ranting on the internet when I'm tired and tripping (all the time).

More seriously though, in the field I major and work in, it is common for the employer to research you on the net prior to hiring you. It is also common to establish a network of peers and connections online for critique and skill building/advice, and for most work to come from freelance jobs via the internet.

In the past when I have expressed my opinions on yaoi, I received various mixed messages, with some of the fanbase accusing me of being homophobic, so I've gotten pretty nervous whenever I express an opinion on controversial topics that might drive people away and cause misunderstanding on my positions. I'm used to blowing off steam by debating on debate.org anonymously now and get carried away when I'm on other forums sometimes.

Edit: Wow, after reading through my posts I think I've reached the apex of super nerd. I get a justice boner for structured debates regardless of whether I advocate the affirmative or negative side, I think I need to lie down and re-evaluate my life.

Last edited by Doormouse at 5:29 am, Apr 29 2014

They were both replies to my posts though, but perhaps so. If you don't know which gender someone is you can just say "they". It shouldn't be any mystery though, shiratori's dick is 12 inches long. You can't miss that.


So far you've yet to give a single argument to support your views. Context and your "position" have nothing to do with that. Don't use Latin if you don't know how to use it. The reasons why you think they are so is because you assume I'm only making arguments against your views. If you try to calm down and read what my posts you might notice my problem was your post's stupidity more than the seeming prejudice of your views.

You say your arguments are silly. I say you haven't made any. When one thinks a personal opinion doesn't need any basis to be universally accepted, they're a moron. When one thinks of their personal opinions as universal truths, they're even a bigger moron.

When a statement that has only regional relevance is made they are not styled as general statements. I think the problem is that you're unable to express your views in the first place. I didn't of think this at first but it seems English is not your first language? Your placement of words often makes your statements very vague and void of any meaning.

Illegal actions "convey disgust/fear/hatred/tension to the audience"? Are you talking about films in general or propaganda films? Or again of films of some specific regional area?


What has morals being objective or subjective got to do with anything? So in the end what is this moral standard that you determined? What is this common democratic law of yours? Not a single fetish you've brought out has been against "common democratic law" as far as I'm aware. This is where you bring your own subjective view up as objective. I'm putting words in you mouth again? Well perhaps you managed once again to say absolutely nothing. How does one make walls of text without any content?


Let us not. Why are you deciding what we should agree with in the first place? And why would manga that is not taken into consideration won anything?

No one wants your sources. That is not a proper was to use a source in the first place. You're like that feminist girl in the breast poll. Don't make statements that seem prejudiced until every reader has read certain seven books and thirteen blog posts to get context if it bothers you when someone questions them.

You claim I attacked your character, assume my own opinions to be correct, defend yaoi fangirls and say your views are by default wrong.

I didn't tell you my own view on the subject, what are you talking about? "it seems you agree that porn and sexualization and fetishes are not positive" is an assumption (one of many) and not entirely true.

I never once defended yaoi fangirls.

You made seemingly prejudiced statements without any arguments to support your views. From the very first I responded to you I didn't disregard your view, I tried to get you to give any supporting arguments. And I'm certainly not taking any middle ground.

If you wish to make moral statements then perhaps you should not write them in such a prejudiced tone without giving any basis for you views. If you're not interested in taking a broader view into consideration then perhaps you should be so vague it leads to such questions.

Any hypocrisy, prejudice, stupidity or lack of argument skills is somewhere else than on my end.

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