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Drowning in Manga
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12:49 am, Nov 17 2014
Posts: 133


Guys let's be honest, when was the last time you thought an anime character looked like a real person? Never? Yeah, that's what I thought the 50+ year old characters sometimes look like they're barely older than 20 and the unrealistic proportions ect.

They're not real and if we're speaking from a child safety standpoint its safer that such things exist. When porn is banned/not allowed rape and sexual assault in a country rises, so shouldn't there be a similar correlation for stuff like loli and shota?

From my point of view even if I did find it offensive which I don't I wouldn't want the ban because I'd bet it would open up loopholes to ban loli and shota Characters from non hentai media and then maybe eventually panty shots of people under 18 and then maybe no kissing between characters under 18, ect. Censorship is a slippery slope.

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1:37 am, Nov 17 2014
Posts: 229


Cloudsora, I couldn't have said it better.

I'm retired, but over the last few years I've come to like manga of all kinds. I worry about its fate in the US, though. I remember in the '50s and '60s how far censorship of all media reached. Of course, there was no manga here then at all, but almost any kind of entertainment publication that was the least bit sexy would automatically be rejected by publishers at the outset, and anything that survived publisher self-censorship would get seized by the post office, as people tried to buy stuff through the mail.

Part of the fun of manga is that the makers of it often put slightly transgressive elements in stories that are otherwise routine. Kodomo no Jikan is an example that's relevant to this subject, but there are many other types of slightly titillating manga. There is no actual sex in Kodomo, but I believe it's an example of a very good manga that will be ripe for censorship anyway, if censorship ever gets going strong in the USA again.

Censorship is absolutely a slippery slope!

Post #656454
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9:55 am, Nov 17 2014
Posts: 71


no/no because I'm a fan of straight shota no and I don't see it wrong
and its just a fiction, a real person don't look like manga at all.

Last edited by dhyneee at 2:57 am, Nov 18

Post #656500 - Reply to (#656440) by Hell_Clues
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8:15 am, Nov 18 2014
Posts: 297


Quote from Hell_Clues
Well personally I'm against other countries, especially the american states, telling people what to do, how to be, or to be more like them. It's beyond disgusting and arrogant. White countries in particular tend to still be arrogant as hell and somehow that flies over their heads. Their looking down on the world, and being narrow minded while thinking otherwise.

Unless it's some place like North Korea or Qatar. These issues involve other people being mistreated, or potentially threatening them.

So...
You're against others deciding that they should tell countries what to do ...except when you happen to agree with them?

The people who pressured Japan over child porn, did so due to concerns that the issue involved other people being mistreated, or potentially threatening them, which is exactly the reason that you declared to be valid, in the case of North Korea and Qatar.
...and when it comes to genuine child porn, they are quite correct.

Any pressure on Japan to ban fictional child porn, however, would be disgusting, but that would be for the reasons we've stated that such a ban would be wrong.
Not due to any notion that countries should never pressure other countries.
That is simply ridiculous.
You might as well say that no person should ever pressure/argue/persuade anyone else.

That you target "white" countries, for your scorn, is especially disturbing.

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Sam the Eagle
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9:15 am, Nov 18 2014
Posts: 351


I said no no. I haven't read more than a couple of pages of this topic, but most people seem to agree...if you ban one manga topic, then where do you stop? Violence is illegal, so let's get rid of that. Language is offensive, so we don't need that. That chef is sharpening his knives...that could be seen as a weapon by the reader, so let's stop writing about cooking. It just keeps going. No martial arts manga, historical topics are extremely limited without war. Quite a few sports can seem violent to people. Slap stick comedy is out. Romance manga are limited as well...no more high school smut etc.

Start there and pretty soon you are down to two or three tennis stories and that manga about Japanese vs. Roman baths (or did that one have male nudity?...can't remember).

The one thing that has surprised me recently was the violence ban in webtoons. I thought that the bans would just keep coming up, but so far, it seems that extreme violence was the only target (knock on wood).

Post #656511
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10:36 am, Nov 18 2014
Posts: 101


It's unbelievable, looking at the sheer number of people who're into this sh*t/unconcerned. All you effing hypocrites and dirtbags screaming about freedom and censorship. It must be a guilty pleasure for you guys and you must feel quite sure of yourselves that you'll never be interested in all this shit in RL. What about freedom FROM this sh*t to grow up right and not warped?What if it serves as a pastime for an actual child molester? And to the stupid f**k who just claimed that there is a correlation between banning pornos and sex crimes- you should be given a standing ovation. Just stay in whatever ignorant sh*thole you're in. It's my BELIEF (yes, i'm not claiming it to be a fact by quoting some idiotic study but mind you, there are plenty) that easy access to pornos has led to perversions in sexuality.

I'm not such an idiot to believe that banning such stuff would have any kind of effect on the actual crime rates, but that does not mean it should be allowed to exist. We all know that the US has death penalty, but it has not caused any fall in crime rates. It would be stupid to say that oh look, the states WITH death penalty have HIGHER murder rates so remove death penalty but, hey, maybe they had even higher rates originally, OR it's not as high as IT WOULD HAVE been without the penalty.

I digress. Humanity has to draw a line somewhere. As a victim of child molestation, I abhor anything that seeks to sexualise OR even promote romance with children. Maybe I am biased. BUT please, i implore you people to not confuse freedom with anarchy. You can only truly enjoy freedom when you have discipline. Please don't harp on about how i'm advocating authoritarianism because I am not. There are better ways of expressing yourself than reading/producing lolis and shotas. To the idiots who're saying that lets ban pornos and gore next- remember, we have to draw a line. FOR ME, it's when we start sexualising children or glorifying any sex-related crime. [Might I point out, BERSERK does NOT glorify child molestation, it points out how the character dealt with the trauma]

Peace.

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Seinen is RIGHT
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1:02 pm, Nov 18 2014
Posts: 2082


Yep. Berserk is one of the most forward looking mangas of all time(the movies tough mishandle all the rape related subplots and nearly everything else). Umino Chica is even a story consultant. Peace to you too ElanorR i occasionally wonder too with whom i share my hobby cry. I am still against a ban because the police have enough on their hands already as mentioned multiple times.

I don´t know if this is the right forum to do this but i recently listened to a Kevin Smith podcast about child prostitution/trafficking in America where he had a 3 hour discussion with a friend and victim of rape at a young age. Highly enlightening stuff and the statistics mentioned are horrifying. See how you will like your loli/shota then.
http://smodcast.com/episodes/jamie-walton-funding-the-wayne-fo undation/

Last edited by residentgrigo at 1:31 pm, Nov 18

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Post #656517 - Reply to (#656511) by ElanorR
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2:31 pm, Nov 18 2014
Posts: 497


Quote from ElanorR
It's unbelievable, looking at the sheer number of people who're into this sh*t/unconcerned.


Wow... there are so many things wrong with this post that I don't even know where to begin (I do agree with some individual parts of this though)...

Oh, yes. I'm sorry for your hardship and hope that a) the person(s) responsible have been caught and punished in accordance to the law b) you have recovered from your ordeal.

Having said that...

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It must be a guilty pleasure for you guys and you must feel quite sure of yourselves that you'll never be interested in all this shit in RL.


No, I don't feel guilty about it. Drawings cannot be harmed in any way or form that would make a difference in this particular discussion. No harm, no foul = no quilt.

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What about freedom FROM this sh*t to grow up right and not warped?


Parental supervision? A childs guardians are responsible for his/her exposure to potentially harmful material. I don't think anyone here is suggesting that any of this kind of material should be accessed by children.

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What if it serves as a pastime for an actual child molester?


What if Sesame Street serves as a pastime for an actual child molester? What if documentaries do? Or the Bold and the Beautiful? How about Pokemon? What if (s)he is a sport fan? How about books on physics and chemistry?

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I'm not such an idiot to believe that banning such stuff would have any kind of effect on the actual crime rates, but that does not mean it should be allowed to exist.


So we are back to "I hate it and thus it should not (be allowed) exist." I believe this point has been addressed in this topic quite a few times.

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It's my BELIEF (yes, i'm not claiming it to be a fact by quoting some idiotic study but mind you, there are plenty) that easy access to pornos has led to perversions in sexuality


And do you automatically combine sexual deviancy or perversions to sex crimes? Have you ever considered that there are ways to indulge in "questionable" tastes in a wholesome manner?

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You can only truly enjoy freedom when you have discipline. There are better ways of expressing yourself than reading/producing lolis and shotas.


What you are promoting is not discipline or even remotely related to discipline. What you are promoting is akin to a though crime. That people should not be allowed to indulge in hypothetical in scenarios put on paper, in their own privacy. The subject matter is of no relevance.



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Post #656520
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3:48 pm, Nov 18 2014
Posts: 42


I when with "Don't care". I am not really into that kind of material, so it doesn't really affect me.

Still, I do think that giving people with those likings a way to vent themselves is actually not a bad thing. I am of the people that believe that violent video games actually help people that have violent impulses. Still, before this "perverted" materials, there was still plenty of bad stuff happening, and after it there will still be.

Post #656525 - Reply to (#656517) by Baalzebup
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4:40 pm, Nov 18 2014
Posts: 101


Quote from Baalzebup
Parental supervision? A childs guardians are responsible for his/her exposure to potentially harmful material. I don't think anyone here is suggesting that any of this kind of material should be accessed by children.

No matter how hard the parents try, there are times when the child is not under their supervision.

Quote
And do you automatically combine sexual deviancy or perversions to sex crimes? Have you ever considered that there are ways to indulge in "questionable" tastes in a wholesome manner?

I only have problems with perversions that violate other people’s rights. Your rights end where another’s begin. Get willing and able participants and do your thing.

Quote
What if Sesame Street serves as a pastime for an actual child molester? What if documentaries do? Or the Bold and the Beautiful? How about Pokemon? What if (s)he is a sport fan? How about books on physics and chemistry?

Pokemon and physics don’t mentally or physically violate someone against their will.

Quote from Baalzebup
What you are promoting is not discipline or even remotely related to discipline. What you are promoting is akin to a though crime. That people should not be allowed to indulge in hypothetical in scenarios put on paper, in their own privacy. The subject matter is of no relevance.

I’m glad you touched upon this actually. We’re organisms that have been bestowed a consciousness. Ergo, any action is usually always preceded by thought. Do you really think a rapist hasn’t imagined raping before he actually does it? I daresay he has. The same is true for pedophiles. I’m sure they had indulged in their fantasy before enacting it. Not all get the guts to, i’m guessing. But seeing how vulnerable kids are, it probably makes their job easier. A candy there, some affection here.
How do we stop such ‘thought crimes’, before they get turned to actions? That’s tricky. But thankfully, this is the internet age. While in your mind, thoughts are not observable, your actions on the internet however, are very much so. Why not use them as proxy? I often wondered how mammoth the task must be- finding every abuser, child or not. There are so many crimes that go unreported. So many where there isn’t enough physical evidence. Is that a fault of our investigating authorities? Not always so. Why must we presume that the law will take its course, when more often than not, it doesn’t? “The police are overburdened already”. @residentgrigo, I think this would make their task much easier actually.[ very illuminating podcast btw]
Again, I reiterate, these are my personal thoughts and as you can see, nowhere near political correctness. But thank you, for pointing out the gaping flaws in my thought-process and arguments. It definitely made me see my own thoughts in a different light.

Last edited by ElanorR at 4:46 pm, Nov 18

Post #656536 - Reply to (#656516) by residentgrigo
Member

6:34 pm, Nov 18 2014
Posts: 90


The argument is down to a fictional vs real life argument whether it is rape or shota/loli. It's common on yaoi series all the time. All these anonymous posts like "rape is horrible. Why do we tolerate it in a story?" No yaoi readers actually think rape or shota/loli is good but when it is done in a fictional paper setting, there's no reason to freak out about it. Rape, on minors or adults, and underage sex were going on well before comic books romanticized it.

And if someone can't tell the difference between real life and fiction, there are plenty of other sources they can get it from (ex: people, video games, newspaper, online, etc...).

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Gray_H00D
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6:40 pm, Nov 18 2014
Posts: 417


Quote from bnad
Japan, as one of the most perverted county in the world, has proven itself by having one of the world lowest number in sex crime (and one of the lowest birth rate surprise surprise). It's probably because of the easy access to pornography of any kind, hence providing the means, to relief themselves just by "that". Since it's only fictionalized character, you could argue it's kind of the necessary evil.

Quote from Cthylla
Japan is actually one of the most conservative nations so that's part of all that. They can have super perverted stuff but it doesn't effect them so much because they value family and hard work and honor above all else.

Quote from residentgrigo
Japan really is one of the most conservative first world countries. Porn needs to be censored, pretty much nothing objectionable on daytime tv or even at night, prostitution is illegal, homosexuality is not persecuted but tends to be not acknowledged and drugs and guns are a not issue.
They just tend to ignore a LOT but restriction guidelines have become stricter in all sorts of places(especially videogames) in the last years. Be highly productive and get your freak on behind closed doors is their motto. A used pantys machine in the street is more indicative of the neighborhood it is placed and not of their society as a whole.


Look...there are still many Smart People Exists...Who do post their views with Logic after doing their Homework...Unlike some People busy arguing and having Cat Fights Over Nothing !!

Last edited by MinatoAce at 6:47 pm, Nov 18

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Post #656539 - Reply to (#656525) by ElanorR
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6:56 pm, Nov 18 2014
Posts: 497


Quote from ElanorR
We’re organisms that have been bestowed a consciousness. Ergo, any action is usually always preceded by thought. Do you really think a rapist hasn’t imagined raping before he actually does it?


This is a given. Every crime of that nature is premeditated so some extent. But the opposite is not true. Not every figment and indulgence in imagination is put to action and it would be monstrous and inhuman to judge people based on those alone.

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No matter how hard the parents try, there are times when the child is not under their supervision.


I was actually going for a more broad concept of parental responsibility. See post Post #656421 by kitty1826x, in this very topic, for a good example of this.

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While in your mind, thoughts are not observable, your actions on the internet however, are very much so. Why not use them as proxy?


Have you seen Minority report? Do you think that kind of system would be a good thing? Because what you are suggesting goes even beyond that.

I mean, even now, the police track and trace criminals trafficing in actual child porn and use their own networks of contacts to catch them. This is what they should be doing and every criminal caught like this get what they deserve. But labelling and tracking people based on their taste in comics? Not every pedophile and/or Erebophile acts on their urges and you would limit their freedoms and/or punish them for just... existing?

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Pokemon and physics don’t mentally or physically violate someone against their will.


Nor does, by and itself, Hentai of any flavor. What are you trying to say here? Because I'm pretty sure I can find a few people who have committed sex crimes of monstrous proportions and have studied physics AND played Pokemon. Your argument was, after all, that sex criminals might be reading loli/shota for entertainment.... You see, non-criminals can enjoy things that criminals enjoy and vice-verca.

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I only have problems with perversions that violate other people’s rights. Your rights end where another’s begin. Get willing and able participants and do your thing.


Yet you promote outlawing a perversion / particular taste that violates absolutely no-ones rights? Seeing as comics don't, by default, violate any rights whatsoever. The creative process of loli/shota material does not necessitate a victim, nor does reading it.

Really, this does not paint a picture that is merely "not politically correct." (I despise political correctness for its own sake). This is a good headstart to a world where you have a chip in your brain that keeps you from thinking unwanted thoughts, whatever they may be in relation to those who keep the leash.

Last edited by Baalzebup at 9:28 pm, Nov 18

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Post #656540
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7:39 pm, Nov 18 2014
Posts: 31


To bad I cant paint a Picture where I kill Hitler, then WW2 would never had happened. Im sure!!!
Somebody in the US drew a Picture of shooting the president and now he is in jail for attempted murder! His sentence is ofc for Life. We cant have bad guys running around *rolls Eyes*

I have no preferences for loli or shota but a compairing a painted Picture to real Child abuse makes you a true idiot.

Now lets say you have your way and it becomes illegal just like you want. Then we need to ofc split police resources between capturing those who have loli/shota pictures and capturing real Child abusers. Because of this more real Child abusers can continue undisturbed because the police are busy making warrants and arrests for painted pictures that have no victim. ffs Wake up!







Post #656545 - Reply to (#656511) by ElanorR
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9:32 pm, Nov 18 2014
Posts: 297


Quote from ElanorR
What about freedom FROM this sh*t to grow up right and not warped?

You may not be aware of this, but hentai isn't made for kids.

Also, there is this thing that you may not have heard of. It's called parenting.
It's the reason why toddlers haven't seen porn, and why 7 year-olds generally haven't seen movies like "A Serbian Film", "Hostel" or "Cannibal Holocaust".
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What if it serves as a pastime for an actual child molester?

That would be great!
Let him/her enjoy some loli/shota hentai ...rather than harming any real children.
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And to the stupid f**k who just claimed that there is a correlation between banning pornos and sex crimes- you should be given a standing ovation.

It may be controversial, but on balance, the studies do seem to support the notion.
In any case, there is no evidence that porn increases sex crime.
Quote
It's my BELIEF (yes, i'm not claiming it to be a fact by quoting some idiotic study but mind you, there are plenty) that easy access to pornos has led to perversions in sexuality.

Show me a study that shows that sex crime (rather than what you, subjectively, consider "perverse") increases, due to porn.
Show me that child molestation increases due to fictional child porn.

As they say: "Put up or shut up". "If you can't show it, you don't know it".
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I'm not such an idiot to believe that banning such stuff would have any kind of effect on the actual crime rates

So...
You are saying that it is a harmless thing and that it doesn't hurt anyone.
That it is a completely victimless crime.
...but you still want it to be illegal.
In what possible way, does that make any sense?
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Humanity has to draw a line somewhere.

Yes.
If it is significantly harmful, it should be illegal.
If it is not harmful, in any way, then there is no reason to ban it.
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Maybe I am biased.

Yes.
You are completely blinded to reason, by strong emotion.
Understandably so, certainly, but you are being irrational nevertheless.
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[Might I point out, BERSERK does NOT glorify child molestation, it points out how the character dealt with the trauma]

It still contains fictional child porn. It contains both loli and shota (including rape thereof), as well as "normal" adult rape.
Hence your "Yes" would mean that it would be banned ...along with the bible and the koran, and a mountain-load of other works, that people generally consider to be okay, or even praiseworthy.

Furthermore, a ban on fictional child porn would mean that the already overburdened child porn departments of the police, would have to waste their time and resources on prosecuting people who haven't done anything to harm anyone.
...thus meaning that real child molesters don't get as much, if any, attention.
In essence, you want child molesters to be safer from the police.
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No matter how hard the parents try, there are times when the child is not under their supervision.

So we should get rid of everything that we wouldn't want an infant to see, then?
Violence in movies? Gone.
Porn? Gone.
Romance novels? Gone.
Sports? Gone. (they are too violent)
Having sex (in real life, not in media)? Gone. A child might stumble in, after all. Many have.
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I only have problems with perversions that violate other people’s rights. Your rights end where another’s begin. Get willing and able participants and do your thing.

That is a lie! A clear and blatant lie!

You don't believe that.
You want to ban fictional child porn, which doesn't violate anyone's rights, in any way (as, indeed, you have yourself admitted!)
...or are you saying that a few lines on a piece of paper, should be given rights?
That a few bits of graphite/ink/pixels needs to give informed consent?
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Pokemon and physics don’t mentally or physically violate someone against their will.

Nor does loli/shota hentai.
Quote
I’m glad you touched upon this actually. We’re organisms that have been bestowed a consciousness. Ergo, any action is usually always preceded by thought. Do you really think a rapist hasn’t imagined raping before he actually does it? I daresay he has. The same is true for pedophiles. I’m sure they had indulged in their fantasy before enacting it. Not all get the guts to, i’m guessing.

Do you know how many have fantasized about killing someone?
Pretty much everyone.
Does this mean that those people are likely to kill someone?
That they would even want to kill someone?
No.

How many people enjoy watching/reading media, that involves murder?
Pretty much everyone.
Does this mean that those people are likely to kill someone?
That they would even want to kill someone?
Does this make them any more likely to kill, or to want to kill?
No.

I suggest you read 1984.

Your comments are far more disgusting than the sickest loli/shota manga/anime ever made.

Last edited by zarlan at 9:37 pm, Nov 18

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