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As Japanese, curious about people doing scanlation and reading them

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Post #673817
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2:43 pm, Nov 18 2015
Posts: 5


>NightSwan
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"First Generation: The Classical Era, i. The land before time"...!?
It sounds like fun. I'll read them on the weekend, otherwise I would get lack of sleep : ).

>NightSwan
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Besides, it's the internet, where everything is very easily accessible.

>crazyboutcute
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Agreed with NightSwan here. It's the Internet, so it's pretty much anything goes -- with scanlations, videos, literature, etc. It's the parents' responsibility to monitor what their kids are accessing online.

Yes indeed, it is accessibility I'm worrying about.
As for manga, I learnt naturally where I could get titles for girls and my favorites (and where have to avoid) by distinguishing comic series' name (like Hana to yume comics, Margaret comics etc.), its color and font style of each publisher on book jacket at real book store, increased knowledge about genre, authors and publishers, then extended the skill to online book store and fansite.

On the other hand everyone can get and read everything by a click without any knowledge and streetwise in a scanlation website. It feels like driving a car without driver's licence on a freeway to me.

>-shiratori-
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Also, I agree with you that pornographic comics should not be displayed next to family-friendly ones, but unfortunately many people here think that's okay (in real life as well: many comic stores in the West are small, so they often put childrens' comics next to adult comics).

I'm glad you are sharing the same view with me.

By the way, the line ''こ...ここが勝負 の分かれ目です っ'' in your avatar image always make me smile when I see her...it sounds so funny : ).

>-shiratori-
>cecropiamoth
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The bottom line is: I don't like Western culture, so by spreading Japanese culture (through scanlation) I feel like I'm making the world around me a little bit better.

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I agree with every word quoted above, and that's why I, at age 67, read manga.

I think we seek things what we don't have or see nearby. I frequently utter “kawaii” and like cute things in Japanese culture, but I love non-cute things (sorry!) in Western culture too.

For example, I'm a big fun of watching major sports in USA on TV. Game of NFL or NBA can't possibly be cute, but I admire their power/speed/technique that Japanese player would never reach. And watching their play make me feel better because of its impossibility. Maybe people need something beyond everyday life. In the sense, I can clearly understand your (-shiratori-'s) motivation as scanlator.

>cecropiamoth
Quote
(Plus I admire Japanese culture, and I think it can be understood very well through its main popular fiction form, manga.

Sadly, Japanese culture has also its own fault like all other culture, but I'm very happy knowing that you enjoy reading manga : ).


>hahhah42
I would never know those artists if I didn't ask the question in this site. Thank you : ).

>cmertb
Thank you for your advise. I definitely need some time for research, there is so much information in the forum : ).

>residentgrigo
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The world of scanlation was never just a phenomenon relegated to manga. I read tons of European comics that were scanlated by fans in the same way manga are too but these mostly live on dedicated forums and not on online readers. (License holders would murder them if they did that on a big scale as the west is way more up to date with digital rights matters.) US comics also get scanlated into all sorts of languages.

It seems like people having license in Europe is much cleverer than one in Japan and other countries. Now I learned that scanlation is everywhere and even from European and American comics. Maybe its all a matter of degree.

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>MaiNina
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Kanji in itself is very complex and needs more mastering than hiragana and katakana, as you yourself probably know too, so various applications and scripts are used to help translate kanji without any furigana.

"various applications and scripts", those are new to me : ). If result were good enough, it would help translators a lot. I like ambiguity and variety in written Japanese with kanji, but come to think of its complexity, using Japanese in manga (many overseas people wanting to read) seems terrible joke or something...

Quote
Which also shows that a vast majority of translators in the scanlation world are not actually Japanese, but just manga fans who learned the language by themselves or in school.

That solved my question about "fried ginger" incident: a character's line in a manga "Wanna eat a fried ginger’s box for lunch".

When I read it, I wondered what he meant for a little while; "Tempura of ginger? Stir-fry ginger? Who else would eat such thing as side dish of lunch box?". As you probably noticed, actually, it is a lunch box of "shogayaki" : ).

(If you literally translate "shogayaki", it would be "fried ginger". But its essence is pork (usually not other meat) sautéed (fried) with ginger. Perhaps "fried pork" was better translation if you felt "pork fried with ginger" is too long.)
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As there is an increasing demand for faster releases of manga, more people give up on waiting and sit down and learn the language themselves in order to translate the chapters and release them to the public. Well, due to the focus on speed a lot more than on the quality, future and wannabe translators focus on mastering the basics of Japanese language, as that pretty much helps them get through the chapters without the need to focus on kanji.

What you said has made me think about various things.
As for speed and quality, it seems that everything would depend on translator's conscience.

If translators can't take much time for translating, how about leaving the original word (they were not sure about) in alphabet without translating? Reader demanding speed wouldn't care about quality, people having interest in the meaning could look up the word online themselves. This could only apply vocabulary, but maybe save some time for them.

Even though I hope translators of manga have at least basic knowledge of the culture in original language or try to make an effort to research (google) the meaning of a word.



Last edited by amenoumi0340 at 6:13 am, Nov 21

Post #674122 - Reply to (#673817) by amenoumi0340
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Animalistic
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7:43 pm, Nov 26 2015
Posts: 55


Quote from amenoumi0340
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>MaiNina
Quote
Kanji in itself is very complex and needs more mastering than hiragana and katakana, as you yourself probably know too, so various applications and scripts are used to help translate kanji without any furigana.

"various applications and scripts", those are new to me : ). If result were good enough, it would help translators a lot. I like ambiguity and variety in written Japanese with kanji, but come to think of its complexity, using Japanese in manga (many overseas people wanting to read) seems terrible joke or something...


Yes, even to this day as I go around I find lots of those applications. The only one I actually tried using myself, is Capture2Text. It proved to be useful from time to time, mostly for distinguishing Chinese characters from Japanese.
Author's notes, for example, can be a real challenge if you're not used to written Japanese, so people often skip translating those if they're not really familiar with the language, the written style of it, or because it's not related directly to the main story.

Quote
Quote
Which also shows that a vast majority of translators in the scanlation world are not actually Japanese, but just manga fans who learned the language by themselves or in school.

That solved my question about "fried ginger" incident: a character's line in a manga "Wanna eat a fried ginger’s box for lunch".

When I read it, I wondered what he meant for a little while; "Tempura of ginger? Stir-fry ginger? Who else would eat such thing as side dish of lunch box?". As you probably noticed, actually, it is a lunch box of "shogayaki" : ).

(If you literally translate "shogayaki", it would be "fried ginger". But its essence is pork (usually not other meat) sautéed (fried) with ginger. Perhaps "fried pork" was better translation if you felt "pork fried with ginger" is too long.)

Oh, if you end up reading more manga, you will very frequently find some ridiculous translations, but yes, it all goes back to the translator, and what they seem fit for the chapter. Proofreader and quality checker also have the ability to change the translation or fix it somehow, if they see that something doesn't make sense or they have their own personal preference for translating some things.

Quote
Quote
As there is an increasing demand for faster releases of manga, more people give up on waiting and sit down and learn the language themselves in order to translate the chapters and release them to the public. Well, due to the focus on speed a lot more than on the quality, future and wannabe translators focus on mastering the basics of Japanese language, as that pretty much helps them get through the chapters without the need to focus on kanji.

What you said has made me think about various things.
As for speed and quality, it seems that everything would depend on translator's conscience.

If translators can't take much time for translating, how about leaving the original word (they were not sure about) in alphabet without translating? Reader demanding speed wouldn't care about quality, people having interest in the meaning could look up the word online themselves. This could only apply vocabulary, but maybe save some time for them.

Even though I hope translators of manga have at least basic knowledge of the culture in original language or try to make an effort to research (google) the meaning of a word.

Now, how someone translates really varies from group to group, from translator to translator, from quality checker to quality checker. In some mangas you will find literal and very direct translation (i.e. "fried ginger" reference), because they believe translating everything in English is the best way, while in some other mangas you will find people leaving the romanized wording and then making a note underneath the panel explaining what it means or directing some people where to find more information. There are also some groups that leave the romanized wording and then at the end of the chapter give detailed explanations of all the unknown words.
A very frequent romanized wording and accepted by almost all groups would be "sensei", "senpai", or "kouhai". The suffixes, -san, -kun, -chi, -chan, and others are also very widely used and not erased. There are some few others
I've seen translators that would go research a lot on how to translate something very small, to translators who just wing it without even knowing the basics, and only focus on the general meaning of the whole story.
Since everyone works differently and have different preferences, you have all these various groups going around, instead of just one huge scanlation group that does everything.

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Post #674124
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Mad With a Hat
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8:39 pm, Nov 26 2015
Posts: 4764


As for the quality of translation, like MaiNina said, it depends on the team.
It also depends on the target demographic. For example, manga that's targeted towards younger audiences and is popular, often attracts people who want to just get it out there and don't mind "guesslating", as in, just going with their best guess and hoping for the best.
Translations tend to get worse when they're re-translated from Chinese (for example) by people with poor English. So you end up with stuff that just doesn't make sense, like "fried ginger" or "he suicided".

I think that in general, you can expect better translations for more adult oriented works (seinen/josei), mostly because the people who actually want to do these are older, and thus more likely to be more experienced with the culture and language.

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Post #674127
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11:30 pm, Nov 26 2015
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I think that in general, you can expect better translations for more adult oriented works (seinen/josei), mostly because the people who actually want to do these are older, and thus more likely to be more experienced with the culture and language.


This has been my experience. I've also heard it said that seinen manga don't get translated as much as the other kinds because the advanced language (all kanji?) they use is often beyond the translation ability of many scanlators.

I'm sad about that, because I love seinen most. The other day I was mourning the death of the Jmanga site several years ago. I read several seinen manga on there that I never hope to see scanlated, for that reason, and also because some seinen manga can't make it past American self-censors.


Post #674129 - Reply to (#674127) by cecropiamoth
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Seinen is RIGHT
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11:59 pm, Nov 26 2015
Posts: 2108


Quote
and also because some seinen manga can't make it past American self-censors.
.
Please start listing all these "consored" official releases of Seinen manga during this decade in the US. I am all ears! I wonder how manga you can name that don´t fall under child pornography laws and Lolita was still in print the last time i checked.

(US and EU versions of manga have a history of digitally reinserting genitalia into adult targeted series.)


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Post #674161 - Reply to (#674127) by cecropiamoth
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Mad With a Hat
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8:22 pm, Nov 27 2015
Posts: 4764


Quote from cecropiamoth
This has been my experience. I've also heard it said that seinen manga don't get translated as much as the other kinds because the advanced language (all kanji?) they use is often beyond the translation ability of many scanlators.

I'm sad about that, because I love seinen most. The other day I wa ...


Yes, I'm told it's much easier to translate manga with furigana (which shoujo has more often than not), and obviously if it's targeted at younger audiences, it probably has fewer complicated/obscure kanji.
Naturally, it all depends on the story/author.

Quote from residentgrigo
Please start listing all these "consored" official releases of Seinen manga during this decade in the US. I am all ears! I wonder how manga you can name that don´t fall under child pornography laws and Lolita was still in print the last time i checked.

(US and EU versions of manga have a history of digitally reinserting genitalia into adult targeted series.)


Isn't it true though, that controversial manga such as Kodomo no Jikan, for example, is very unlikely to be picked up by American publishers?
It's not as much about the nudity itself, but the subject matter that leads to it.

And while Lolita remains published, it's considered a classic.
It wasn't always the case for many controversial works like Lady Chatterley's Lover, Allen Ginsberg's poems, etc'. Those aren't recent, sure, but I don't think manga is there just yet. It's also a much more visual medium (one that I assume many people consider to be aimed at children/adolescents), so it's easier to claim that any nudity, violence and sex are too gratuitous and unfit for younger people.
Such manga might not be censored upon arrival, but it just doesn't seem to arrive there at all.

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Post #674165
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Seinen is RIGHT
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10:33 pm, Nov 27 2015
Posts: 2108


My one condition was the avoidance of manga that would be deemed child pornography but you immediately fell into my trap bigrazz . Why?
Good old Lost Girls by Mr. Watchmen himself (and his wife) is currently in print in America and is often a topic among books that need to be pulled form libraries yet it usually isn´t. I further reread it today and it is 11/10 explicit yet it managed to get a cameo on the Simpsons and the Simpsons film also showed Bart's penis with a PG-13 attached.
That comic could never be published in Japan as it is and a hypothetical publisher could face prison time if they did due to the genitalia, the bestiality gang bangs and so on.
(It´s also the gayest comic ever and a commentary on WW I.)

Kodomo no Jikan though never managed to get an uncensored version inside of Japan itself (which is censorship) and licensed loli/shota manga or OVAs exist and continue to come out. Look up the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund and all that...
None further forbid Seven Seas Entertainment to bring out Nymphet (Vladimir Nabokov is rotating in his grave after that namedrop) and they would have faced controversy and even retailers blackout (which is withholding of service and nothing else) but none of that fits the definition of "censorship". SSE instead chickened out as the projected sales wouldn´t have been worth the hassle. End of story.
Both forms of Seikon no Qwaser, parts of Queens Blade or even Berserk have way more explicit situations with underage characters/outright rape but all managed to come out in the US with zero censorship eek . South Park even aired this episode (it´s about Yaoi so you will love it Mrs.Swan) on regular TV without problems yet it was the definition of child pr0n and so much more. It´s not even their craziest episode and the game allowed you to performed abortions and had anal child rape mini games. On the 360 and PS3 no less!
Don´t even get me started on GTA V that got a big fat Z in Japan to then be consored to hell and back to name a few examples in different media.
Freedom of speech my ass and none of that could happen in Germany but i digress.

Japan is currently undergoing an alarming censorship craze that has high profile creators and even me worried and i mention some of that here. They don´t even have legal protection for satire and parody! The Japanese publishing world or film/games industry lastly just don´t have the same amount of freedom the US or the EU have but please don´t listen to me and my silly little logic and research. Where is the fun in that after all?
What i would love to see though is the Japanese equivalent of Charlie Hebdo.
(The novel Lolita is a 9,5/10 and one of the most read/acclaimed novels of the 20th century and i would also love to see a 1 to 1 Japanese equivalent if possible.)

@amenoumi0340: Sorry for derailing your thread but we may learn something in the end.

I forgot: This is how real comic censorship in the US looks like but that was 13 years ago and DC was under a different (and somewhat superior) management back them.
This week´s DK III further showed one of Wonder Woman breasts and let´s not forget DC´s Vertigo imprint so such censorship could never happen in 2015. It was even weird back then and 9/11 related on top. Marvel is somewhat more complicated (they have a smoking ban for example) but they also have MAX and Icon. Image, who is the last of the big 3, also never censores anything. That goes triple for Avatar Press and co.

Last edited by residentgrigo at 9:59 pm, Jan 31

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Post #674173
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5:51 am, Nov 28 2015
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The topic has changed from scanlation to censorship... eek ?

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@amenoumi0340: Sorry for derailing your thread but we may learn something in the end.

I think that you have deep knowledge and informed opinion on the subject : ).

How about making your own thread and discussing the topic with people sharing same interest? (I could learn many things there.)

I'm really interested in the matter and other people's reply to your opinion, but in another thread (after all, this thread is about scanlation).

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>MaiNina
Quote
Now, how someone translates really varies from group to group, from translator to translator, from quality checker to quality checker. In some mangas you will find literal and very direct translation (i.e. "fried ginger" reference), because they believe translating everything in English is the best way, while in some other mangas you will find people leaving the romanized wording and then making a note underneath the panel explaining what it means or directing some people where to find more information. There are also some groups that leave the romanized wording and then at the end of the chapter give detailed explanations of all the unknown words.

It's really interesting there are various translators and methods of translation. Note and comment under the panel seem to be good way : ).

As for the "fried ginger", I just thought at the moment, everyone could ''しょうが焼き '' or ''生姜焼き'' put in Google translation (= first answer would be ''pork fried with ginger''). That would not take so much time if you could extract and type the words. (By the way, are you typing Japanese on a keyboard or inputing by handwriting --like Google translation has in the input box--?)

Quote
A very frequent romanized wording and accepted by almost all groups would be "sensei", "senpai", or "kouhai". The suffixes, -san, -kun, -chi, -chan, and others are also very widely used and not erased.

>"The suffixes, -san, -kun, -chi, -chan, and others":
That reminds me of my experience from a manga in English. Actually it was rather a problem of honorific language though.

Reading the manga I could not understand who talk to whom many times. The author omitted the indicators from balloons so frequently, therefore many conversation seems to be riddles in English.

It's a really frustration, then, I bought the original in Japanese and understood the reason of difficulty.

The characters were using/not using honorific language very strictly. When I read the original, I had no trouble with understanding who talk to whom. I see why the author didn't feel need to draw indicator of balloon. Because it's really obvious in Japanese.

The translator was also using "-san, -kun, -chan", but as you know Japanese culture has a tendency to avoid calling people by their name. So, many conversation continued with just pronouns, and became riddles without honorific and indicator.

I could not blame the translator about it. Manga are visual material and relatively easy to understand but perhaps their drawing style is adjusted to Japanese grammar on many occasion.

In that case, leaving the suffixes, -san, -chan etc., using "senpai" etc. would be helpful for reader in some degree. But I'm afraid readers could enjoy the manga in English at first reading.

-*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*-

>NightSwan
Quote
As for the quality of translation, like MaiNina said, it depends on the team. It also depends on the target demographic. For example, manga that's targeted towards younger audiences and is popular, often attracts people who want to just get it out there and don't mind "guesslating", as in, just going with their best guess and hoping for the best.

>"guesslating":
A new slang I learned here? It almost sounds "creating" : ).



Last edited by amenoumi0340 at 3:55 pm, Dec 4

Post #674513
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A talking rock
Member

5:52 am, Dec 7 2015
Posts: 383


I like to draw, and my style are influenced by japanese manga. For the distribution of scanlation online, I think it's partly because of its harder to get manga in overseas (outside of Japan). 'Harder' here refer to the limited number of manga published legally. Most of the manga sold in my country (south east area) are either shoujo or popular seinen/shounen, which don't really fit my taste.

Published manga are usually sorted in rack : children (doraemon, kobo-chan), shoujo, shounen, confused, and the XXX label which contain mature content. But since the rack are placed closely, I'm not sure how effective the separation is. Most of the people that are wondering around manga area is usually teen and young adult though, so maybe it's not really harmful.

Post #674637 - Reply to (#674173) by amenoumi0340
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Animalistic
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7:22 pm, Dec 10 2015
Posts: 55


Quote from amenoumi0340
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>MaiNina
Quote
Now, how someone translates really varies from group to group, from translator to translator, from quality checker to quality checker. In some mangas you will find literal and very direct translation (i.e. "fried ginger" reference), because they believe translating everything in English is the best way, while in some other mangas you will find people leaving the romanized wording and then making a note underneath the panel explaining what it means or directing some people where to find more information. There are also some groups that leave the romanized wording and then at the end of the chapter give detailed explanations of all the unknown words.

It's really interesting there are various translators and methods of translation. Note and comment under the panel seem to be good way : ).

As for the "fried ginger", I just thought at the moment, everyone could ''しょうが焼き '' or ''生姜焼き'' put in Google translation (= first answer would be ''pork fried with ginger''). That would not take so much time if you could extract and type the words. (By the way, are you typing Japanese on a keyboard or inputing by handwriting --like Google translation has in the input box--?)


Perhaps, when they were translating that specific word the translation for it wasn't available then. I also sometimes when I forget something, I go check the translation and correct the sentences myself on Google translate and save it for them.

As for the typing, in all honesty, I have not tried writing anything in Google translate - I kind of even forgot that option exists. It's much faster for me to just type it all out if I need to.

Quote
Quote
A very frequent romanized wording and accepted by almost all groups would be "sensei", "senpai", or "kouhai". The suffixes, -san, -kun, -chi, -chan, and others are also very widely used and not erased.

>"The suffixes, -san, -kun, -chi, -chan, and others":
That reminds me of my experience from a manga in English. Actually it was rather a problem of honorific language though.

Reading the manga I could not understand who talk to whom many times. The author omitted the indicators from balloons so frequently, therefore many conversation seems to be riddles in English.

It's a really frustration, then, I bought the original in Japanese and understood the reason of difficulty.

The characters were using/not using honorific language very strictly. When I read the original, I had no trouble with understanding who talk to whom. I see why the author didn't feel need to draw indicator of balloon. Because it's really obvious in Japanese.

The translator was also using "-san, -kun, -chan", but as you know Japanese culture has a tendency to avoid calling people by their name. So, many conversation continued with just pronouns, and became riddles without honorific and indicator.

I could not blame the translator about it. Manga are visual material and relatively easy to understand but perhaps their drawing style is adjusted to Japanese grammar on many occasion.

In that case, leaving the suffixes, -san, -chan etc., using "senpai" etc. would be helpful for reader in some degree. But I'm afraid readers could enjoy the manga in English at first reading.

-*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*-

Yes, it can get very complicated, because in English, unlike Japanese, you need to distinctly mention the name somewhere in order to figure out who you're talking about or to whom or who is actually talking in the first place. I also personally prefer leaving honorifics whenever possible, as well staying as close as possible to the original meaning and reference, because to me the language is the window of the culture.

Indeed, the drawing style has a lot to do with the language and grammar structure. Just take the easiest notion of leaving some bubbles very small in manga, because kanji can easily fit in there horizontally, while in English, you cannot make it smaller, and you cannot really write it horizontally either, so you either have to make the font super small, or just stroke the text around and leave the text outside of the bubble, because sometimes one word in Japanese equals to about five words in English.
There's always a struggle with making it appropriate and understandable in both languages, but that's also the beauty of it. A beautiful struggle.

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Post #674644
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1:24 am, Dec 11 2015
Posts: 423


As far as honorifics go... We do that in business also. Generally just using -san because I was told not using an honorific isn't acceptable and using Mr Name is too formal... Also in foreign internet correspondence gender is one of those details that can be easily lost.

Post #674810
Member

2:01 pm, Dec 15 2015
Posts: 5


Quote from Sorcha
I like to draw, and my style are influenced by japanese manga.

That's fantastic : ).
Are there any professional authors of manga (manga-ka) in your country (area)?

Quote from MaiNina
Yes, it can get very complicated, because in English, unlike Japanese, you need to distinctly mention the name somewhere in order to figure out who you're talking about or to whom or who is actually talking in the first place. I also personally prefer leaving honorifics whenever possible, as well staying as close as possible to the original meaning and reference, because to me the language is the window of the culture.

Indeed, the drawing style has a lot to do with the language and grammar structure. Just take the easiest notion of leaving some bubbles very small in manga, because kanji can easily fit in there horizontally, while in English, you cannot make it smaller, and you cannot really write it horizontally either, so you either have to make the font super small, or just stroke the text around and leave the text outside of the bubble, because sometimes one word in Japanese equals to about five words in English.
There's always a struggle with making it appropriate and understandable in both languages, but that's also the beauty of it. A beautiful struggle.

I think the manga you translate or oversee the process of translation are really lucky : ). Your translation might be thoughtful and done with passion...

Quote from kaloo
As far as honorifics go... We do that in business also. Generally just using -san because I was told not using an honorific isn't acceptable and using Mr Name is too formal... Also in foreign internet correspondence gender is one of those details that can be easily lost.

That's true. If you call people by their family name without -san when you first met them, that sounds very rude. I'm not sure about using Mr. name though. Some people might feel bad if you call them by first name (even if you added -san). However if you are not Japanese, most people wouldn't mind your wording too much : ).


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If anyone still sees the thread …

Have you ever read manga having an educational purpose? Are there any educational comics (e.g. about history, literature, biography, folklore etc.) drawn in your native language? If not, would you like to read the comics depicted your culture that other countries' authors could (would) not draw?

In my experience, manga was a good tool for learning something by heart.
One of my favorite manga from childhood was ''Nihon no rekishi (Japanese History)'' (20 volumes ; ), published by Shogakukan (revised ed. 23 v.)).

Thanks to the manga, I didn't much studied for the history exams in school days, since I had already memorized all important people's name, historic events, places and things' names with vivid images.

Another was a manga on famous anthology of 100 classic poems (waka). I can recite every poems from memory even nowadays.

Even though I don't think those educational manga are scanlated for overseas reader, they helped my study a lot and enriched my knowledge.
I'm truly grateful for them : ).

-*--*--*--*--*--*--*-



Last edited by amenoumi0340 at 3:05 pm, Dec 15

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