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New Poll - Sports

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zarlan
Post #691150 - Reply to (#691145) by hahhah42
Member

3:51 pm, May 7 2017
Posts: 162


Quote from hahhah42
The definition of sport when speaking of competition does strictly refer to those competitions based upon physical exertion and skill.

First of all, there is no "when speaking of competition".
There has to be competition, or it isn't a sport. That is a central and necessary part of the definition of sport. Physicality, however, is not.

You might want to read http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport#Definition
Also, this is a good venn diagram, illustrating the issue:
http://https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Spo rtidrott.png
(the red circle is physical activity, the blue competition, and schack=chess, datorspel=computer game(s), stavgång=nordic walking)

Last edited by zarlan at 4:16 pm, May 7

zarlan
Post #691151 - Reply to (#691148) by residentgrigo
Member

3:53 pm, May 7 2017
Posts: 162


Quote from residentgrigo
Animals just doing their own thing is enough to get official recognition

No it isn't.
I've never seen any definition (including the one you cited, which I've naturally seen before), by which that could possibly count.

The closest you could get, would be something like greyhound racing
...but that's gambling. Mainly luck based.
It's not animal supported. It's just animal
...and there is no thought of competition, among the greyhounds.
Quote
Acting isn´t a sport though. I will cut in at least there.

I repeat:
"Granted, it's not actually about a sport
...but it has the same feel to it, that sport manga generally have.
Hence I count it as one, though it technically isn't."

At no point did I claim that acting is, in any way, a sport.
It's just that Glass Mask has the same feel, and uses the same kind of tropes, as a sport manga.
As such I categorize it as a sport manga.
Sport manga isn't an activity, nor is reading sport manga, a sport. Reading manga is an experience ...and reading Glass Mask gives the same experience, as reading sport manga.
It is no more different to any single sport manga, than any sport manga is different to another sport manga ...but it shares the same similarities, that the various sport manga share.

The same can be said of Hikaru no Go, but then that, of course, is about a sport.
Not so much Shion no Ou, however, but the shogi isn't really the focus of that manga, so...

Last edited by zarlan at 4:04 pm, May 7

hahhah42
Post #691156
user avatar
Member

6:42 pm, May 7 2017
Posts: 311


The fact that a bureaucratic organization related to sports has chosen to expand its area of influence hasn't changed the definition of sport.

OED
Quote
1. An activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment.

American Heritage Dictionary
Quote
An activity involving physical exertion and skill that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively.

Merriam Webster
Quote
c (1) : physical activity engaged in for pleasure (2) : a particular activity (such as an athletic game) so engaged in

You'll note that there are other definitions of sport - such as any form of diversion - that have nothing to do with competition, which is why I specified the difference.

zarlan
Post #691162 - Reply to (#691156) by hahhah42
Member

10:54 pm, May 7 2017
Posts: 162


Quote from hahhah42
The fact that a bureaucratic organization related to sports has chosen to expand its area of influence hasn't changed the definition of sport.

Indeed. The definition has always been that of competition, regardless of physicality ...though most people have (ignorantly) tended to associate it with physicality.

Dictionaries aren't always accurate.
They are general and simple, and don't deal with every word, in depth or detail (unlike, say, SportAccord, in the case of the term "sport").
Besides: Dictionaries don't dictate what is right, nor do they claim to.
They are descriptive. Not proscriptive.
They try to describe general usage.

Last edited by zarlan at 12:33 am, May 8

hahhah42
Post #691166 - Reply to (#691162) by zarlan
user avatar
Member

1:17 am, May 8 2017
Posts: 311


Quote
The definition has always been that of competition, regardless of physicality

I hope you'll excuse me if I give more credence to the Oxford English Dictionary on the histiorical meaning of the word (i.e. a diversion or pastime, prior to developing the meaning of a physical competition) than your unsourced claim.

The word sport precedes SportAccord by several centuries, and English doesn't have the equivalent of the Académie française to prescribe the language. Given your desire to see the definition rewritten, I assume you know a solid majority of people wouldn't call chess and other board games "sports".

Anyhow, let's see how strictly you believe SportAccord's definition. Tell me, which of the following situations do you consider to be "sports"?

Two computers playing each other in chess.
A group of computers playing a chess tournament under Swiss format.
A human playing against a computer in chess.
A mixture of humans and computers playing a chess tournament under Swiss format.
A group of people competing in a quiz game, such as Jeopardy.
A group of computers competing in a quiz game, such as Jeopardy.
Students taking a standardized test in which results are scored in comparison to each other.
Students taking a test in which results are scored relative to their result (e.g. The Putnam Competition).
Mixed Martial Arts.

If any of these don't qualify, please explain which part of the definition they fail to meet.

zarlan
Post #691170 - Reply to (#691166) by hahhah42
Member

2:55 am, May 8 2017
Posts: 162


Quote from hahhah42
The word sport precedes SportAccord by several centuries

Your point being...?
Quote
I assume you know a solid majority of people wouldn't call chess and other board games "sports".

No I don't "know" that, for sure, but...
That's an Appeal to Popularity.
Most people think that a medieval sword can be accurately termed as a "broadsword".
They're wrong. (they also think that said swords weigh 10+kg, which is preposterous)
Quote
Two computers playing each other in chess.

roll eyes
How is that relevant?
Quote
A group of people competing in a quiz game, such as Jeopardy.

That goes against the "not rely on equipment provided by a single supplier" provision.
It's individual shows, that have their own set rules and everything.
There are no universal rules, or competitions and what competitions there are, are under the sole domain of a single company.
Quote
Students taking a standardized test in which results are scored in comparison to each other.

That's about qualifying, not about competing.
Also it's not a recreational activity.
Quote
Mixed Martial Arts.

In what possible way, would that not qualify as a sport?
It's all about winning matches/tournaments
...and it has all that physicality that you like.

Last edited by zarlan at 3:12 am, May 8

hahhah42
Post #691171
user avatar
Member

3:44 am, May 8 2017
Posts: 311


Quote
Your point being...?

Sport obviously had a definition prior to the existence of SportAccord. I see no reason to cede control over that definition to a party that stands to profit by widening it.

Quote
No I don't "know" that, but...
That's an Appeal to Popularity.

So dictionaries can't define what's a sport, nor can popular usage, only bureaucracies receiving money based on their member organizations get to determine what fits. Seems like a conflict of interest to me.

Quote
How is that relevant?

How does computers playing chess fail SportAccord's definition? There's nothing in their definition that requires the participation of humans.

Quote
That goes against the "not rely on equipment provided by a single supplier" provision.
It's individual shows, that have their own set rules and everything. There are no universal rules, or competitions and what competitions there are, are under the sole domain of a single company.

There are various companies that supply buzzers and questions to academic quiz game competitions, and there are multiple different competitions at the school and university level.

Plenty of sports have different rules depending on which organization runs the competition. For example, in American football, the NFL has different rules from the CFL, they both have different rules from what international tournaments there are, and all of these have different rules from college and high school football. There's no set of universal rules. (And these differences include basic things such as how the game is scored.)

Quote
That's about qualifying, not about competing.
Also it's not a recreational activity.

There's nothing in the SA definition requiring that a sport be a recreational activity. Competing for qualification is a form of competition in many sports, e.g. tennis. Besides, I gave the Putnam as an example of an academic exam competition that is essentially recreational and has no qualifying aspect to it, aside from having a scholarship as one of its possible prizes.

Quote
Mixed Martial Arts.

In what possible way, would that not qualify as a sport?
It's all about winning matches/tournaments
...and it has all that physicality that you like.

Tell that to SportAccord, then. They don't include it as a sport, presumably because various traditional martial arts organizations lobby against it. (Note that MMA is illegal in France due to the influence of their judo organization.)

I don't see what's gained by watering down the definition of sport until it's essentially synonymous with competition. The physical aspect of the definition is a useful distinction that in no way diminishes the value of chess, bridge and other games with long, noteworthy histories.

TaoPaiPai
Post #691193
Member

2:59 pm, May 8 2017
Posts: 1042


plz longer debates about shit no1 cares about
plz plz plz

i would like to read a good comic about esports

sasxxitaga
Post #691203
user avatar
Kon'nichiwa!
Member

7:25 pm, May 8 2017
Posts: 21


Chose track and field.
I was in the track and field club at school as well and I loved the jerseys they used to give us bigrazz

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K9ofChaos
Post #691213
user avatar
Member

9:43 pm, May 8 2017
Posts: 4


I voted for Martial Arts, but if I had the option of choosing multiple choices to vote for at once, I would've also chose the following:

1. Kendo
2. Archery
3. Boxing
4. Wrestling
5. Judo
6. Fencing
7. Shooting

Mainly because those sports in particular also fall under the martial arts category. I wish there was more manga with a just as huge and diverse cast of Martial Arts practitioners as Kenichi does. Though I could do without the 10+ made up martial arts. One made up martial art is my absolute limit, or at least in the single to lower double digits. none

Nekore
Post #691217 - Reply to (#691166) by hahhah42
Member

11:26 pm, May 8 2017
Posts: 59


If you want a sourced claim
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLgn3geod9Q

Also there is the whole LN/anime of Fune wo Amu about the behinds of dictionaries.

At the end they are more of a record of language than a teaching book, that's why in spanish there was recently added words that have been miswritten for decades.

Also, what's your opinion about shooting and golf being considered sports, because there isn't much physical exertion in those, and if being fit is being considered as physical exertion then it's also necesary for chess and e-sports to perform correctly.

Melrakki
Post #691221 - Reply to (#691213) by K9ofChaos
user avatar
Member

1:54 am, May 9 2017
Posts: 11


Quote
I wish there was more manga with a just as huge and diverse cast of Martial Arts practitioners as Kenichi does.


Have you read Holyland?

zarlan
Post #691229 - Reply to (#691171) by hahhah42
Member

7:24 am, May 9 2017
Posts: 162


Quote from hahhah42
Sport obviously had a definition prior to the existence of SportAccord.

Your point being...?
Quote
I see no reason to cede control over that definition to a party that stands to profit by widening it.

Stand to profit? How?
Quote
So dictionaries can't define what's a sport, nor can popular usage, only bureaucracies receiving money based on their member organizations get to determine what fits. Seems like a conflict of interest to me.

Yeah, 'cause those are the only possible options... roll eyes
...and thus we add False Dichotomy, to the fallacies, you use.
...
Besides, if we accept popular usage, you're losing the argument.
Quote
How does computers playing chess fail SportAccord's definition? There's nothing in their definition that requires the participation of humans.

Again: It's too for anyone to bother to mention it.
Besides, if the participants have no concept of what they are doing, then they are not competing.
...and a computer AI does not.
It just carries out calculations.
Once you have sentient AIs, that'd be different, but for now...
Quote
There are various companies that supply buzzers and questions to academic quiz game competitions

There are academic quiz competitions?
Quote
Plenty of sports have different rules depending on which organization runs the competition

Slight variations. The basics are still the same ...and you have
Quote
There's nothing in the SA definition requiring that a sport be a recreational activity.

...because that is such an obvious part, that they don't need to mention it.
Quote
Besides, I gave the Putnam as an example of an academic exam competition that is essentially recreational and has no qualifying aspect to it, aside from having a scholarship as one of its possible prizes.

Regardless of any other aspect: The existence of one, single, competition does not make an activity a sport.
Quote
Tell that to SportAccord, then. They don't include it as a sport.

Oh? Have they stated that it isn't a sport?
I did a quick search and found no such statement.

zarlan
Post #691231 - Reply to (#691217) by Nekore
Member

7:37 am, May 9 2017
Posts: 162


Quote from Nekore
Also there is the whole LN/anime of Fune wo Amu about the behinds of dictionaries.

...
There's an anime about how dictionaries are made? (and it's a Noitamina anime, no less!)
This I gotta see.


Senrosj
Post #691259
Member

12:26 am, May 10 2017
Posts: 25


I chose martial arts as that is one of the things I want more of, but I also want more of competitive dancing like Ballroom e Youkoso. Sports manga overall are good as long as they focus mostly on the sports part and don't get too out of hand with super powers. That's a turn off. It's fine to use romance to move the story, but when it severely hinders it and is just there to fill space and waste time, it's crap.

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