I'm sorry, but your poor grammer is making your argument difficult to follow. I apologize if English is not your first language, I mean no offense. I will try to make sense of it as best I can.

You are misquoting me. What I said was a "person" has the right to live. A born baby is a person. An unborn baby is not yet a person. It is still dependent on it's mother to live therefore any rights it might have are waived in favor of the mother's rights. By implication, an unborn baby still dependent on it's mother, with no rights or legal status as a person is nothing more than an organism. I also never said it's my choice to decide what should live and what shouldn't. My entire argument is about giving women that choice. Your argument by comparison, seeks to take that choice away from them by forcing birth.


A zygote is a potential fetus which is a potential baby. Therefore, by that logic a zygote is a potential unborn baby. I think my statement still stands.

That's fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. My opinion is rather then wasting my money "raising another life" I'd rather prevent an unplanned/unwanted birth in the first place and then use the money saved to send an equally deserving child to school. That way, I can
a) help a kid become productive in society by getting him/her an education,
b) help others add to the welfare system instead of being a burden on it which will also reduce national debt,
c) break the cycle of perpetual welfare moms,
d) reduce the number of poor, uneducated families through increased education,
e) not be a selfish person who would deny women their rights by taking away their choice.

I am against abortion but, I have no right to say to the mother to have an abortion or not. only I would have the say if it's me

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I hear you say "Why?" Always "Why?" You see things; and you say "Why?" But I dream things that never were; and I say "Why not?"

I am indifferent to it.
I don't really care if the female chooses to have an abortion. It's her choice after all.

We can respond to stimuli without any brain function. When a doctor hits your knee to test reflexes the only parts of the body are your muscle tissue and spinal cord. Its an automatic response, similar to the movement of plants when a stimuli is introduced.

Here's a website called Silent Scream, it's a medical website that shows the last moments of a 12 week old fetus during an abortion. If this doesn't pull at your heartstrings man, I don't know what will. Video is here. Seriously, take the time to watch it and read the site....it's crazy.

That being said I'm pro choice, as sad as it is when a being dies, a lot of the time that child will be better off not existing. Especially in developing countries where things like rape and forced prostitution are a commonplace.

However I do know a person who has abused the system. She has had like 7 or 8 abortions, it's sickening the way she treats it like a contraceptive.

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Insert Catchy Signature Here.

Personally, I wouldn't do it. If you have sex then you know what you are getting into. But I believe it's the women's choice and people can state their opinion but they can't say what "the mother" should or shouldn't do. I wish people would also keep in mind that if the women doesn't want the baby but gives birth, she could possibly abuse the child later on. Give props to those who chose to raise their baby without resenting them though. (:

*I know I contradicted myself but you catch my drift.

Last edited by neonkitty at 8:49 pm, Aug 12 2010

I am female, and completely against abortion.
In short- I know how hard it can be to try to make a child for some couples. Many things can go wrong naturally during a pregnancy. Last life is precious, and something no one should play god with.

I believe there's no reason a woman should get an abortion, other than if the pregnancy were carried to term both of them wouldn't survive. Yes, in the case of rape I don't think that's a good enough reason to have an abortion. It's just rape, you can get over that. Hey the thing that may help you get over it, may very well be that child. That child could be the sweetest child ever that helps mend the woman.

For the argument if we don't let woman get an abortion legally than they would seriously injure or kill themselves. I would say go ahead and die. You want to kill something you could go ahead and die with it. ( With all the available conception to prevent these sort of things from happening if you don't want one.) Again for the rape case, you could always give that child away for adoption.

*sigh* there's my two cents.

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Yes yes, I know I make longwinded comments, but that's just me >.<
I should proof read my comments more, but I won't...
So keep in mind I'm filled with typos

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You know, by average, I'm very unlikely to be a victim of a rape due to various social, physical and mental factors, yet even I find some of the things in your post quite offensive and/or insensitive. On a general level, that is.

I'll be the first one to laugh at very crude jokes about rape and such, and sometimes wince at the complaints about what kind of scenes and material should be banned because it can cause flashbacks and whatnot, yet the opinion that rape victims should essentially be forced to carry to term a pregnancy caused by rape, seems, to me, very alien and extremely dismissive. Inhuman, even. Even given away, it is still 9 months of living with a parasitic being inside you, reminding you of your prior experience. It is not something that one can just "get over with." (Individual experiences may vary)

Actually, your post is kinda bipolar, since you argue a very heavy pro-life stance yet say "ahead and die." Isn't life supposed to be precious? Because really, that part is kinda like saying that killing something/someone is okay, so long as you also kill yourself while at it.

Hell, logistics wise, it would propably cost less to get one of the starving African children (yeah, I'm using the starving African child argumen. I'm almost ashamed of myself. Almost.) flown over and then taken care of, when compared to the various costs the pregnancy and birth of the completely unwanted rape-child. And if it costs less, then you should go that way, since then you can save more lives with the same amount of resources, right? After all, you cannot save *everyone.*

Mmmm. I'm glad I updated my sig

Last edited by Baalzebup at 2:08 pm, Nov 14 2013

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Yeah I knew my post could be taken as offensive and/or insensitive. As for the your post is kinda bipolar . Yes, I do consider life as precious, and if one tries to take another that they should suffer the same fate. Kind of like a double edge blade. ( If this was a serial killer, the thought well since he kills he should get the death penalty is kind of the same for me with a woman killing her own child).
The reason why rape doesn't cause that sort of sensitivity (which yes, I can see how I lack some on the subject) in me is probably my thoughts on life. Life is messy, S*** happens, you get over it and grow stronger. Be grateful that your alive, and able to get over it. Life is a beautiful thing enjoy it while you can. (How can you know the highs without the lows). *Note I am not saying that rape is ok. It is a terrible thing for someone to do, but the end result of an action is should not be a reason to abort the child.
And if the woman is so disgusted and stressed out by carrying the rape child, she may possible miscarriage and get the results she wanted with the abortion thought. Probably more trauma though.


Yet, again I knew this post can be seem as offensive and/or insensitive, but that's how I am at times. These are my feelings on abortion, but abortion isn't a pretty thing, and neither are my feelings.


I like your signature too. Oh and my husband already thinks I'm bipolar lol ... I don't think I am ... but that's not the point.

________________
Yes yes, I know I make longwinded comments, but that's just me >.<
I should proof read my comments more, but I won't...
So keep in mind I'm filled with typos

Check out FAQ and Forum Rules if you haven't yet.
For errors linking in threads

Hey, everyone is entitled to their opinions and one's personal feelings on any given subject cannot actually be wrong, seeing as that opinion is yours and no-one elses. One can debate morality and legality and such from here 'till high noon, but you feel what you feel. There is nothing more honest than that.

Edit: Also, words cannot describe the love I feel for your choice of avatar.

Edit 2: I got curious. Did you read the rest of the thread? I found Tofuqueen's post on page 4 quite a compelling argument. Seeing as your stance seems quite far from mine on a general standpoint, I'm very interested on how much weight you would give to it? It basically approaches the whole subject from a different direction when compared to the normal pro-life vs pro-choice arguing.

Last edited by Baalzebup at 3:27 pm, Nov 14 2013

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Yes, technically abortion is murder, so what ? Is it not enough that women don't go through the process having a lot of fun, people still have to add extra layers of guilt and sorrow with this kind of rhetorics (when it doesn't go beyond words) ?

I could go on and argue that an embryo is not a human being, that human beings are animals, that there's no absolute reason for euthanasia to be taboo, that the earth is overcrowded with us parasites, that religions and cultures have always been so prone to categorize women as mere household fourniture and offspring factories, and put some nicer philosophical or scientifical makeup over my convictions, but i'll stop right here.

Rant about societal matters threads


Back on topic, i'm going to answer with a question : say there's only one region left in the world that still forbids/allows abortion, very likely along with other unique cultural specificities, how would you react as another region's citizen ? And what would be your answer if "abortion" is replaced with, say, "excision" ?


I completely agree with the "treating the pathology and not the symptoms" stance, but to me arguing about embryo at time t being a human being and not at t+1 is pointless as a conclusive argument, if my blabbering didn't make it clear already.

When a woman becomes pregnant, the baby within her is a NEW creation...a new person. It has the DNA of both father and mother and so therefore a NEW person! It is NOT a part of the mother like her heart or lung, but a separate person.

I didn't really want to get into this discussion. lol but I wanted to say that. Oh and I believe in LIFE. I believe each person no matter how small, inside womb or outside the womb has a purpose.

I've never been pregnant. There are so many things that I could say, but to me right now the most saddening thing is to see people treating life like a worm or how horrible it is. It is precious.

I wonder how many women who have had an abortion can do them or and over. I wonder how many women who have had an abortion can't forget what they have done and are in such pain.

I wonder how many men agonize over the decision they made with their partner to end the pregnancy by using abortion. I wonder how many men have not even given it a thought.

The surest way to not have an unplanned/unwanted pregnancy is abstinence. I know. I know. That's no fun. Well then take responsibility for your actions. If you get pregnant or get a girl pregnant, then "man up." Abortion should never be an option.

No, I have never had an abortion. Have you? I don't know what they are like. I can't image having one and I never will have one. I see life as too precious.

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"We are what we believe we are."
~C. S. Lewis~

To speak to one part of this...I know several women who have had abortions many years in the past & have never expressed ANY regret at all.

One is now in her 70s and has stated to me that she has never had a moment of regret. At the time of her abortion she had two small children and was going through a divorce; she simply could not imagine being able to mother a third child (or be a good mother to the two she already had, if she had to continue the pregnancy). She had her tubes tied at the same time as the abortion, to make SURE that it was a one-time thing.

I'm sure there are women for whom an abortion was a wrenching decision & something they agonize over, but there are also women for whom it was clearly the best choice given their circumstances & who have no regrets.

It's very easy to say "have the baby let someone adopt it" but pregnancy is not always a physically easy thing. Some women feel very sick for a long time. I once knew a woman who had to be hospitalized during both of her pregnancies because she couldn't eat ANYthing without throwing up. This woman was financially ok, in a stable relationship, and the babies were planned & wanted - but if your situation was already difficult, imagine dealing with feeling horribly sick and being hospitalized as well. I was on bedrest for a month during my pregnancy; fortunately my job paid disability pay during that time (1/2 or 1/3 of my usual pay, I think) but a lot of people don't have that.

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"[English] not only borrows words from other languages; it has on occasion chased other languages down dark alley-ways, clubbed them unconscious and rifled their pockets for new vocabulary."
-James Nicoll, can.general, March 21, 1992

I personally would never get an abortion but I have nothing against those people who do go and get an abortion. It's a person's right to choose how they live their life and the same can be said in this case. People can argue all they like about the fact that it is murder but the truth of the matter is that the person having the abortion is the one who will have to carry that child and eventually give birth to that child so they are the ones that are going through that process with their own children not anyone else. Everyone has their own circumstances and yet it feels like many people just don't care about this fact. Is it right to force someone to carry a child for many months and have them possibly grow attached to their child only to know in the end that they cannot keep that child because of whatever circumstances? I don't think so. So people can complain all they want but in the end the mother should always have the choice.

About adoption, some women just do not feel it is a good choice for their baby since not every adoption in the world does good for the child. People hear about the pain and abuse many children have suffered through foster care and bad adoptions and some people fear that. I don't think that getting an abortion because of these things is proper though. These should not be reasons in which expecting birth mothers, who cannot keep their child, decide to go through with an abortion. I understand why they would go through abortions because of it, if they can't keep the baby, but in the end I feel that there is no guarantee that the baby will not go to a good home. So if the person is willing to go through giving birth in order to give their baby up for adoption then I feel it should happen but only if they are willing to go through with it.

In addition I just want to mention, since this seems forgotten (not that I really wanted to check every post to see if it was mentioned), what about those women who get raped and find out they are pregnant because of the rape? Do some people think it is fair for someone to carry, give birth too, and possibly raise a child that was conceived through rape? I for one do not think that would be fair. Some woman just cannot handle that. The pain from the rape is enough to make some women want to die but then if abortion is taken away as an option what are these women to do? I don't think I have to mention how many things could go wrong in these situations.

People who are against abortion should look at all the reasons why a woman could feel the need to go through an abortion not just go against it because it goes against their beliefs or they just don't agree. I understand that it is killing a life that has just started to take form but even so if you yourself are not carrying that child what say do you really have in the matter? In my opinion only the person carrying the child has any real say. Of course the father, if involved, has a say and the mother should not just go out and have an abortion without sorting it out first but in the end the father should also understand that "she" not "he" is carrying that child.

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Remembrance, a forsaken thing that revokes ignorance and leaves people in doubt, is my only redemption and solace deep within the cascade of white.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
The evergreen trees speak of days long past when music mingled with the wind and sweet murmurs brushed our cheeks.

They should have the right to abort but here is a question for you.

Should the man have a say in the abortion, since he will be obligated to look after and pay for the kid?
Takes 2 to tango.



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I believe in letting people do as they wish, as do I myself. Sometimes, of course, what I wish to do is kill them and they do not wish to die. This gives life interest.

Pro-choice. As an acorn is not a tree, an embryo is not a human being.



He doesn't have to look after it, just pay child support - which is too bad for him, but 'get this potentially emotionally/physically harmful operation so that I won't have to pay child support' is not a good argument.