The Japanese Slaughter.
15 years ago
Posts: 4764
Full title: The Japanese Slaughter - Abuse of language.
Saw this thread again and thought "Why do so many Japanese mangaka slaughter other languages?"
"Is it so hard to do a bit of research?"
"We're in the 21st century. Surely, they have access to the Internet/other material/help."
"Are they being lazy?"
But I come across broken language again and again.
Just last week, I was asked to translate a bit in Russian from Planets.
It all seemed ok until that one bubble... It was a mess.
I had to guess what the author might have meant, having not read the manga itself
(and the bubble not making sense).
Another example would be from Copernicus no Kokyuu.
Even with my non existing French,
I saw that something was wrong and with the help of the QCer, we fixed it.
As much as I love the mangaka, this I could not forgive.
Personally, I get rather angry when I see how other languages get butchered in manga.
Shouldn't it be their responsibility as authors to give us credible material?
And I'm not even talking about historical facts.
What are your opinions?
Are you indifferent to this, or does your eye twitch everytime you see such injustice?
Is it ok if you don't understand it?
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15 years ago
Posts: 774
I mean, I'm sure we all do it from time to time.
Although you can really tell the quality of an author by how much effort and research they put in, a lot of the time it can just be taken lightly.
Most of the time I just find it Hilarious.
Ever been to Engrish.com?
It's freaking great.
All in all, as long as it isn't the whole point of the manga, then whatever.
15 years ago
Posts: 38
Considering there are people who can't speak/write their home language correctly, I really don't get up in arms over the mistakes mangakas make in other languages.
15 years ago
Posts: 325
I don't really care. Half the time, the addition of foreign words is to add a bit of an exotic touch to the manga, and most of the time the manga is directed to the specific japanese target. I guess the mangaka assumes that the particular group targeted wouldn't be that knowledgeable or in depth with the particular knowledge itself, so they can butcher a bit, dumb it down even, or just use it completely wrong because it sounds good.
In terms of credible material, you need to remember that this is an entire language you are talking about. A mangaka is not going to take the time to learn the entire language and nitpick at the proper grammatical structure, spelling, or even meaning just to use a few words. At best, they probably babelfished a translation and out came the abortion that you see, and not investigating any further they just use that, partially because of time constraints, but mainly because it just doesn't matter that much to their target audience.
I just don't care. On the internet, with SO many different nationalities tossed together in one big salad bowl, not everyone is going to speak english and I accept that. I don't expect them to speak perfect english (and although butchered english is good for a laugh, I don't hold it against them), and in return they shouldn't expect me to speak their language perfectly. I can also speak vietnamese (fractured vietnamese) and french (extremely limited), but I rarely ever speak these languages. When I do attempt to speak these languages (particularly vietnamese to my parents or relatives), they understand that I have no interest in mastering languages, and that I only speak vietnamese because I don't expect them to have perfect english.
Ultimately, I think people are too stuck-up about their own language to understand that not everyone knows, or wants to know the language. Living in a bilingual city (HARDCORE bilingual. It is hard enough to find a job if you can't speak english and french), this city frowns upon anyone who can't speak french, yet if a person can't speak english, it is completely acceptable. Yes, you have a right to talk to a person in your own language, but I have a right to speak my own language too. I shouldn't be reprimanded or lose job opportunities simply because I can't speak french adequately enough to say that I am fluent in it.
I say just take it like it is. The mangas were never directed towards those particular languages anyways, and I'm sure if the mangaka met those people he or she would feel a bit embarassed, but it served its purpose and it's over. Just take it as it is.
15 years ago
Posts: 1901
It really isn't acceptable in my opinion. In any other publication a little bit of a passage in a language the author doesn't speak, would be checked and double checked, BEFORE going to the editor, and even then, any remaining mistake would be corrected by the editor. Someone obviously isn't doing their job right.
Member15 years ago
Posts: 9026
I'm pretty sure there are Japanese that know the languages as well. I think it has more to do with how Japanese grammar works and how they try to impose it in some way on foreign languages as well to make it more clear to the average Sousuke.
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15 years ago
Posts: 38
Quote from shaggievara
It really isn't acceptable in my opinion. In any other publication a little bit of a passage in a language the author doesn't speak, would be checked and double checked, BEFORE going to the editor, and even then, any remaining mistake would be corrected by the editor. Someone obviously isn't doing their job right.
I have to disagree.
You seem to be implying that authors and journalists don't have that sort of errors in their works. I have read books, magazines, and newspapers in English with words, phrases, or even excerpts in other languages that are misspelled, grammatically wrong, misused, or translated incorrectly later in the text.
You also appear to be saying that mangaka don't check or double-check their work and that their editors also fail to correct the errors. I am sure that they are very careful about their work and that their editors are also doing their jobs.
Mistakes happen. Things slip through the cracks. No one is perfect.
I once had a professor who used to say that everyone notices a mistake--the rest of your work may be perfect and divine, but people will seek out the flaws. I really believe this truly applies to this situation. We are seeing the errors in the use of a foreign language, but what about all the other times when there are no errors.
15 years ago
Posts: 111
Foreign languages are used commonly in Japan simply because it looks cool, similarly to how Japanese or Chinese characters are often used stupidly in the west.
It doesn't really bother me, because chances are the author and most readers don't know and won't care if it's wrong. Ultimately it's usually used as something the reader isn't supposed to really understand, so the meaning is unimportant.
15 years ago
Posts: 1901
Quote from lovelyoceaneyes
You seem to be implying that authors and journalists don't have that sort of errors in their works. I have read books, magazines, and newspapers in English with words, phrases, or even excerpts in other languages that are misspelled, grammatically wrong, misused, or translated incorrectly later in the text.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen in English works either. I stand by my point, when mistakes are made in the creative writing world, its because someone wasn't doing their job. Whenever I see errors, all I think of is how sloppy and unprofessional it is. I'm sorry if that bothers you, I'm aware that everyone makes mistakes, but its when those mistakes can be prevented that they are unnecessary.
Quote from lovelyoceaneyes
You also appear to be saying that mangaka don't check or double-check their work and that their editors also fail to correct the errors. I am sure that they are very careful about their work and that their editors are also doing their jobs.
Yeah, that's exactly what I am saying, and I am sure that some are careful, that some double check and some have editors that actually know what proof-reading is. But there are some that don't and those are the ones I am obviously talking about. The thing is, it is their job to make sure that it is presentable before it is published. If it isn't, then they are not doing their jobs. Its really that simple.
15 years ago
Posts: 846
Not too much of a big deal for me 'cos I don't have the right to complain.
In my country, you gotta know a variety of words from various languages and dialects in order to communicate. Of course, there's English, but then there's Malay, Mandarin(formal/informal/highly informal/technical, etc.), Mandarin dialects, Singlish, Indian languages and so on... You don't have to be proficient but you must know at least some words and terms in order to communicate 'cos not everyone is fluent in English.
And Singlish is pretty complicated too 'cos it's a big mish mash of English(American, Australian, British), Mandarin/Chinese dialects, Malay, Indian, Japanese and so on. >>;; I mean... they just keep adding new words in... every now and then. 🤢
Apart from English, I can't even speak most of the others well. So, there's no point for me in grumbling about things like these, really. I mean... I'm supposed to be able to understand and speak Cantonese, Teochew, Hainanese and other dialects(spoken in my parents' families) yet I can barely manage Hokkien and can't speak/understand the other dialects at all. 🤣
Going to the main topic:
Besides, sometimes for certain languages and dialects, there's the problem of localization, outdated language and so on. Those are some of the problems, I think, why most manga just can't get it right. Besides, many mangaka have to do the research on their own while there're the ones who probably pay a lot to some researcher(s) to do it for them.
And there's the issue that localized languages/dialects will be different from the others.
15 years ago
Posts: 158
Yeah, it does bother me. What I find really grating is when a mangaka will use English or French to build up a romantic, sophisticated feel - but what he or she uses sounds more ridiculous than the mangled words of a four year old with a severe speech impediment. And don't get me started on Japanese voice actors attempting to speak English in anime.
I can understand why it happens, though. Defend it as you may, Japan is still largely an ethnically homogenous nation, and there's a pretty small percentage of people that can speak anything other than Japanese (outside of high-school level English taught by either a poorly-trained Japanese teacher or a stoner business major) because on that island nation there's little need for it.
15 years ago
Posts: 38
Quote from shaggievara
I'm not saying it doesn't happen in English works either. I stand by my point, when mistakes are made in the creative writing world, its because someone wasn't doing their job. Whenever I see errors, all I think of is how sloppy and unprofessional it is. I'm sorry if that bothers you, I'm aware that everyone makes mistakes, but its when those mistakes can be prevented that they are unnecessary.
Yeah, that's exactly what I am saying, and I am sure that some are careful, that some double check and some have editors that actually know what proof-reading is. But there are some that don't and those are the ones I am obviously talking about. The thing is, it is their job to make sure that it is presentable before it is published. If it isn't, then they are not doing their jobs. Its really that simple.
I do see where you're coming from. When the errors are in the writer's home language, I completely agree with you that it is sloppy and unprofessional. In those cases I also feel that someone was not doing their job and that the error should have been caught. I guess I just feel it is unreasonable to hold people to whom it is a second or third language or even something just used for effect to the same standards.
... By the way, "its" is the possessive form of the word it; "it's" is the proper word to mean "it is." lol
15 years ago
Posts: 1899
I'm not saying I condone this (those of you that know me probably realize that I nearly suffer from a series of internal hemorrhages every time I see something like that), but the fact of the matter is that it's not actually all that big a deal.
I'm just going to argue this from a cultural standpoint because I think the linguistic side of the argument is wholly interpretive and basically a dead end. Japan is one of the few societies in the world I would consider hybridized in the sense of globalization theory. It assimilates aspects from various other cultures, reinterprets them to suit conventional Japanese-ness, as it were, and proliferates it. There are tons of examples- food is my personal favorite. Pizza's a good choice- I don't know of many other places in the world where it's difficult to find a slice of pizza that isn't slathered in corn and mayonnaise (well, it often seems like just about everything in Japan is slathered in a layer of corn and mayonnaise). Sounds midwestern, but it's obvious the minute you walk into a convenience store.
The other day I ordered a chef's salad at a faux-Italian place in downtown Tokyo. What they brought me was topped with wakame (a type of seaweed) and dusted in paprika. I wasn't aware of either of those being popular salad ingredients in Italian cuisine.
This is degrading into a bit of a rant, but I'll get to the point. In Japan, a fake version of a foreign culture is just as acceptable as the real alternative. That applies to food, it applies to film, it applies to advertising, and it applies to language itself. You see engrish nonsense everywhere because it's perfectly acceptable within cultural context. It goes without saying that the same carelessness will spread to manga and the like if it's culturally integrated. Besides, the stuff is created for a Japanese target audience. What percentage of Japanese would you guess speak Russian? It's probably well under 2%, barring a couple concentrated areas in Hokkaido ports.
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15 years ago
Posts: 158
applauds Creshinbon
This is exactly what I would say if I had the insight and non-laziness to do so.
15 years ago
Posts: 3229
I basically agree with what Shaggie and Crenshin said.
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