My point clearly flew over you and switchgear's heads.

The stories I listed are indeed incomparable to One Piece and Bleach. However, my point was that they are quite long - but you don't call them "extremely drawn out stories".

Each of those stories has an end goal - just like OP and Bleach.
But aside from Bleach, they also have a Journey.
Each arc begins with a call to action and ends with a resolution - but no "journey".
From the "beginning", the end goal was to defeat Aizen. He was THE man to beat. The final boss. The endgame. We're talking about a guy who was pretty much in godmode, here. Ichigo had no other goals. No other reasons to fight.
The fact that Bleach went on even after the defeat of Aizen, is evidence enough that it's being drawn out.
Sure, he now has a new reason to fight - but the end goal is still vague even to him - and even then, it's still no bigger than his first end goal.

In One Piece, the end goal is clear - to get to the legendary One Piece. A treasure on an epic level. Luffy sets off on a journey to fulfill his ambition. He meets some people along the way, befriends them and and finds out that they are in a dire need of help. He rescues them from their crisis and they tag along. (Note Akillaz: Character development happens here)
The journey continues.
Now, he still hasn't reached his end goal - and not because the plot is being drawn out, but because he still has many things to overcome and do.

Just to clarify, I do like bleach. It's a great action series - but it's not one with a commendable plot.

Last edited by Scyfon at 1:51 am, Aug 13 2012

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Everyday I'm tumblin'

Because you don't seem to get it... the comparison is not of the story, but of the length. Scyfon's saying that just because something is long, doesn't mean it's drawn out.

I'll also go ahead and tackle Akillaz.

OP is easily better than Bleach. No character development? Are you saying a story needs to have dynamic characters to be good? Because that's nonsense. One Piece is like Indiana Jones or the Adventures of Tintin. It's about well written fun and adventure. (Not to mention Oda can write personal, moving moments if he chooses to. For example Usopp's dissent, Hiruluk, or Calgara and Norland) It's like drinking a Guinness and complaining about how it's not a good champagne. Would you seriously say Indiana Jones is a stupid series because he doesn't change as a person?

Let's compare this to Bleach failing what little character development it has. Maybe Renji in the most recent chapters. He goes through the Fullbring arc claiming that enemies are no match for him anymore now that he's trained to fight Aizen. (Which also means that Renji must have been dicking around for hundreds of years if he managed to exponentially upgrade himself in such a short amount of time.) Fast forward to the current arc and look at how he handles things when Aizen-like shit starts happening. He doesn't; he completely looses all sense of composure. Or how about Soifon? Old Kubo goes out of his way to give us an interesting explanation as to why she avoids using her bankai. But the new, cooler, yet proportionally more awful Kubo decides that the first thing she would do when confronted with bankai-stealing villains is to use her bankai. Brilliant.

How about some Ichigo? His actions during the Fullbring arc are absolutely terrible. Everyone describes him as sort of stoic, reliable protector. But look at how he handled the Tsukushima appearing in his house. He fucking runs away, leaving a murderer right in the midst of his friends and family. His reaction may have been appropriate if he were a normal guy in some other series, but he isn't. I've heard people say that he was just leaving to get innocent bystanders out of the way. But that doesn't make sense either because he clings to Ikumi (a normal human) immediately upon flight, endangering her life as well. I've also heard that he was really trying to protect his secret shinigami identity from his friends and family. Again, that's dumb too because memory erasing exists in the form of kikan shinki. There's absolutely no viable reason to run away from Tsukushima other than to fulfill the tired cycle of Ichigo failing hard and subsequently gaining resolve. This does nothing to strengthen his character and instead tells us that Ichigo is just a fickle joke. The only reason they rely on him is because they have nobody better to rely upon.

Drawn out? Explain to me why One Piece is dragged out. One Piece's worst arc is probably Fishman Island, and that's because it's too rushed. If anything, Oda needed to make the arc longer.
- Flashback skirts over arguably the most important part: Fisher Tigers Marijois invasion, and leaves Fisher Tiger very underdeveloped
- Almost none of the early arc island-exploration, to showcase the new location. Fishman karate Dojo is never shown.
- No real second act - the flashback is the only thing between the trip to the palace and the climax
- Characters introduced, and nothing is done with them; Den, Madame Sharley, Hachi, Hammond and Camie for instance. Caribou is gone almost the entire arc.
- Concepts ditto: What came of Sharley being Arlongs sister? What about the emmigration plans?
- Villains are underdeveloped, recievíng little exposure before short, anticlimatic fights.

Bleach on the other hand is clearly being drawn out. The whole fullbring arc is rendered useless because Ichigo was going to get his powers back regardless. Ginjo or not, Rukia was coming back to stab him full of powers. Testing his allegiance to SS? Also doesn't make sense. Ichigo gets his powers back right after being royally screwed by some random nobodies. What did they expect him to do? Of cource Ichigo was going to side with SS. There was nothing impartial about the test of his loyalty.

Then there's the current arc. Mayuri's conversation with Yamamoto about the supposed Quincy war that happened 1000 years ago should have been shown 400 chapters ago. Instead the first ever mention of that conversation was just recently. It's obvious that Kubo is just lazily reworking some past concepts in order to churn out some much needed plot. There's no attempt at foreshadowing or necessity. It should have never continued past Aizen.

And Bleach-No1-Manga is clearly trolling, but I'll bite. One Piece fans don't hate Bleach just because they like One Piece. You don't see One Piece fans trashing HunterxHunter, Toriko, Berserk, Shingeki no Kyojin, etc. Bleach on the other hand sets the precedent for itself by having consistently terrible writing. It gets bashed because it's bad, not because people like other things. If you like Bleach, that's fine. But to completely deny its flaws is another thing entirely. It should be treated as a guilty pleasure; something you know is bad, but enjoy anyway. I like Bleach but I'm not going to pretend it's well written.

Also here's a guy who tries to pin down why people are dropping Bleach.

http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/ir/yrt/readright/3509 8-read-right-to-left-the-downfall-of-bleach-part-1
http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/ir/yrt/readright/3535 2-read-right-to-left-the-downfall-of-bleach-part-2

Last edited by Unrequited at 1:52 am, Aug 13 2012

Daaaayum, I couldn't have said it better myself (no, really lol)

Good job (Y)

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Everyday I'm tumblin'

Haha thanks!

tl;dr

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"Sanity is for the weak"

Just as expected.

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Everyday I'm tumblin'

TL;DR? Really?
Unrequited and Scyfon came up with great reasons and evidence as to why OP is considered a better series than Bleach and you're just going to run away from it. Wow.

Translation: I'm wrong.

fine you guys have made me read the wall of text...

as for the little to no character development, i was simply stating that both series have about the same character development(very low). and both have drawn out stories like ichigo winning and loosing loads of power and barely winning by some fluke at the end of every boss over and over and luffy chasing one treasure for over 10 years now, i dont know about you guys but i say that feels outdrawn.

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"Sanity is for the weak"

Champions are raised, not born.
No epic saga ends shortly after its beginning.


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Everyday I'm tumblin'

Like I said before you're looking in the wrong series for character development. Case in point, Indiana Jones. You'd be better off looking through Nausicaa, Real, or Lone Wolf and Cub or something. Conversely, you wouldn't go into Nausicaa expecting shounen battles and comedy.

Bleach has been drawn out post Aizen. That's what Kubo gets for not planning out his story well enough. (Ichigo has no goal whatsoever) But even prior to that, Bleach's flippant power levels and fluke wins aren't indicative of a drawn out story, but rather a poorly done battle foundation. And while Ichigo winning every fight capriciously is indeed lame, beating bad guys is just a fictional trope. If you're getting mad that good guys are winning, then might as well be mad that there any villains at all. (At the very least being weak in OP has consequence. Ace and Whitebeard. SS gets trumped who do they lose? Sasakibe.)

As for Luffy not finding One Piece... Length isn't synonymous with stretching out a story. Give a reasonable explanation as to why it's being dragged? Most everything fits well within the premise set up in the first chapters of the series. Maps and routes were given, detailing each island they'd have to pass to get to Raftel. The most "filler" arc they've had would probably the Davy Back arc and that was only a few chapters. (But even still DB introduced Aokiji/Robin's past) It's be like Odysseus skipping over Circe/sirens/etc and just magically appearing back at Ithaca. The journey is long and arduous for a reason.

you really dont see my point att all.
i never said i was looking for character development, i was just saying that neither of them has any and therefore i think its bad to use no characted development in one series to say its worse than the other... its kinda like saying i prefer burgerplace a because burgerplace b is unhealthy

as for the drawn out part. i would explain what it was that bothered me but it was 6+ years ago that i dropped it because i felt it wassn't going anywhere so i dont remember exactly and am just explaining how i experienced it at the time.

Last edited by Akillaz at 4:46 am, Aug 13 2012

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"Sanity is for the weak"

Except One Piece actually spends time on their characters. They're not just empty shells like characters in Bleach.
You actually KNOW the characters as a "person". You know their history, their scars, their weakness, their reason to fight, their life's ambition.
They're not just "that guy with that cool sword powers" or "that guy with demon arms" or "that random fox man who seems to be the only fox-man in the whole damn story".

You can say that there are no character development in both, but one has developed characters and the other...well, I'm sure you already know.


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Everyday I'm tumblin'

Naw homie, you just don't see my point. The fact that you're clamoring about character development at all proves that you are looking for some sort of moving characterization. And while I said Bleach characterization is generally pretty poor, I didn't say One Piece has no characterization. I said that like Indiana Jones or the Adventures of Tintin, deep characterization isn't a requirement to make a series good. I even said that Oda can write personal conflicts well when he chooses to, citing Usopp's dissent, Hiruluk, and Calgara/Norland. The point is that stuff like this isn't the main focus of the series.

For example Robin only referred to the crew members by positions rather than names when she first joined the crew. But as the adventures went on she started to call Luffy by his name instead of captain. Then she'd eventually call Nami by her name instead of navigator. Chopper instead of doctor. So on and so forth. This was her opening up to a group of friends she never thought possible, in direct opposition to the 20 years of mistrust she had going on prior to meeting the Strawhats.

There's also Chopper, who's latest form is so ridiculously manly/monstrous. He stated that the reason his earlier heavy point was smaller was so that he could fit in more easily with humans. But now that he has a family that doesn't care about his personal appearance, so he lets his devil fruit go all out making him look like one giant muscle.

I never said One Piece had none. It's just peripheral to the series in the long run. And if you got tired of it, that's fine. I don't like Citizen Kane that much, but I'd never say Citizen Kane is a bad movie though. (Nor would I liken it to some clearly inferior movie and call it even. Also I'm not comparing CK's and OP's stories. It's just an example.)

Last edited by Unrequited at 5:31 am, Aug 13 2012

Spoken like a true homeboy
Bleach sucks now. Most people would agree it should have ended with Aizen. Kubo is just trying to squeeze out every bit of profit. The same happened with Star Wars (and Indiana Jones, kinda) and George Lucas. He got greedy and ended up ruining his franchise and his name with the more hardcore and original fans. Just like people will watch Bleach because it was really good at first. Kubo knows it's a money-maker just like Lucas knew his movies were. We're all hoping it could have topped the Aizen arc, but they had those retarded, in-between arcs where their swords became people and all that happy bullshit. That foreshadows the good arcs and makes the series an overall shitfest. Even the newest arc with Quincies sucks. It's like Kubo is trying way too hard now and it's just become pitiful. I cant stand reading the newest chapters because it ruins what good part the series had. My fandom for this series died along with Aizen and Kubo's common sense.

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-No longer do I quote great scholars, the famous, etc. Kids feigning wisdom ruined it.
--I wont type a post like a college report. If you don't read it just for that reason, you don't have to post why your hoity-toity ass refused to. I swear, so many people on this site are so full of themselves. A lot seem to think they always have an "intelligent and/or logical" point or show signs of a superiority complex. They never admit they're wrong. Maybe partially, but excuses abound! :\
-Stop mailing me about my comments. I don't read them.
/sigrant