I like manga. I like it a lot. I like the imaginative fictional world thousands of artists and writers have created. I like the fictional Japan. I don't, however, have any sort of admiration for the real Japan, the most homogenous country in the world, and likely the most racist, where conformity and "not making a fuss" is given the highest priority to the point that women are instructed to be quiet and take it if molested on a train and families whose daughters have been molested often don't press charges or report it to keep their records clean, the child-porn export capital of the world.

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate Japan or its people at all. I'm just not in love with it. And yet such a huge amount of Westerners that like anime and manga are, to the point that Japanophilia and otakuism are completely intertwined. Since when does admiration of an art form translate to love of its country of birth? Where do you see non-American superhero comic fans obsessing over hamburgers, Coca-Cola, and Hershey bars like otaku obsess over udon, ramune, and Pocky? Are there people that love Impressionism and follow French pop stars because of it? Or those that like Pearl S. Buck novels and therefore sign their name in characters, dress in qipao, and answer the phone with "Nihao?"

/kawaikunai rant

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Thanks for the rant.
I mainly like Japanese nature
and houses. That's pretty much it.
Dunno what wearing different coloured
striped socks has to do with it.

I know what you mean. I guess you could take it as a "the grass is always greener on the other side" sort of thing. Japan has their own problems, as everyone's own countries do it. It's just that we read manga and watch anime, which filter out those the negative aspects. And so by looking into those fictional worlds, we think that it's real, and therefore long for it. But in reality, it's actually not like that. I like Japan, but i would never want to live there.

There's just so many irrational people that can't open their eyes and accept that Japan isn't as wonderful as they think it is. They're just like Twilighters.

(it just blows my mind to see/hear people say stuff like "Kawaii desu ne~.")

[img]http://i.imgur.com/OkzQ4.png[/img]

Every country has their own problems, some you won't even find out until you actually are living there. With that said, what so bad about it? IF we all have problems is really any one country better than the other? I can say so.

I think to live in Japan would be a great experience, same with many other countries.

My country, is great if you live in Montreal, don't mind living a basic life, or a druggie; other than that it's pretty damn boring, especially for a teenager. At least Japan has many activities for students. Don't know how this is in other counties.

KennEH! you must live in Canada! Me too, I'm in Winnipeg though.

I agree with the whole "grass is greener on the other side" deal. A lot of people would rather be anywhere but home. Even I would rather be anywhere else because Winnipeg is really a boring place to live in, as much as I like it. So sometimes we escape by reading manga, and sometimes we get this warped view of other places being oh so great. I think that's really what happens.

But hey, I'll admit that I'm one of those people who loves udon, pocky and sushi and Japanese culture. Of course, I'm not blind to the fact that Japan does have it downsides: overcrowded-ness in big cities like Tokyo, pollution and conformity.

japans kool to me...i plan to visit it and maybe Taiwan. i jus want visit some sites i read bout in books and mangas and the ones i saw in japanese dramas and taiwanese dramas. so thts why i like japan. it has its problems and stuff but every place has tht.

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Quote from Revi_Malsaneta

I like manga. I like it a lot. I like the imaginative fictional world thousands of artists and writers have created. I like the fictional Japan. I don't, however, have any sort of admiration for the real Japan, the most homogenous country in the world, and likely the most racist, where conformity and "not making a fuss" is given the highest priority to the point that women are instructed to be quiet and take it if molested on a train and families whose daughters have been molested often don't press charges or report it to keep their records clean, the child-porn export capital of the world.

[snip for size's sake]

Actually, you make a lot of good points, and even speaking as someone who lives in Japan I agree with a lot of it, however, I would advise you to watch the hyperbole- for example women aren't literally "instructed to be quiet," and that's sort of an antediluvian stereotype at this point, not that there aren't plenty of problems with sexism. Racism is a bit more debatable- not whether or not things that we perceive as racist are present, but whether or not it actually qualifies as racism. As utterly absurd as it may be, I've actually read some pretty convincing papers that relate the issue to severe isolationism and unfamiliarity (not that I agree with them, but the point is just that it's not factually concrete). I'm not certain as to whether or not that's actually better, but it calls into question whether or not it's actually a malicious mindset (although concerning Korea and the Burakumin... well....)

Generally speaking, the issue with the otakuism/japanophilia crossover has a lot to do with the way Japan's culture has been exported for the last decade or two. In a lot of ways, otaku culture has been the number one trait representative of Japan to the lay audience in the outside world, and as such the people who find it attractive are going to place Japan on a pedestal. I daresay you'll see less of that specifically with otakuism in the future- that imagery is actually in decline, the current theory is that we'll see more prominent movements from the fashion industry in the future (i.e. nonsense like this from a couple months back.

Anyway, although I've strayed a lot from the point here, all countries have their problems. I don't think that those problems are really a suitable excuse to devalue culture- tradition is a separate identity from modern sociopolitical reality. I may not agree, for example, with the extent of the religious influence on Italian politics, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying Italian literature.

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Quote from Crenshinibon

I daresay you'll see less of that specifically with otakuism in the future- that imagery is actually in decline, the current theory is that we'll see more prominent movements from the fashion industry in the future (i.e. nonsense like this from a couple months back.

What is this shit?

Quote from Mamsmilk

Quote from Crenshinibon

I daresay you'll see less of that specifically with otakuism in the future- that imagery is actually in decline, the current theory is that we'll see more prominent movements from the fashion industry in the future (i.e. nonsense like this from a couple months back.

What is this shit?

Indeed. But expect to see more of it -_-;;.

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NightSwan also said that she wanted to peg me, once, but I'm not sure whether to take that as a compliment or a threat...

I lived in Japan for a year and had a great experience overall. I learned a lot about myself and about the differences between the US and Japan. There are things I think I like about living in both countries, but it took a longer time to get used to living in the US again when I came back. I'll probably be going back to live in Japan again sometime, and I don't quite understand this extreme anti-Japanophilia among some manga fans. I think you need to be careful not to look at Japanese culture in such a negative light... Doing that is really no better than the supposed Japan-worshippers (which I personally haven't actually seen for about 4 or 5 years). Japan is a fine place to live, even for a foreigner. It's not some kind of dream land or anything, but under the assumption that you know enough Japanese to get by and whatnot, then I can see living in Japan as preferable to certain people who are extremely hardcore about manga/anime/video games. Heck, I myself already miss being able to go to Comiket and get all the limited goods. :/

And a couple more things...

Since when does admiration of an art form translate to love of its country of birth?

If it was the comics and just the comics in general that someone liked, then they'd probably be reading stuff from more than just Japan. Various manga are obviously somewhat steeped in Japanese culture, which is quite a bit different from cultures of the west to a certain degree, so if someone only liked comics from Japan, they may want to learn more.

Where do you see non-American superhero comic fans obsessing over hamburgers, Coca-Cola, and Hershey bars like otaku

Well, you can get all of those pretty much anywhere in the world, so you don't have to be a superhero fan. >_>

Quote from Crenshinibon

Quote from Mamsmilk

Quote from Crenshinibon

I daresay you'll see less of that specifically with otakuism in the future- that imagery is actually in decline, the current theory is that we'll see more prominent movements from the fashion industry in the future (i.e. nonsense like [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8132726.stm]this[/url] from a couple months back.

What is this shit?

Indeed. But expect to see more of it -_-;;.

Oh the silverfish, be my strength.
Let there be a heat death on the sea
what prevents it from coming.

I love anime and manga so the school life world and your so called "ficitonal japan" is what got me jumping on the first chance i got to visit Tokyo. I stayed in Japan for about 2 weeks doing evangelism... It was seriously the best 2 weeks of my life. Although I couldn't read manga or watch much anime over there I loved it so much and now I am desiring to move there.

I really loved communicating with the people... I used mostly hand motions and the few words to convey messages like "manga suki?" "manga ichibon?" it was really fun and the people weren't as bad as some people tell me. I met a few break dancers on the train and one mama-san even bought some fruits for us while we were just walking to a near school.

My love for manga is what drove me to my love for japan and the japanese people... a lot... so quite different from your situation

[img]http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2777/4207527145_31aa2e1471_m.jpg[/img]

Sadly, a lot of manga and anime offer escapism (and sometimes not a good form of it). That's why they are attractive. I like some manga and anime, but I don't like everything ever produced by the industries. In fact, most ever produced are not liked by me.

I am actually thinking that one of the reasons that escapism is popular is because of the problems in Japanese society. That really doesn't surprise me. And a lot of child porn is "exported". That means those who watch the exported ones are mostly not Japanese. In this sense, they are not morally superior to the Japanese who watch them.

I am not an otaku nor Japanophile. Udon and sushi are just foods. I eat any food that's delicious and nutritious. And I don't like the sweets and soft drink you mentioned. I don't think they have anything to do with comic books. O_o Maybe those "Japanophiles" are just bored. Maybe it's also a form of escapism?

As to Japanese people, I won't judge without actually knowing and talking to real individuals.

I'm not Japanese, nor do I consider myself a "Japanophile." I know you don't mean to be, but your generalizations can be a bit offensive.

You are certainly entitled to your rant, and I understand your perspective. I've been in the same position. It's as simple as people being drawn to something they like or something other than the norm. And this may be a generalization in my part, but I'm assuming the the majority of these people are young.

Many have brought up good points (too lazy to quote). One thing I can assure you is that this is not strictly an only case. I spent the first 10 years of my life in a different country, I've seen firsthand the "admiration" or "love" of people for another country. Yes, I knew people who drank/obsessed over Coke just because they saw it in an American film. Or for the mere fact that because it is from America. Or the fascination for anything American for that matter.

The thing is, I can see the vexation, but if it's not hurting anyone, let them make a fool of themselves (ie Those girls in Crenshinibon's link. 🤣 ).

Quote from MasamiAkane

The thing is, I can see the vexation, but if it's not hurting anyone, let them make a fool of themselves (ie Those girls in Crenshinibon's link. 🤣 ).

... One of them was actually a guy -_-;;.

Anyway, aside from that:

@basecoat: I just want to touch on your comment on escapism for a moment if I may. Escapism is basically universally popular in all countries, it's not Japan-specific, just so we're clear (heck, look at all the trashy Dan Brown/Danielle Steele/whoever novels that sell loads every year), but the spread in otaku culture is due to both the target audience (otaku are obviously prone to escapism, and teenage girls to fantasy) and the medium itself- remember, comics are still generally seen as a "low" artform, it's easier to sell escapism than it is to sell literary comics. Most intellectuals prefer to avoid them.

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