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Post #647655
Member

11:34 pm, Jul 18 2014
Posts: 4


I got interested in trying out typesetting while reading some manga since there was so many recruitment pictures in them, so I tried it for the first time.

Result:
http://i.imgur.com/G5LTwrg.png

It's from:
Here

And I also took this test for Misty Rain Scans just for fun.

End Result:
1st Image:
http://i.imgur.com/VQKCTup.png

2nd Image:
http://i.imgur.com/HUaV0K1.png

3rd Image:
http://i.imgur.com/9NhhIWW.png

4th Image:
http://i.imgur.com/0lDNijs.png

MRS(Misty Rain Scans) Topic Link:
Here

Sorry for the links, but the site only supports specific image sizes. Anyways, please tell me what you think. smile

Post #647663
user avatar
Member

1:19 am, Jul 19 2014
Posts: 797


I've dabbled somewhat in typesetting, not much of an expert, but here's my suggestions. Which turned into an essay. Sorry. I mainly looked at the first image you posted.

-Typos
Two typos in "have you already eaten a bunch of those chocolate you recieved yesterday?" They should be chocolates and received, respectively. Also the "We are most of them, right?" should presumably be "we ate most of them, right?"

Of course you can't be blamed if you're replicating typos from the script the translator/proofreader gave you, but it's quite important to be vigilant about typographical errors because if you add in typos, either a) someone working QA will notice it and it'll have to be retypesetted, which is a hassle or b) the QA doesn't notice/there is no QA, and it will end up being released with typos intact. If it's noticed after it's been released and they want to do a v2 to fix it, that's even more hassle.

-Pixelated font
The "We are/ate most of them, right?" is really pixelated. It may be your graphics program got some settings mixed up to make it pixelated, so have a look around in the text/font menu - you seem to have used that font elsewhere without the pixelation problem so it's probably that. It's important to be familiar with your graphics program of choice so you can rectify problems like that. It's happened to me before, seemingly at random, but it's quite easily fixed.

-Poor font choice
"You have no intention of giving anything back, do you?" is in a very skinny font which becomes difficult to read at small sizes. (In any case it is best to use as few fonts as possible otherwise the constant variations are distracting - so I would have advised using the other lowercase font you used elsewhere.) It's a wide, short font which I don't think fits manga very well. Usually comics fonts are quite tall and kind of... compressed. They use space very efficiently so they can remain legible (having the main text in all caps plays a particular role in keeping things legible, so it's more the lowercase text you have to worry about) and fit well into bubbles and other small spaces, while also being aesthetically pleasing. Which leads me to...

-Aesthetics
I know you replicated the layout of this particular bubble from the Choco Banana scans page you linked to, but I think this is valuable advice.

One thing about the aesthetics is that it's nice to have some white space all around the inside of a speech bubble, and for the text to be widest in the middle of the bubble and narrowest at the top and bottom (i.e. conforming to the shape of the circle) - for that reason the "have you already eaten a bunch of those chocolates..." line is not very pleasing to the eye because it doesn't conform to the bubble shape and there's a lack of white space at each corner.

There's not always much you can do about that - firstly you can try rephrasing (e.g. to "You already ate all the candy you got [yesterday]?", possibly leaving out the word yesterday or hyphenating it because it's a pretty long word to have at the end), then if it's not possible to slim it down further without losing essential info, you might just consider using a smaller font size, or using your graphics program's text menu to alter the gaps between letters or lines, though you need to be consistent with that or it sticks out among all the other text. Sometimes translators don't take into account the bubble size and might give you dialogue which won't fit in the speech bubble, so that's something you'll have to take into account.

Note: just some general advice about hyphenating: it's best not to hyphenate in the middle of a syllable. So, yester-day is ok, since the hyphen is between syllables; yeste-rday or yesterd-ay looks weird. I didn't notice you do that wrong, but it's something I see a lot of typesetters do.

-Stroke
I see you've used a white stroke/border on some of the text which runs over parts of the art. That's very good! A lot of amateur typesetters don't use stroke which makes things hard to read. However, the stroke you used is very thin. It's ok for the "You have no intention" line because it's only a grey screentone in the background. But the stroke on the "Well, even if you say that..." line is not thick enough because it overlaps the black panel lines and makes it somewhat hard to read. It's particularly notable on the "if". A slightly thicker stroke would make that more legible.

Clone tool and typesetter vs. cleaner/editor
The example on the Chocobanana scans has used the clone tool to replicate the screentone beneath the "Well, whatever" line. You just erased the text, leaving a conspicuous white mark in the middle of the screentone. I'm actually kind of surprised that Chocobanana expect you to erase the text yourself - that's usually a cleaner's job. A cleaner or editor would also do any cloning and redrawing. Those are more complicated jobs than typesetting, and take more skill in your graphics program of choice and far more patience in yourself. (Redrawing and cloning are what I hated most when I was doing scanlation, and most of the reason I gave it up.) I would be leery of any team that expects you to do both because redrawing in particular is very difficult, and it doesn't look like the tests you took really required you to do either. If you want to learn to clone/redraw etc., there are some teams that will teach you or tutorials you can look at - or you can just find a group which has both cleaner and typesetter positions and then you won't have to worry about that, but you should make sure they also send you the uncleaned page as well as the clean one so you can see where the text goes and perhaps replicate the text and SFX styles, otherwise you might put the text in the wrong places.

-Sharp text, blurry art
I did glance at the MRS test pages - the most apparent thing is that text you've inputted looks very sharp compared to the art, which is typically smoother or blurrier. You can use your graphics program's text options to make the text a little less sharp so it fits in better. Hopefully if the scans are very good that shouldn't be a problem.

-SFX
Oh, and typically, writing "SFX: boom" instead of "boom" is usually reserved for asterisk notes placed outside the panel, or beside the Japanese SFX (though different groups have different policies on that really, follow theirs above my advice). If the Japanese SFX have been erased, you shouldn't really include the "SFX:" part, just the effect itself. The better typesetters will actually try to replicate the way the Japanese SFX were written, with a huge variety of fonts that give certain impressions - smooth, round fonts for soft sounds like water, big jagged fonts for loud sounds, crunching, etc. This will often mean using a stroke, and if it's a large enough sound effect it might include using a screentone for the body of the font and a solid colour for the stroke, or vice versa. It may also include text distorting effects to make the text narrower at the end or bulge in the middle or whatever. I know I said it's best to keep it to as few fonts as possible, but that's only mainly true for dialogue/monologues/etc. Sound effects are a whole other matter. A lot of typesetters hoard tons of fonts for that purpose. Your scanlation group might recommend certain fonts, or you can look for some yourself on free font sites.

In any case, I think you've done a good job for a beginner, and the fact you've even done these tests shows good motivation. A lot of groups are really lacking staff so I'm sure if you wanted to help many of them would be grateful to accept you - and as I said before, some groups might teach you to become a really good typesetter/editor. However my absolute number one advice is: you need to find a group that you like and that has deadlines, standards and methods that work for you, as well as other team members who have good communication skills and respect your skills, needs and opinions, otherwise you risk getting burned out or frustrated.

Your happiness is the most important thing, so don't be afraid to take a long time looking at different groups, or to leave a group that isn't working for you. I joined a group on a whim just because I wanted to see one of the manga they were releasing before it was released, and I ended up finding that they had terrible quality standards, ruined my translations without even discussing it with me, and communicated very poorly... it was a disaster.

I hope if you do decide to join a group that you find a great one and find typesetting a fun experience. Best of luck!

________________
世界のどこかに 必ず
キミの居場所が ある筈
Post #647680
Member

7:27 am, Jul 19 2014
Posts: 4


Quote from mogiks
I've dabbled somewhat in typesetting, not much of an expert, but here's my suggestions. Which turned into an essay. Sorry. I mainly looked at the first image you posted.

-Typos
Two typos in "have you already eaten a bunch of those chocolate you recieved yesterday?" They should be chocolates and received, respectively. Also the "We are most of them, right?" should presumably be "we ate most of them, right?"

Of course you can't be blamed if you're replicating typos from the script the translator/proofreader gave you, but it's quite important to be vigilant about typographical errors because if you add in typos, either a) someone working QA will notice it and it'll have to be retypesetted, which is a hassle or b) the QA doesn't notice/there is no QA, and it will end up being released with typos intact. If it's noticed after it's been released and they want to do a v2 to fix it, that's even more hassle.

-Pixelated font
The "We are/ate most of them, right?" is really pixelated. It may be your graphics program got some settings mixed up to make it pixelated, so have a look around in the text/font menu - you seem to have used that font elsewhere without the pixelation problem so it's probably that. It's important to be familiar with your graphics program of choice so you can rectify problems like that. It's happened to me before, seemingly at random, but it's quite easily fixed.

-Poor font choice
"You have no intention of giving anything back, do you?" is in a very skinny font which becomes difficult to read at small sizes. (In any case it is best to use as few fonts as possible otherwise the constant variations are distracting - so I would have advised using the other lowercase font you used elsewhere.) It's a wide, short font which I don't think fits manga very well. Usually comics fonts are quite tall and kind of... compressed. They use space very efficiently so they can remain legible (having the main text in all caps plays a particular role in keeping things legible, so it's more the lowercase text you have to worry about) and fit well into bubbles and other small spaces, while also being aesthetically pleasing. Which leads me to...

-Aesthetics
I know you replicated the layout of this particular bubble from the Choco Banana scans page you linked to, but I think this is valuable advice.

One thing about the aesthetics is that it's nice to have some white space all around the inside of a speech bubble, and for the text to be widest in the middle of the bubble and narrowest at the top and bottom (i.e. conforming to the shape of the circle) - for that reason the "have you already eaten a bunch of those chocolates..." line is not very pleasing to the eye because it doesn't conform to the bubble shape and there's a lack of white space at each corner.

There's not always much you can do about that - firstly you can try rephrasing (e.g. to "You already ate all the candy you got [yesterday]?", possibly leaving out the word yesterday or hyphenating it because it's a pretty long word to have at the end), then if it's not possible to slim it down further without losing essential info, you might just consider using a smaller font size, or using your graphics program's text menu to alter the gaps between letters or lines, though you need to be consistent with that or it sticks out among all the other text. Sometimes translators don't take into account the bubble size and might give you dialogue which won't fit in the speech bubble, so that's something you'll have to take into account.

Note: just some general advice about hyphenating: it's best not to hyphenate in the middle of a syllable. So, yester-day is ok, since the hyphen is between syllables; yeste-rday or yesterd-ay looks weird. I didn't notice you do that wrong, but it's something I see a lot of typesetters do.

-Stroke
I see you've used a white stroke/border on some of the text which runs over parts of the art. That's very good! A lot of amateur typesetters don't use stroke which makes things hard to read. However, the stroke you used is very thin. It's ok for the "You have no intention" line because it's only a grey screentone in the background. But the stroke on the "Well, even if you say that..." line is not thick enough because it overlaps the black panel lines and makes it somewhat hard to read. It's particularly notable on the "if". A slightly thicker stroke would make that more legible.

Clone tool and typesetter vs. cleaner/editor
The example on the Chocobanana scans has used the clone tool to replicate the screentone beneath the "Well, whatever" line. You just erased the text, leaving a conspicuous white mark in the middle of the screentone. I'm actually kind of surprised that Chocobanana expect you to erase the text yourself - that's usually a cleaner's job. A cleaner or editor would also do any cloning and redrawing. Those are more complicated jobs than typesetting, and take more skill in your graphics program of choice and far more patience in yourself. (Redrawing and cloning are what I hated most when I was doing scanlation, and most of the reason I gave it up.) I would be leery of any team that expects you to do both because redrawing in particular is very difficult, and it doesn't look like the tests you took really required you to do either. If you want to learn to clone/redraw etc., there are some teams that will teach you or tutorials you can look at - or you can just find a group which has both cleaner and typesetter positions and then you won't have to worry about that, but you should make sure they also send you the uncleaned page as well as the clean one so you can see where the text goes and perhaps replicate the text and SFX styles, otherwise you might put the text in the wrong places.

-Sharp text, blurry art
I did glance at the MRS test pages - the most apparent thing is that text you've inputted looks very sharp compared to the art, which is typically smoother or blurrier. You can use your graphics program's text options to make the text a little less sharp so it fits in better. Hopefully if the scans are very good that shouldn't be a problem.

-SFX
Oh, and typically, writing "SFX: boom" instead of "boom" is usually reserved for asterisk notes placed outside the panel, or beside the Japanese SFX (though different groups have different policies on that really, follow theirs above my advice). If the Japanese SFX have been erased, you shouldn't really include the "SFX:" part, just the effect itself. The better typesetters will actually try to replicate the way the Japanese SFX were written, with a huge variety of fonts that give certain impressions - smooth, round fonts for soft sounds like water, big jagged fonts for loud sounds, crunching, etc. This will often mean using a stroke, and if it's a large enough sound effect it might include using a screentone for the body of the font and a solid colour for the stroke, or vice versa. It may also include text distorting effects to make the text narrower at the end or bulge in the middle or whatever. I know I said it's best to keep it to as few fonts as possible, but that's only mainly true for dialogue/monologues/etc. Sound effects are a whole other matter. A lot of typesetters hoard tons of fonts for that purpose. Your scanlation group might recommend certain fonts, or you can look for some yourself on free font sites.

In any case, I think you've done a good job for a beginner, and the fact you've even done these tests shows good motivation. A lot of groups are really lacking staff so I'm sure if you wanted to help many of them would be grateful to accept you - and as I said before, some groups might teach you to become a really good typesetter/editor. However my absolute number one advice is: you need to find a group that you like and that has deadlines, standards and methods that work for you, as well as other team members who have good communication skills and respect your skills, needs and opinions, otherwise you risk getting burned out or frustrated.

Your happiness is the most important thing, so don't be afraid to take a long time looking at different groups, or to leave a group that isn't working for you. I joined a group on a whim just because I wanted to see one of the manga they were releasing before it was released, and I ended up finding that they had terrible quality standards, ruined my translations without even discussing it with me, and communicated very poorly... it was a disaster.

I hope if you do decide to join a group that you find a great one and find typesetting a fun experience. Best of luck!



Thanks for pointing out the weaknesses in my typesetting and also the mistakes I've made. Those are some very good pointers. smile

Post #647682
user avatar
Member

7:54 am, Jul 19 2014
Posts: 797


I'm glad you appreciated my advice, but quoting my entire mile long screed may have been a bit much laugh

Anyway, it seems to me that if you want to do more practice other than group typesetting tests, you can find plenty of raw manga via Google, and use fan translations or the text from existing scanlations for the actual typesetting. If you use someone else's translation though, you shouldn't share or release your efforts without their permission.

You might also get some great feedback if you actually submit the tests you did to their respective groups smile

________________
世界のどこかに 必ず
キミの居場所が ある筈
user avatar
Member

8:21 am, Jul 19 2014
Posts: 45


I am a typesetter for Evil Flowers, so I can also help give some advice. I quickly glanced over the pointers that Mogiks gave you and most of them were good. I'm going to give my own pointers, though I might end up repeating a few things that Mogiks said.

Shape

The shape of the font is very important. Mogiks covered most of this in his/her explanation of Aesthetics. I'll add on to a bit. As Mogiks said, the goal to make the text as round as possible. The most ideal shape is actually called "diamond" shape. It's okay if your text does have a more squarish look to it, but that is more ideal with the boxes that are usually used for narration. The shape that should be avoided the most is "hourglass" shape. This is the shape you get when you have a lot of text on top, like one word in the middle, and then a lot of text on the bottom. "That you will come see me tonight" on this page: http://i.imgur.com/HUaV0K1.png is a good example of that.

Centering

Another big thing about text is that it has to be centered in the bubble, box, etc. Text that is not centered in the bubble can make the page unappealing to the eye. One thing that can help with centering the text by making a text box instead of using the lines when using the PS text tool. Though after a while of practicing you can just basically eyeball it.

Font Sizes

Font size is very, very important. Mogiks also talked about this when he/she mentioned that it's important to have as much white space as possible in the bubble. This is true; however, you can have TOO MUCH white space by making the font too small. This is why it is important for the TSer to look at the raws. It is so that they can determine what size the font needs to be. For most manga/manhwa/manhua, you are not going to use the same size throughout the chapter. You are going to have to change the size of the font almost constantly. This is especially true for SFXs. SFXs can be really small, or really, really big.

Font Color

Font color, believe it or not, can also be quite important. And when I say "color," your only choices are black, white, and gray. There are times in which you will have to change the color of the font. The font will not be black throughout the chapter. Gray, for example, is used for thoughts and sometimes narration boxes. Fonts can also be white, but this is usually the floating thoughts (ones not in a bubble or box of any sort) that are on black backgrounds. There is also a chance of a SFX being white with a black outline. This is another reason to look at the raws while typesetting.

Font Choice

I know Mogiks talked about this, but I'm just adding onto it. For SFXs, again look at the raws. Try to pick the closest font you can to what the original SFX looked like. There are also going to be times when you need to change font to fit the mood. For example, this page here: http://i.imgur.com/VQKCTup.png. When the monster is talking, a more "evil" or "menacing" font would be better. Also, in the case of this page: http://i.imgur.com/9NhhIWW.png. The "what" is too small and it should bolded. Usually the diamond/squarish bubbles like that or spike bubbles means that the character is yelling, screaming, etc. and needs to be represented by bolding the text or even using a font like "Yikes."


Overall you didn't do too bad. If you practice a bit, you're sure to get better. You might even want to try to find a group that will train you and give you a mentor so you can learn what mistakes you make often and correct them. Good luck.

Also, this is a tutorial that EF recommends for everyone who is planning to become an editor/cleaner/typesetter and is just starting out: http://www.insidescanlation.com/etc/The-Idiots-Guide-to-Editing-M anga/guide/main.html

Last edited by Angelrose6 at 5:54 pm, Jul 19 2014

Post #647702
Member

1:25 pm, Jul 19 2014
Posts: 4


Thanks for your great pointers! I'll keep on practicing.

Post #647738 - Reply to (#647686) by Angelrose6
Member

12:01 am, Jul 20 2014
Posts: 4


Quote from Angelrose6
I am a typesetter for Evil Flowers, so I can also help give some advice. I quickly glanced over the pointers that Mogiks gave you and most of them were good. I'm going to give my own pointers, though I might end up repeating a few things that Mogiks said.

Shape

The shape of the font is very import ...


I think I have fixed those, but it's useful to have someone with actual experience to judge it.

Here is my second try:
1st Image:
http://i.imgur.com/U7QuNJZ.jpg

2nd Image:
http://i.imgur.com/WPrBEiL.jpg

3rd Image:
http://i.imgur.com/K9tOeUG.jpg

It's from Turtle.Paradise Scanlations.
Here's the topic link: Here

Again, sorry for the links, but you can read them at the very least! I'm also looking for more pointers. smile

user avatar
Member

11:06 am, Jul 20 2014
Posts: 45


Page One

This, I'm going to critique the best I can, since I can't look at the raw for reference. I won't say anything about the SFXs because I don't know what the originals look like. Though, it would have been great if you used a variety of fonts for those even if you didn't know what they looked like.

Panel 1: With the connected bubbles, see how "they're" is crossing over into the second one? That's a big no-no. The text must never cross over into the next bubble. There's kind of an invisible boarder that you have to make in your head to keep this from happening. For "Whaddo ya think they’re there for? to keep us from escapin’, that’s what." it would be best to make that more squarish in shape because there's not a lot of space. So the best way to do this is to split it up like this (the "/" will mean that it's a new line): "Whaddo / ya think / they’re / there for? / to keep / us from / escapin’, / that’s / what." Personally, that's how I would separate the text. And given the size of the page, it would be at 24px.

Panel 2: "For-dress? For-dee-dor-dess~" needs to be reshaped and made a bit smaller. You don't want the text taking up too more space. Even if you get the text the same size as the original raw, if it's too cramped in the bubble, make it smaller.

Panel 5: Same thing with the text. It looks too big. There is also a typo with "powersh." So, in this case, if you come across a typo or an awkward sentence, there are ways that you, the typesetter, can handle this. You can: 1. Contact the proofreader of the chapter or the head proofreader and ask to the make the change; 2. when you turn in the chapter, leave a note for the QCer; or 3. Don't do anything and just let the QCer take care of it. I know that each group may have different policies on this. For EF, you never change grammatical mistakes without consulting the proofreader or head proofreader. Though, the group I was in previously did expect you to make the changes without asking or telling anybody. So, just check up on that.

Panel 6: Reshape "No, But I DO have a weird ghost following me around all the time…" Also, since the "DO" is in all caps, that means that there is emphasis put on it. You show this by bold/italicizing it.

Panel 7: The same with "YOU." Emphasis, so bold/italicize that. The "Owiewowowow! Shtoppit! Abuse!" needs to be reshaped.

Panel 8: The middle "Abuse" bubble needs to be reshaped. The one in the bottom left corner needs to be resized, so it's not going over into the middle one.

Also, as for the size of this page. The height was 1600px, which is pretty large in my opinion, but most groups have their preferences regarding size. For example, EF uses 1200px height. So the size of our text is usually between 12px-14px for standard dialogue.

Page Two

Panel 3: You should have used the "Yikes!" font for the bubble. For the SFX, you should have used a block letter type font. Also, you would need to use a screen tone overlay on it and give it a black stroke.

Panel 4: The screaming is too big and this would be a special case of where you find a font that matches the text in the bubble. Normally you bold/italicize font, but this is a special case. Also take note of the fact that the SFX in the background does not have a translation. This is called a Missing Translation or MTL. You need to get in touch with the translator to translate it for you, or if your group has a thread for MTLs, post it in there.

Panel 5: Normal bold/italics font would be better.

Panel 7: Should have used a skinny round font for the SFX.

Panel 8: Should have used a font like "Edo" or a font that has a brushy look to it.

Panel 9: The SFX is a rather difficult one. There are many things that you would need to do. One, you should have found a more block letter font for it. Two, you will have to use a screen tone overlay and a black stroke. Three, this SFX requires a mask, so you can make it look like it is behind the character.

As a side note, never use font that is mostly used for dialogue (Wild Words, Anime Ace, Manga Temple, Mankinoid, etc.) for SFXs.

Page Three

Panel 3: Use a different font for the SFX. It should be white with a black stroke.

Panel 4: The floating text should be moved down a bit and to the left. It shouldn't be touching the boarder or the edge of the text bubble. Also, it should be gray. The type of gray should be something like "#666666" or "#676767." With the connecting bubbles, the text on the left is going into the right bubble. Make it smaller and reshape.

Last edited by Angelrose6 at 11:11 pm, Jul 20 2014

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