Now the topic has turned in to abusive relationships and domestic violence. I think that's really something else.

In a lot of shoujo, the characters even barely spoke to or knew each other before the guy starts molesting or raping her. It can hardly be called "love". This is something unique represented in shoujo manga. O_o It's not the same as abusive relationships or domestic violence.

Bottom line: such stories are like hentai but not explicit. They need to make a scenario just to have smut/sex, no matter how stupid it is. And traditionally women are supposed to be submissive - that's what you often see them as. It's completely pointless and readers are just supposed to read for the smut. It also serves the "bad boy" fetish so why not?

There are many more interesting/realistic and more humorous ways to write smut if they have to do that in their works. But a lot of mangakas seem to be unable to think of anything less boring and stupid. I'd say stay away from those mangas. Real life couples' lives are far more interesting. However, I could be wrong since in the cultural context of Japan, common couple dynamic is probably not what I assume from my own perspective. Maybe the mangakas do lack real life material to write good smut.

It's probably cause you are viewing it from the wrong side. Japan may be a modern country and all that but it is still extreamly male dominated. Females can have opinions and be strong, work, whatever, but at the end of the day they are expected to go home, cook, clean have kids and smile. Passive females are seen as attractive, while in the west, female are expected to have a backbone.
I for one have never understood how molesting is a problem. If I was suddenly felt up on a train packed full of people, I wouldn't quitely stand there or passivly protest, that guy would be going down, and I wouldn't have to fear anything because I would be surrounded by people. I wouldn't put up with that crap.
I guess it's just an "ideal" of their country. Just don't actually try any of that crap on a real female because she will bite off your tongue (I've been tempted).

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A bit off-topic but as I know, the mainstream Japanese society does criticize sexual harassment in trains. They even have women-only trains to prevent that.

The molesting in shoujo mangas, however, serves more as a fetish or fantasy than anything else.

Yeah ive noticed them form a case of Stockholm syndrome towards the people who molest them.

[img]http://i53.tinypic.com/2m6le7r.gif[/img]

Cause it sells and it's just a fictional story line. You either like it and read it or you don't like and don't read it. Its kinda that simple scratches head that's just my opinion.

Those kinds of manga are messed up, man. :[

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Bottom line: such stories are like hentai but not explicit. They need to make a scenario just to have smut/sex, no matter how stupid it is.

I don't know, my problem isn't the story, but the fact that they are to be sold to (young) girls. When I am reading a story about a guy who's abusing his girl and he gets away with it, then I think that's not right - as it should be common sense. But it's getting risky if there are some girls out there who, by reading that stuff, get the impression that it's ok if they get "punished" by their boyfriends?

Well, maybe I'm painting black here...

In a way such stories are more dangerous like hentai, as most hentai is just unrealistic. What I'm searching for is a reasonable story, where the guy abuses the girl but then has to bear the consequences. (Never seen such a story, maybe I should ask in the "looking for" section...)

Cause it sells and it's just a fictional story line. You either like it and read it or you don't like and don't read it.

Whereas I have to ask myself what type of girls are buying that stuff, and for what purpose? Because there is a hot bishie in it or what? That's really stupid. Then I'd rather had them read some of that incredibly unrealistic love stories.(Lol, I sound like an old geezer ^^)

I'd say selling stories like that as shoujo is a step in the wrong direction. When they are grown-up they can read what they like but until then I would like to check what stories my children are reading. I think the "power of manga" is being underestimated in that context.(sounding even more like an old geezer...)

The sad thing is, they are made inexplicit so that they can be sold to young girls. If they are as explicit as hentai, the young audience will be restricted from reading them. In a way, they have a similar nature as hentai though they look vastly different. To put it simply, hentai is (supposed) to satisfy male physical needs while smut/romance is like "emotional porn" for females. Both can be unrealistic while known clearly by it's audience. You know hentai is so unrealistic but you probably can't resist looking at the big-breasted/supposedly "sexy" women. Same goes to girl audience and the bishies with their "love" that's so "deep". 🤣

I don't think it's as simple as blaming mangakas and publishers who are greedy for money and make sensational fantasies to attract young girls. Some girls do like them, otherwise they won't keep making such stories. 😮 Why aren't guys' manga made this way? It's because they are not attractive to guys (well, there's rape in hentai but it's done completely differently). Simple as that. There's a long story of gender and culture behind those and I am not going into that. Fantasy/porn is attractive, and probably even more so to a younger audience. Even if those were restricted to adults only, I am sure young people would still find their ways to them. If you, as a mangaka or publisher, don't make it, somebody else will and make the money that should have been made by you. You just can't stop all those. I am not blaming hentai as it's supposed to be for adults only. What can be sold to (young) boys can be just as stupid as what's sold to girls, as a lot of ecchi is.

What can be sold to (young) boys can be just as stupid as what's sold to girls, as a lot of ecchi is.

I don't think you can compare smut with ecchi. Shounen ecchi really is (very) soft porn, like showing panties and silly stuff like that or a naked body, but that's it. But that shoujo smut manga dealing with abuse/rape even if it was inexplicit is definitely playing in another league.

Is that abuse/rape thing in shoujo is probably the counterpart of action/violence(w/o sexual context) in shounen? But then the villain in shounen usually get's punished, but the "villain" in shoujo doesn't .....

Nah, it's not just nudity. Western media targeting guys also have fan service, such as Bond girls or even some nudity. But those girls just wear normal sexy clothing and are presented in a provocative and beautiful way. It's usually nothing controversial.

Some ecchi situations can be degrading and humiliating to women, like being groped by perverted guys, those losers and perverts being regarded as normal guys should be like and heroes (at least that's what I get from guys' manga), girls clothes ripped off by some supernatural power in public, swimsuit tops snatched away by underwear thief who has supernatural powers, constant talk about who's breasts are larger or should be larger, "innocent" tsundere girls made embarrassed, etc, etc, to name a few. I think those are harmful but they are probably made normalized in Japan as it's a different society. And why do girls have to constantly show their panties? I don't see the appeal of that as being "sexy". As I know, guys having girls' panty fetish is probably made normalized in Japan and manga too. I think it's harmful because the message I get from such representation of women is that women are mindless objects and disrespectable. I certainly wouldn't teach my son such a message.

Perhaps the forbidden (by the neutral mainstream society) is exciting. In a way, stupid guys' ecchi is similar to abuse in shoujo - reinforcing certain deep-rooted gender ideas shared by different sexes within themselves (in the context of Japan). So that's why some readers get pleasure from them. Escapism is where otaku cultures came from.

Yeah, villains should be punished. But those guys who abuse and rape are not villains in shoujo manga's context. Like someone said, such is attractive in a soap opera way. They are troubled heroes in a soap opera. That's why they don't get punished.

Although I personally can't stand romances where either partner is violent or abusive, I can understand why quasi-rape shoujo smut is more easily "forgiven," since the guy being forceful isn't normally supposed to be a serial rapist or criminal. Essentially, he is a "good" guy who is so overcome with attraction to the heroine that he loses his morals. Because the "I did it out of love" explanation rings hollow against the real-life motivations behind violence against women, I don't think it's healthy for young girls to fantasize about violence in a relationship, but readers probably (hopefully?) know that there is a difference between the two scenarios.

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Reading: Kingdom, Sangokushi, Historie

I often compare girls' smut mangas to guys' adult/seinen harem mangas where loads of hot girls go after one plain/ugly/loser guy for no reason and want to have sex with him. Both are not as explicit as hentai, yet unrealistic and have the main purpose of creating sex situations in the stories. I think they are pretty similar in nature to serve as fantasies for both sexes though their scenarios are very different. I believe such a difference is caused by gender difference. Sadly, violence, molesting and abusing in romance just sell to girls.

Sadly, violence, molesting and abusing in romance just sell to girls.

I don't get why stuff like that is selling.

In shounen manga I've read, when it's the case that the main character gets bullied or something like that, basically you get to know how to overcome such situations - more or less. Therefore in a way such stories have a morale.

But I've never seen a female main character in a shoujo smut manga resisting or even complaining about being harassed by the "evil" male. Even worse, there are some stories where a good guy tries to "rescue" the girl but the girl stays with the evil one. (There is this one sentence I have in mind: " I know I would be happier with you, but still I love him and not you"). What's the morale in that stories?

Or is it simply explainable with cultural difference?

Quote from Bloodkite

Or is it simply explainable with cultural difference?

I guess so. Cultural and gender differences are the major factors. "I know I would be happier with you, but still I love him and not you" sounds really soap-opera-y and dramatic, therefore attractive to some people (my guess). But it's really a cliche now. Many people do like cliches. It doesn't matter what kind of cliches they are or in what genre or medium. They do have fans. If you think of any cliche (I mean any) in the world, it's not that hard to understand.

Hot guys desperately wanting a girl even if it's rape is not really that much different from loads of hot girls going after one guy, because they both make the protagonist some sort of a center of attention. The only difference is that the first scenario emphasizes "love" and the intention of forming a committed relationship while the guys' scenario emphasizes having as many opportunities to have sex with women as possible (because that's what guys are supposed to want).

Quote from base_coat

Hot guys desperately wanting a girl even if it's rape is not really that much different from loads of hot girls going after one guy, because they both make the protagonist some sort of a center of attention.

Umm, well in my opinion there are better ways to express such affection as rape ^^ I think for such a serious issue, rape is way too trivialized here. (Makes me kinda sick, to read casually written stories about this...)

But then, I also hate shounen stories about perverts. You kinda get the impression that you are superior if you humiliate girls...

Soo, I think it's kind of the same as with the tv shows in my country: noone would produce such crap, if there weren't any demand for it. (Gosh, something is wrong with the world...)