The rhetorical question was the question I asked you, when you were accusing others of doing what you had just done. As proven by those quotes in that post.

This discussion started by the thread starter was not a question of science or statistics as it was visceral, but it's good if you want to shed light on them regarding the subject. What you wrote can be found in works discussing the benefits and disadvantages of such a practice. Perhaps that should have been your main point. It would have been a good one. Especially, when your first post descended into mostly the bashing other people than it ever did about the merits or flaws of such a lifestyle. Why is it that after you were called out you proceed to try and present yourself as the sensible and measured individual referencing scientific studies? When your first post was all about labeling other people and casting them off as "pretentious hipsters."

Maybe if your initial post had been different I would lend credence to your latest post. However, this comes off as trying to save face behind claimed expertise after indulging on what had just been condemned on your part. I don't doubt there are some staunch practitioners that border on the radical; but are there any peer-reviewed papers on the statistics of vegans that are "Moral Authoritarians" and "pretentious hipsters" or was that just a liberty taken on your part? What was it, "quite a few," huh?

Last edited by ThirySixChambers at 6:29 am, Oct 8 2014

U.S.-centric post ahoy! If you aren't from the U.S., don't worry, I'm not talking about you.

Personally, it isn't the vegans in general I dislike, it's the white vegans who tend to be extremely holier-than-thou about their veganism. You know the type: constantly trying to force other people to convert to veganism, talking about how veganism has changed their life/made them more healthy, about how it's the greatest thing ever to be vegan, and if you're not vegan, then you're an awful, horrible person.

Now, of course, not all vegans are like that. Nor are all white vegans like that. I'm specifically talking about "white veganism," not as a stereotype but as a widespread problem in relation to white/class privilege and entitlement.

The thing is: it's all well and good to be vegan. Yeah, go be as vegan as you want! And, you should have a right to be able to go to a restaurant and order something that's vegan. I respect your desire to be vegan, regardless of your reasons.

But, the problem is that so many white vegans feel like it's their duty to try and make everyone else vegan too, and that's wrong on several levels. On the lowest level, forcing someone to adhere to your own personal choices is never a good thing. On a more societal level, there are a variety of factors that can prevent people from being vegan that most vegans don't even consider when they're condemning those who eat meat.

1. Quite simply, health reasons can prevent someone from being vegan. I don't think I need to expand on this anymore. This is usually the most accepted "excuse" for not being vegan.

2. Cultural reasons also play a role. As a Chinese-American, almost every single dish I eat contains meat. It is just something that happens. It is not something I can just magically go "I'm not eating this anymore!" simply because someone else told me not to. It is an expected part of my social world that I consume meat with my family. I'm not changing/denying my own culture just for someone else's satisfaction. It's just not happening.

3. Veganism is expensive. The government is not kind to vegans, I admit that, nor is it kind to our own health. Vegetables, especially organic ones, are often priced higher than unhealthy alternatives (the prime example being how cheap junk food is). And there are no subsidies in place to help alleviate this burden from the consumers (or the producers). Now, I'm not saying that every vegan is rich, but I doubt there are any vegans that're poor. Because if you're working like 18-hour days just to make ends meet, there's really no time to consider what you're eating is healthy or not, especially if it's all you can afford. So, yeah, veganism tends to be elitist in this respect too.

4. A lot of vegans cite the ~environment~ and ~saving animals~ as reasons for their veganism. I respect that. But an equal amount of them seem to act as if they're doing the greatest act EVER. As if converting to veganism is the best thing you can do for the sake of the planet. And, it's, well, not. Agriculture, not animal husbandry, is what's degrading our environment the most right now. 90% of environmental degradation comes from agriculture! And not just environmental degradation, but also human exploitation. Cheap labor is used on many commercial farms, etc. etc.

(Of course the meat-packing industry also has this bad stuff going on, but turning away from that and going on to agriculture doesn't fix that problem at all. It's not a problem you can just ignore by not "buying into it" because you're buying into it regardless. It's a problem you have to dig out from the root--work at stopping exploitative labor rather than work at not using it. But I digress.)

And a lot of vegans just don't seem to realize this. It's as if they can't wrap their mind around the fact that, regardless of the food they eat, they're still harming our environment (and our people) in one way or another because the food industry as a whole is problematic. And many times this lack of understanding leads to some ignorant-as-heck statements that tell us to, say, stop eating honey because it "exploits bees" but completely ignores that the alternative, sugar, exploits the poor and destitute.

TLDR; the food industry (agricultural and meat) are extremely exploitative and problematic. the solution isn't simply to turn from one to another, but to address the problem of exploitative labor at its root. many white vegans tend to derail these conversations with talks of "don't eat meat!" because of their ignorance, which is the main problem I have with them.

Of course, as I said as a beginning, this post primarily targets a very vocal part of the vegan community, not veganism as a whole or as a lifestyle. Go ahead and be vegan! Just don't expect to come into a conversation and act as the authority on everything harmful to this world.

P.S. I do not appreciate, however, the amount of flack that vegans who don't try to convert people get when they admit they're vegans though. I definitely see that many people have a prejudiced view of them, and many times it is unwarranted. Of course, that doesn't detract from my aforementioned comments, as they're two separate (although complementary) issues, both of which we as a society have to address.

You answered your own question.

While this is true, it's also important to know/remember that meat production is much more agriculturally intensive than just crop production for human consumption - if you're growing soybeans which are then fed to cows which are then fed to people, it takes a lot more soybeans to provide an equal amount of human nourishment than if the soybeans are fed directly to people.

I've read several places recently that the biggest single thing individuals can do to help the environment is to eat less (or no) meat.

I've been vegetarian for almost 20 years, but I'm not vegan. At least not yet.

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"[English] not only borrows words from other languages; it has on occasion chased other languages down dark alley-ways, clubbed them unconscious and rifled their pockets for new vocabulary."
-James Nicoll, can.general, March 21, 1992

Since when is being vegetarian the norm?
Why would I even need a reason to not be vegetarian?
Right, I wouldn't and here is why:
We (at least the majority of people) are able to eat meat. So if anything, not doing what one is able to needs a reason. (That's why we have laws not to kill people and stuff)

As for the other question: Why do people some dislike religious people? Why do some people dislike republicans? Why do some people dislike foreigners?
We have enough people in the world to find some people to dislike anything. It's human nature to be skeptical of things one is not familiar with or that contradicts one's own taste or opinion.

What is the difference? Consequences. The church burned people for looking funny at them some hundred years ago, anti-foreigner jokes may get you fired, as can pretty much anything that endangers the public image of your company. What can vegans do if you throw some jokes at them? Throw back vegetables? Eating habits are deeply personal and cultural, and if you compare vegans to other kinds of those I doubt there would even be a big difference between them. Another thing is that a bigger group is a bigger target and veganism is an extreme black-white system. You are or you are not. Thus there are two big groups that automatically arise that contradict each other.

Also, as a lot of people said already, I'd rather have some jokes thrown at me as a vegan, than being called the bane of humanity for not being one. Why do some vegans dislike non-vegans? Not really hard to answer now, is it?

I'd go so far as to claim that anyone who publicly clings to the fact of being a vegan or a non-vegan is a hypocrite. Why would anyone care for your eating habits? I surely don't as long as you don't involve me with it and I don't see a reason for that unless I'm your chef!
Both sides are idiots but it's natural, humans are idiotic after all...

tl;dr: because humans live for conflicts

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I'm not a vegetarian, but my mom is (for religious reasons). i have no idea how people are arguing that it's more expensive to be vegetarian than to eat meat, being vegetarian/vegan does NOT mean you have to be a hippie and get all your produce from overpriced whole foods and organic co-ops and what have you. my mom gets all her produce wholesale from leftover stuff farmers couldn't sell to grocery stores and it's UNBELIEVABLY cheap. like she's always getting 10 lb boxes of stuff like beets and pineapples and tomatoes for only $4 and i'm like OMFG

for convenience and money purposes, i eat vegan/vegetarian most of the week because it's just easier. wake up, throw some rice in the rice cooker, beans in the slow cooker, go to work, come home, meal is done. i don't have to worry about defrosting and roasting a flipping chicken, that shit is too much trouble. honestly nowadays i only eat meat when i eat out or for special occasions.

other vegans/vegetarians don't bother me. i've heard of all these preachy vegans/vegetarians but i haven't met any. most i know are that way for religious reasons, which i respect and don't question. lots of restaurants nowadays have accommodations for vegans/vegetarians and its honestly not that hard to just steam some vegetables and boil some rice. big whoop. however when i tell a lot of people that i don't eat meat everyday some are like, floored. like i'm an alien. "OMG WHAT?! i could NEVER. cant you not afford it? i just LOVE my meat!" really? get a grip. it's not that big a deal.

personally i only eat poultry, and that's because i can't stand the taste/texture of other meats. i've always hated pork, can't STAND the smell of bacon, and seafood texture weirds me out. i know i'm a baby, but i don't care, less money i have to spend on salmon and filet mignon. lately im getting bored with just chicken, though, and honestly chicken only tastes good to me when cooked with a bunch of other veggies. i've considered going full vegetarian, but i still love ground chicken and turkey.

also lately i've become lactose intolerant ;_; meaning i pretty much go full vegan most of the week. except eggs. i enjoy eggs

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