As powerful as his inner circle is he is still dealing with whole armies, and as numerous as the Black Knights are they really can't win without Zero. If this was the case they should have been able to win during the first Black Rebellion. If they are going to actually win they really are going to have to gamble and have faith that Zero isn't just playing them for fools. Now they could all just decide to put down their arms but they will never be able to return to Japan or go to any Britannian territory. Besides there is the nuke that Schnizel has which is going to tip the whole balance of power, their numbers may simply not be enough to deal with such a weapon.

Zero/Lelouch couldn't have come as far as he has without Geass, or the Black Knights and the Black Knights could never have come as far as they have without Zero/Lelouch. If Lelouch/Zero was the type to just be using the Black Knights he wouldn't have displayed the emotion he did when Kallen got captured, he would have just bailed quickly. The Black Knights are going to be in for a great deal of soul searching.

lol@ the idea of an army soul-searching *pictures a group of black knights following the same route as the guy from Honey and Clover*. -_-;;, damn imagination.

The Black Knights now have other capable people than Lelouch, so saying they'll lose without him is a little odd. I mean, Xing-ke is actually smarter than him and stronger than Suzaku, he just has that terminal illness weakness. Toudou, Diethard, and Co are all capable, and I'm sure that the newly joining countries will have capable people as well. The bomb is a lot to deal with, but I doubt it'll be used twice. Once again, I'm not sure Lelouch will care all that much about helping them. It increasingly seems to be the case that he'll be fighting to regain what he can of the things that were stolen from him (CC, Kallen, Nunnally, Suzaku, Shirley, etc. etc.) and destroying Charles is more important to him than destroying Britannia as a result. I don't think he and an elite inner circle would fight the entire Britannian army, but assaulting a location with a Twilight Door and entering the Sword of Akasha is entirely plausible.

@kwan: As much as I'd love that to happen, that won't be the case. The kiss worked the first time because CC's kiss in the first season was intended to seal Lelouch's memory more than anything else (much to my dismay, Taniguchi said so, so it's true). Without the inital seal on her own memories, a kiss on its own won't do anything.

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NightSwan also said that she wanted to peg me, once, but I'm not sure whether to take that as a compliment or a threat...

What Zero is creating is far from complete and Xing-ke by himself could never hope to complete what Zero is building just as Zero could not build this new axis of power without Xing-ke. It's really not as simple as just sticking someone into a leadership position. If C.C. was not who she was (ignoring her powers) do you think that Zero could have pulled off some of the things he did? Keep in mind that Xing-ke does not have alot of time left. Being a capabe executive is not nessecarily the only requirement for this whole thing to be a success.

If you reread my post, Xing-ke is one of many examples. There are plenty of capable people in the organization. Without Lelouch it couldn't have been built up to this point, but there are enough now to succeed without him. It's not as though he's the only genius in the world. You're right- it isn't a matter of sticking someone into the leadership position, but at the same time Lelouch isn't some sort of godly being that is absolutely necessary to create victory. He's just a particularly intelligent and determined protagonist that happened to have the Geass when it was still necessary. At this point there are other methods of winning, be it Toudou, or Xing-ke, or whoever else comes up with them.

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You are kind of boring - Blackorion
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NightSwan also said that she wanted to peg me, once, but I'm not sure whether to take that as a compliment or a threat...

I'm with several of the others on this. Considering how quickly the Black Knights fell last time with the loss of Zero... They may hold out longer this time, but in no way should anyone think that the Black Knights will stand firm when one of its key supports is knocked out from under them. This doesn't just refer to Zero, but to any who are pivotal figures in the rebellion.

They're no longer a rebellion, but a collection of allied nations (or will be, by next episode). While a simple rebellion would fall, every non-Britannian nation with a military won't fall if Lelouch disappears. It's a unified front now, not something so small.

EDIT: also, they lost the Black Rebellion because Lelouch abandoned them in the middle of battle. Toudou was incapable of doing anything without knowledge of the full scope of the battle, one of the holy swords even said as much.

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Reviews of my Work:
You are kind of boring - Blackorion
Congratulations! Ur an asshole! - tokyo_homi
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NightSwan also said that she wanted to peg me, once, but I'm not sure whether to take that as a compliment or a threat...

I wish he'd just die now

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There is more to the whole equation than just genius or even physical ability, alot of this has to do with talent. It's not just that Zero is around people who are geniuses in their own right, he is surounded by people with talent. For a real world example look at the scientists Hitler had working under him and how much they affected America's status in the world when the United States acquired them. It certainly was not the case that the Soviet Union did not have geniuses or talented men working for them. It just turned out that the abilities of those working for the states were superior to theirs among other things. Two people may posses the same level of intelligence but they may not posses the same level of talent or think of things in exactly the same way.

I often wonder how America would have turned out if Lincoln had survived to work on reconstructing America. Would he have allowed the riots that occured after the end of the fighting to continue? Would he have used the millitary to actually let black people vote etc?

In this case, I'm not certain that talent applies. It's already been tested and proved that others around Lelouch are extremely talented leaders in their own right. Once again, Lelouch is not irreplaceable- he's just a person who stands on the world stage. There are other, just as capable and talented and intelligent members. We can use all the words you want to describe it, but that fact will remain virtually the same. I understand what you're talking about in terms of real world application (although I would argue that some of your examples are faulty because they can easily be explained by external circumstances), but this isn't a situation where one person is doing everything any longer. Lelouch, even as Zero, is not going to be allowed to rule the world.

Even if you don't like the fact that this is based on partially unconfirmed spoilers, look at it from a literary perspective: what's the point of showing soldiers losing faith in him? What possible reason could you have to show that if there isn't going to be a faction split of some sort, or at least large scale disagreement with Zero?

Regardless, this debate is pointless to continue. As things stand now, 17, 18, and 19 should all prove me to be correct. You can obviously choose to believe what you want, but at this point I would be extremely surprised if it wasn't painfully obvious what was going to happen by the end of 17.

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You are kind of boring - Blackorion
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NightSwan also said that she wanted to peg me, once, but I'm not sure whether to take that as a compliment or a threat...

Meh Euphemia had pretty much fucked Zero with the SAZ and look how that turned out. I think you are putting too much stock in the abilities of about five or six people to accomplish what Lelouch is trying to accomplish. Schnizel's nuke is going to turn everything upside down. A weapon that can just take out an entire city in one shot is nothing to scoff at. The whole world is almost going to be forced to bow down before that kind of power; unless they can pull a simillar weapon out of their ass instanty. It would be madness to split up given the situation Schnizel is about to put the world into. This is not the first time that members of the Black Knights have disagreed with Zero or suspected him of less than above board tactics. Ohgi and a few others suspect Zero of purposely destroying the JLF carrier, then there is the incident during the first Black Rebellion. The first incident with the JLF was handled by the SAZ mess, the second problem kind of disappeared on Kallen's word.

Now if someone told them that Zero was responsible for the SAZ incident that would be an entirely different animal.

You say lelouche isn't going to rule the world... Of course not. In fact I don't think any nation is going to be standing at the top. If there is a single organization at the top at the end of this season.. It will simply mean there's another season in store. The ending as far as the geo-political structure goes will most likely entail nations around the world rising up for independence against whomever their oppressors are (especially Brittania.) In fact, we may not even see peace, just a whole string of independences.

You're right to some extent Cren, the Black Knights are losing their 'rebellion' status. At this point they've become a movement, a movement that is based (still) around Zero. I believe that every single Japanese Black Knight wearing a Zero uniform was proof of that. I imagine that in the next few episodes it will move on from being a movement, however, when this happens the Black Knights will die. Instead they'll form something else, as all rebellions do. There are only a select few [successful] uprisings that retain their name/structure after they are established. I'd actually say that at this point soldiers haven't been showing a loss of faith in Zero, but their faith is being tried. There's a big difference.

It is important to note that the focus of the Geass throughout the story has been that it is the power of Kings. This would lead us to believe that Zero would lead in the future. You (Cren) say this is not true. Once more I'll reinforce my agreement, seeing as they keep saying that the path of Kings is also the path of loneliness. It is clear that Lelouche is desiring more and more to choose the path that does not require him to be alone (contrary to the one his father took.)

I would question how Lelouch is not going to be one of the people ruling the world if, Schnizel goes ahead and reveals his status. At the minimum he would have to abdicate the throne of Britannia to get out of that. Being alone and being a king do not nessecarily go hand in hand.

The recording Schneizel releases revealing Lelouch's identity apparently contains mention of the Geass. I don't know how in depth it goes since the point is pretty basic, but that is a possibility, as far as the content of the (partially unconfirmed) spoiler goes. Everything doesn't actually hit the fan until Diethard loses faith in him though, which I suppose is worth noting since it takes a hell of a lot to make Diethard stop trusting his God.

I don't really see why six people with ability and talent equal to Zero will not be able to fill his shoes, but we'll just have to agree to disagree on that point.

Lelouch long ago abdicated the throne, it just looks bad because he is a prince. Regardless, he is slowly becoming more and more alone, and is inevitably going to struggle to gain everything back- it seems likely to me that this will be at the cost of his power.

@Spawnblade: The next episode is entitled "United Nations Resolution Number 1". The United Nations consists of 47 separate contries unified against Britannia (actually, the literal translation would be something like "Great United Nations" or "Super United Nations" but I don't feel that accurately conveys what they're trying to say). The Black Knights haven't really been the black knights since the end of last season- they've been the United States of Japan.


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Reviews of my Work:
You are kind of boring - Blackorion
Congratulations! Ur an asshole! - tokyo_homi
Your awesome!!! - Cherelle_Ashley
NightSwan also said that she wanted to peg me, once, but I'm not sure whether to take that as a compliment or a threat...

Who said anything about those five or six people in his inner circle being equals? It's not a question of superiority or inferiority but a question of uniqueness. Though I think the Emperor looks at things based on the idea of superiority versus inferiority he is absolutely correct when he says that humans are not created equal. If everyone is different they most certainly cannot be truly equal at the same time. Everything at this point is going to hinge on what Schnizel does, and how he does it.

As far as the ending of all of this goes, I would love to see Lelouch serve a term as leader and then simply retire like George Washington did; I think something along those lines would be very powerful without being a lame cliche.

Last edited by shadow skill at 8:27 pm, Jul 20 2008