@heardtheowl That party school comment was just my 5 cents. Also it is mainly due to the people I went to highschool with and I don't think it's completely untrue. Oh Did you see the picture of me in the other thread? I would still be interested in seeing those pictures of me and Ares6 you said you would post (based on your image of us)

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~~~the world it is a dyin'~~ so let's just enjoy the view~~~

Totalanime: It's not just the rate of high school dropouts that causing this country's educational problems; even if someone finishes high school with a normal level of education, that's not worth anything when compared to any other developed country around the world. Most people who finish high school in this country know only one language (barely), while basically everywhere else in the world people are expected to know at least two, and that's a safe estimate.
And the math situation too: as someone mentioned (sorry whoever said this), there's people who finish high school with Algebra 2, or even less; everywhere else, they are expected to at least touch calculus.
From personal experience here, when I lived in Hong Kong, we learned addition and subtraction with numbers going into three digits while still in kindergarten; when I came here in 1st grade, I literally learned no math (nothing new anyway) from the school in 2 or 3 years.
One more thing: it's "affected," not "effected." Affect is a verb, and effect is a noun.

ouch. haha... I knew someone was going to comment on the affected/effected usage.

mmm... but to me, the education system is adequate. it's all in the wording, I suppose. like, look at me, I never learned to capitalize anything except the "I"s. </sarcasm> hahaha... but no, seriously.

I went to 2 high schools senior year so I could take the AP classes that I wanted to... (drove between the schools during lunch) I finished AP Calculus BC junior year of high school... and tried to take another math class senior year... but my school dropped AP Statistics because only 6 students were interested. but! it was adequate... since I strove to grab what I wanted.

It was frustrating that I couldn't get as much education out of my public schools as I wanted to... but after getting into college (at Univ. of Rochester right now), I find sooo many people at an intelligence level higher than mine. it's quite scary.

so, in the end, I think that the education system is adequate... but for those who want more... y'gotta strive to get more education instead of them forcing you to learn more. that's what it's all about: the passion for learning.

(As bad of me to say this...) right now, there are currently more and more overqualified people... and the jobs which require less uhm... skill... need to be filled. so, I don't think it's all too bad that the education system isn't forcing many people to learn more. this way, only the ones who truly wish to learn will... and those who don't... eh. (truly a pessimistic view of our nation, huh?)

but, I suppose it does become a problem since we're a democracy... y'know, everyone voting for a president and all.

...

oops. I'm changing my mind about the adequacy of the education system now.

edumacate an people more betterer!!

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-Max

I feel inclined to defend the education system because my own experience has been great. That being said, I don't know about what it's like outside of my own so I wouldn't be able to make a qualified general statement. Obviously, it's more difficult to teach people in certain areas and get them to succeed. I'm from California and grew up in a very closed Chinese community, so most of the kids in my elementary school were Chinese. I don't remember much, but we had a rather good program. I was put in a special class of students selected though a test, but in general, everyone was taught how to type correctly, do the same type of math, etc. In middle school, there was a division of honors and regular. In particular, there was a class that was one year ahead in math (doing algebra in 7th grade and geometry in 8th grade). One kid was even taking algebra 2 at a nearby high school, bused there everyday. In high school, you go in not really knowing what you should be doing to be competetive when applying for college, but you figure out eventually that AP classes are the way to go. Certain graduation requirements are enforced such as foreign language, american history, art, a certain level of math, etc. There were many available AP classes at my school and the quality was top notch, most of which I would attribute to my teachers. I went to a high school and middle school an hour away from home by public bus as default. The neighborhood was in general, richer so I assume the quality was better than what I would have received had I gone to a closer school. I dunno who makes these choices, but I would say I got a better education than I would have as a result. At least I think so. I don't know how successful it would be if they enforced an accelerated program for the entire school so I guess that's the bigger question here. Maybe if such a system were to be enforced then perhaps, communitively everyone would come to have the same concept and value of education. I somehow doubt that that would be true given different family backgrounds. Here, it seems to be based on more of an individual process of self selection and aptitude.

BTW, I didn't vote because I think the options are inherently biased.

It is a sort of paradox, really: up until high school, the US lags behind everyone else, but once college comes, it's among the best in the world. But it all really makes sense statistically: the US is still a very large country, so that there are still some very talented and bright individuals nonetheless. Once college comes, those who are brighter will go to the better schools, like Rochester, which you've mentioned. But as for the, shall we say, less than brightest, they go to the Community Colleges and public colleges out there. I really don't mean to be insulting anyone here, but (from personal experiences at the local community college and at the University of Florida) a large number of the people there aren't exactly top-notch. Dropout rates for public colleges are rather high too.
On a side note, someone mentioned that Florida schools are all party schools, and I'd have to agree, at least the public ones anyway. It's common knowledge around here that the probability of getting an STD at FSU is higher than the probability of getting a parking space (approx. 1/3 to 1/4).
Case in point is this: despite the US's lackluster education, there are still bright and motivated people who will go out of their way to get the education they want, and they'll end up ahead and gathered at the various upper-crust private schools.
But the real role of education is to motivate the rest and to build up their skills to adequate levels comparable to the other developed nations of the world (like ending high school math with calculus, teaching them another language, and teaching them the basics of grammar). I mean, I've read papers written by college freshmen with terrible grammar, fragments, and run-ons.
The real problems with education is that there's too much leeway: teachers don't care and just pass them, administration doesn't care so long as they pass the (laughably easy) state standardized tests, students just plain don't care, and parents don't take an interest and blame everyone else for their child's problems.
I saw this news story once where a high school senior read at a 4th grade level, and this just shows all the weak points. His teachers until then kept passing him onto the next grade, and his mom kept blaming everyone else, it never occurring to her to teach her own son to read.
In response to the post above this one: you are, really, an exception. I know it's a stereotype (I'm Chinese myself) but people of Asian descent, especially if they are recent immigrants, take a great interest in education. The fact that you traveled an hour to school in an urban area means that you did something out of the ordinary here, or at least your parents did. The problem with you suggestion is that if the school was put on a faster track, say with people required to take higher maths and AP's, parents would come in and complain that "it is too hard" and "unfair," and the administration would bend and give way since the last thing it wants is a scandal. I mean, there are schools out there that, not only do they not offer AP's at all, but they are abolishing honors classes altogether! How's that for being competitive on a global scale?
Sorry if this post was long, but I take a special interest in this topic, being directly involved with it myself.

Last edited by Ouroboros313 at 9:26 pm, May 2 2007

Actually, it was the norm for people from my neighborhood. At least three buses carried students from my area for middle school and high school. I think there are lines drawn for which people go where.

First. I went with "Nope. Not with recent statistical studies." I was going to go with just Nope but that wasn't an option. Heck I don't follow real statistical studies.
frustratedguy109, I feel the same way about my brother. But I haven't graduated yet. His grammar is atrocious and so is his friend's grammar. So, the friend moved here when he was like 6, 4 years, plenty of time to get the grammar correct. I correct their grammar sometimes, when I'm in a bad mood, but they just keep saying it wrong. I feel I'm somewhat to blame for my brother's grammar problem. I say "Me want some." or variations of that a lot and that probably makes my brother think that it's fine to use Me like that.
I learned multiplication/division in 3rd grade but most of the other people in my grade learned it in 4th. So 4th was review for me. Yay! There is a reason for the teachers to dumb it down, because most of their students now have ADD, are coddled, and because parents can overrule teachers' opinions. So, some people are passing grades without actually knowing the material that they're supposed to learn in that grade.
Manick, I'm perfectly fine with having exams be worth 40%. But it's true that not enforcing the hw does create bad work ethics. "better output from everyone"=impossible unless the schools are made differently.
Foreign Languages is compulsory in my high school, luisalirio84. We have to have at least one year of a foreign language to pass my high school and get the diploma. Of course most of the students aren't learning much in the first year. Half my spanish class has C or lower. Some of the A's and B's cheat to get their proper grade, see it with my own eyes. Maybe 7 people have proper A's. At least 2 of the students feel the teacher is inadequate. I personally think the teacher is perfectly adequate but then I'm doing some independent Spanish so what would I know? The third years don't know how to say cheek in Spanish. Even the some of the AP students don't know how to say cheek. Luis, I'm learning 2 foreign languages right now and I'm in high school in the US. I pretty much know French.
Yeah, the SAT math is easy. A sophomore in my school took it and he got a 1900+, ignore that he's in my math class. Two languages when you're just starting out as a baby? Of course that's possible.
What is so important about music? I still don't get it. I understand you can use it to communicate but you can use words to communicate, too.
Public education in the US IS publically funded, that's part of the reason why it's so bad and why it's called public education. Do you know how bored the smart people would be if you standardized the schools and the education taught? They're already bored in the current curriculm. Plus, I'd miss out on some of the electives they're offering at my school.
thelonegamer, high schoolers are currently graduating with Precalc here. But in 2 years they'll graduate with Geometry (lower than Algebra 2 in this case). The economy won't crash just because of stupidity and unintelligent people; it'll crash because of the draining war as well.
Oh, someone mentioned that Europe and Asian countries are more rigorous and demanding about homework and apparently more demanding. That reminds me of what this foreign exchanges student said. He said that in France if you made a tiny mistake like added 1 instead of subtracting 1 you would get a terrible grade. But her you make a little mistake like that and it's just off a point or two. He used to actually do his hw, now he only does it once in a while. My friend and I said that he's going to be miserable when he goes back to France because he was an exchange student here and that's going to mess up his study habits.
Immersion isn't a good way to learn a language? I haven't tried it myself so I wouldn't know but I always hear that it's a great way to learn a language. Yeah, ESL is terrible now. The elementary school in my district that had the ESL system got shutdown because the district lacked funding, now the district found its lost money and is spending it on crap. In fact the school gave away an ipod as a prize for a raffle here. They so could have spent it on school supplies or reopening the elementary school.
Calculus is freaking easy. Precalc is the killer.
DeLtA_IjK, why didn't you go to a nearby junior/community college for the next years/semesters of math? How did you convince the high schools to do that and which one did you graduate from? Higher intelligence means you just have to try that much harder to beat them and be the very best. Afterall you already know you're the best but will they believe you and can you prove it? Passion for learning, independent studies, desire to mock the less intelligent people, same difference. There aren't that many people overqualified people, at least not in the fields I'm looking in. We don't need people to lower their intelligence, there are already too many unintelligent OR poor people that need those jobs; it'd be a bad idea to encourage more people to get into thos positions.
bubbletownshappyzoo, that's my and plenty of people's experience in my city too (High School juniors and up) except for the Chinese part. It's more Filipino here than Chinese. But I still feel it's inadequate, I've been bored with school ever since I went to Arizona where the lowest A was a 92%. Here it's 90%. I don't think family backgrounds have much to do with anything and I hate it when people mention it. Of course I'm a hypocrite and an idiot so what do I know? I'm probably just spewing out a bunch of junk. School and learning is definitely based a lot on aptitude and attitude.
Ouroboros313, when you say education you're including learning in general with that right? I hate education but I like learning. Education, the way it is now is terrible but I love learning. On the other hand my brother is not that interested in learning, though he does do problems from my Preparing for the Exit Exam (Diploma test) and usually get them right; he's in elementary school. His grammar still sucks though. Also, a lot of white people are smart too; they're not given enough credit. You're right about the students and parents complaining. A group of students took APUSH KNOWING it would be hard and a lot of work. (Regular history classes are also provided.) But the students complained a lot and apparently a lot of parents heard them and complained to the district, or the school, and the teacher with the highest percentage of high testing students got banned from teaching APUSH.
Oh, a reason for the inadequacy is some great teachers are retiring.
bubbletownshappyzoo, you have some intelligent students there.
So, my school, half the Freshmen are still in Algebra 1 a.k.a. GOALS. Half of them are also failing. I use the term half fairly freely.

Last edited by ippy at 10:23 pm, May 2 2007

the level of adequacy of the u.s. educational system varies based on where you live and go. you really cant compare the u.s education system to other countries where the population is more homogeneous. language is a major obstacle in learning development and probably the main factor for such dismal testing scores and dropout rates.

blaming the education system as the sole problem for societal ignorance and unskilled labor force is unjust. there are other factors as yourself, parent involvement, motivation, school funding, school standards, etc.

imho being a product of the u.s educational system i think its adequate enough. i came from a poor immigrant family, english as 2nd language, little to no parental involvement, poorly funded public school, part time job and yet i manage to graduate top ten in my senior class of 2000+ or 200+ (i forget which). motivating yourself to want to learn is probably the biggest obstacle impeding your success as it doesnt get any easier in college where no one is going to force you.

very good.. I'm glad you guys are interested in the important aspects of life. I'm so proud.

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Star Trek XI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZiR-NETDr0

Motivating yourself is very important, and some people are naturally more motivated to learn than others. But isn't it also the school's role to teach the unmotivated students to want to learn? It's true that the quality of schools vary depending on where one goes, but one shouldn't have to travel one or two hours every day to go to the school across town or pay tens of thousands of dollars for a decent education.
The high school that I go to used to be the best in my county; about a decade ago, they used to handpick all the students, much the same way that colleges do, based on grades and transcripts. With this system, a lot of people finished AP Calc BC before they graduated and would take Number Theory or Calc 3 in their senior year. But then parents complained, and now we work on a lotto system; needless to say, the quality has gone way down. Brilliant teachers are stuck teaching geometry, and inadequate teachers are teaching high level stuff. (My Physics C teacher teaches that and all geometry, while a gym teacher teaches Calc AB)
Anyway, this year we sent about 6 people to the ivy league, and about 6 more to schools of comparable level. Compare that with the local private school ($20000 a year), which sent at least 20 people to the ivies.

Hmmm, I graduated from public High School over a decade ago ... at that time I felt my particular school was pretty good. Rather they had good options for those who wanted to go far, and good teachers. I also had the sense that education quality varied from school to school, and in the end, how educated a person came out depended on that person and the influence of their parents. I mean, we had AP classes, honors classes, foriegn language classes and what not available to us, but those weren't the minimum. So the student choose to take a general level class or not. Also, I think parents could have had alot of influence. My mom worked in the school system at that time and saw where parents would make up excuses, sometimes even lie about why a student missed school or whatnot. So, I guess my opinion is that good education can be available in the US, but first a person has to actually want the education and be shown that education is important. Of course that wouldn't matter if standards were raised and a person had to get a high education whether they liked it or not!

That said, I do think Science is under-represented! Look at Jeopardy! How many science-y questions do they ever have? And when they do, they seem pretty rudimentary!

BTW if anyone is interested, at my high school years ago (what its like now, who knows?) we had AP Calc, History, Latin, English, and Biology. I think if someone really really wanted to take another AP course not listed above, there was probably a teacher who could accomodate that student and tailor some learning. To graduate, (I don't remember the names) but there where two graduation options - one was the kind of general education, less requirements one where the student would probably go directly out into the work force. This one didn't require a foriegn language. The second one had much higher requirements and was meant for those who wanted to go on to college. This one required a foriegn language. At that time our school offered Spanish, French, and Latin as foriegn languages. I have to say, I saw alot of smart people who could probably mentally do fine in Honors courses and what-not only choose to take the easy stuff. BUT, in the end, I did everything "right" (foriegn language, AP courses, honors, whatever) and I still didn't end up anywhere today But that is my own problem, not the education system.

I graduated rank number 18 of my HS. I still have trouble with some subjects compare to kids that came from other states.....

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Life, what would it be without so much wrongs and rights?


Star Trek XI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZiR-NETDr0

Now that I've read through all the responses, I still don't know whether or not I consider the US education system adequate. I believe that I've received an adequate education, but others obviously feel differently...

Like someone else said, the US education system is not homogenous. It varies from state to state, county to county, district to district, etc. The link in the opening post did have some really depressing statistics, but that was only the worst school districts in the US. Now, I don't mean that the best districts are all that impressive either. 80% would mean that 1 out of every 5 people in my freshman class would have dropped out... People drop out for many reasons, and this doesn't necessarily have to do with the education system itself.

We should instead consider the quality of the education received by the students who do stay in school. Like some others have said, in my high school we had AP classes for english, biology, physics, chemistry, calculus, and I don't remember what else. However, there are also many people who have said that their education was inadequate. Because public schools are funded by the taxes in their particular neighborhood, richer neighborhoods have better public schools than poorer neighborhoods. So that is the reason why there is such a disparity in the quality of education.

You could say that the way public schools are handled is wrong, resulting in what we see here. If public schools were totally dependent on federal taxes, or even the state taxes, then the education people receive would be more equal. As it is now, many people receive an adequate, or better than adequate, education. But probably many more do not.

But getting people to support federally financed schools would probably be a problem. People from one neighborhood wouldn't want their taxes to go towards a school in another neighborhood, which their children do not go to. So even if we want to change the education system, we probably can't.

Eehh...? I disagree with that. I think that we have the chance to make some kinds of changes within our education system.

I will try to do my part in helping out the education system...
...I think I'm going to join Teach for America after I graduate from college. I think that most of what everyone said is right... sometimes, it does depend on where you're living. If you're living in a poor neighborhood with horrible schools and teachers -- what can you do? You're not going to spend money to send your kid to a better school when you haven't the money to spend on extra food.

So, I guess even though I won't have a teaching degree when I get out of college, I think that students similar to me can figure out effective methods of teaching students in these situations... and somehow make the education system a bit more homogenous. Yeah... I'm willing to spend 2 years out of my life after college to help with America's education system.

Sooo!! People who are in college. Think about that. If you're unhappy with the current education system, there are always ways to help out with the situation.

Mmm... haha to answer a few questions from above, I graduated from one high school... but had my "influence" in both high school's yearbooks. ^_^;; muwahah. And I didn't go to a community college to take higher math because I was cheap and didn't want to spend any more money than I had to... plus, uhh... I was kinda overloading on many AP classes... so I felt challenged enough by my schools.

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-Max

oh my goodness, SAY YES!!! DON'T SAY NO!! the learning is already easy, don't make those teachers torture us kids with more learning for the so called "your future". TT_____TT i am going to have superpower after-all!! hehehe xD

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