First of all, don't get me wrong i don't mind reading a good yaoi every now and then. but what i find a bit infuriating recently is the rise in characters where you find a completely straight guy seeming to lose attraction to females especially after having "good??" sex with another guy....

To me that seems a bit unfair as a female - yes i know these are manga characters. But it sounds like as if compared between males and females - after the main character has sex with a male, if he decides to try things out with a female - she may not be able to give as much pleasure to the guy anymore therefore he'd rather go for males from now on - i don't know why but that sounds a bit dodgy - is orientation in these manga's based on who gives more pleasure then?

I find it rather saddening that these "female" mangakas create stories where they discredit the female gender as not being able to keep a relationship with a man just because said man has had enjoyable sex with guys therefore bye bye relationship with girl - hello relationship with men - it just gives out the wrong message.

im looking for all the titles and right now though the one that comes off on the top of my head is Koisura Bokun and Turning Point both by TAKANAGA Hinako.

There is another series called Leopard Hakusho - don't know if the uke was straight or not - but the commentary kinda irritated the shit out me (pleae read pg 35-36) (Sorry this was rant - needed it out of my system)

what are your thoughts on this?

PS. i know im gonna get a couple of "don't read them then" comments 🤨

Lol, I am a female as well and I get what you're trying to say here. But for me, this is just manga (chances of this happening in rl is pretty rare) so I'm okay with it. In fact, I'm more than okay. I'd rather have them end up with the guy in the end anyways since I'm reading a yaoi.

I've read...three of the manga that you brought up as an example and I don't believe it was offending (to me). Perhaps the mangaka aren't trying to discredit females (since most are females anyway n_n); they're just trying to write a plot so they need to include that particular scenario in order to emphasize the straightness of the seme and his switch to loving a guy. I know, some people aren't fond of that. But then again, I'm not fond of every yaoi manga I read so I just stay clear from those I don't like. 😛

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I read Turning Point and I don't remember a scene like that...
But I really just love when the uke is straight, he has sex with a guy and then he love it and can do it with women anymore (I know, really pervert)
So what you dislike I like.
What I don't like is that every woman in a yaoi manga that is in a relationship with the guy is a bitch, always the women are the bads, like he doesn't believe in love because all the women are with him for his money or his appearance, or something like this

This is somewhat old but what the hell. I'm writing this down anyway.

Well, you said:

Quote from Raven_Alabaster

What I find a bit infuriating recently is the rise in characters where you find a completely straight guy seeming to lose attraction to females especially after having "good??" sex with another guy....

I don't remember anything like this in Turning Point but, to be fair, I've read that quite a while ago, and didn't particularly enjoy it either.

Still, from my latest experience with Straight-to-Gay characters (I'll include works from the past five years or so) that is not the kind of scenario I've come across with at all. It usually goes something like this: the straight man enjoys having sex with another male (out of curiosity, pheromones or what have you) then establishes some kind of relationship with him (sex friends, usually) and eventually falls in love with him. This, of course, talking of a man who has been actively involved with women in the past. Perhaps surprisingly, I can't remember any good work of the kind where the "converted" man speaks badly of women or even mentions that he's disappointed in them or is forever done with them.

One of the mangas I'm currently following is the on-going Hana wa Saku ka by Hidaka Shoko, and here too we have a straight man, in his thirties, who falls in love with another man, and a much younger one at that. In this particular case it didn't start with sex, they just grew closer. The "converted" still hasn't said anything bad about his previous relationships with women, apart from pointing out the obvious fact that they ended badly. But he does acknowledge the fact that he's the one to blame, since he was always half-hearted about the women he has been involved with.

I can recall some pretty sexist, mean things male characters have said about women, but as far as I can tell these came from guys who were already gay to begin with. Haha. I only think this is unfair if it's gratuitous or out-of-place. For instance, I don't mind it so much if the guy is a foul mouth and the artist is trying to set a fairly realistic, if crass, tone to her storytelling (and the sexist here is usually the seme). But I hate it--hate it--when it's the girly uke badmouthing on all the women in the world, and I hate it mostly because in such a scenario the uke is, more often than not, a girl with a penis.

Comparisons between a man and a woman as far as the quality of the performance during sex goes can only be symptomatic of a low quality work, unless there's a very strong reason to do it, plot-wise, or if one of the guys is profoundly insecure (and even in such cases, it takes a good storyteller to do it right).

So, when you ask if orientation in BL is based on who gives more pleasure, I have to say no, not from my experience, not according to the mangas I read.

Quote from Raven_Alabaster

I find it rather saddening that these "female" mangakas create stories where they discredit the female gender as not being able to keep a relationship with a man just because said man has had enjoyable sex with guys therefore bye bye relationship with girl - hello relationship with men - it just gives out the wrong message.

Hum... I don't think that's really the problem with the way female mangakas depict female characters.

As far as female participation in BL goes, I would be more concerned with the fact that women practically don't exist in the yaoi world, and when they do they are seldom portrayed under any worthy light. They always tend to fall in some archetype or another. Way, way back the most used one was probably the "bitch" who stood in the way of the happy ending (still used today for heterosexual couples). A while back it was the intended bride, and then the arranged marriage took over the whole plot (I try to keep away from this kind of plot, maybe it's still in use?). The most recent works that I've read and in which women are acknowledged, it is usually the case that they are either sisters or a very sensible best friend who doesn't play that big a part. Sometime there's a mother too, which I personally love, but a kind, supportive and active mother in BL is hard to come by.

Quote from Raven_Alabaster

There is another series called Leopard Hakusho - don't know if the uke was straight or not - but the commentary kinda irritated the shit out me (pleae read pg 35-36) (Sorry this was rant - needed it out of my system)

I never read this manga (and quite frankly don't intent to after what I saw) but I took the trouble to look for your reference 🤣

See, the problem with that ridiculous scene and dialogue, at least from my point of view, is not so much that the seme is discrediting women as to their ability to satisfy a man, but that the seemingly straight guy, despite the fact he's being brutally raped, still finds time to rationalise and come to the brilliant conclusion he is somewhat, for some inexplicable reason, enjoying being raped and humiliated.

Yes, you're right, that is an infuriating habit that we are all too accustomed with but I don't see it as a need from the female writer to diminish women. Rather, it's all part of the annoying Love=Rape trope that BL is all too chocked up with. It seems hard for some BL writers to come up with a reason for a straight guy to turn gay so they use the rape card. The guy has to realise it feels good, he has to realise -- while doing it (this cracks me up every time) -- that to have sex with a man feels better than to have sex with a woman just to reach the conclusion he was gay all along.

Some artists do this hundred times better, without the rape, without badmouthing sex with women. And well, if you don't like the previous scenario, these are the artists you have to look for. Haha.

And wtf----I wrote this in a blink of an eye. How is this so long? xD

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Of the player and the craftsman,
Of the writer of songs, of the creator of love,
Of those who will follow, of those who led,
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I take it as the man either being a closet homosexual or a self-hating bisexual who refused to embrace his gay side, & out of fear of being criticized for going against social or religious norms, tried to convince himself he was straight & failed miserably.

What I hate is when a secondary love interest suddenly becomes bisexual, without previously mentioning that he swung both ways, after he settles for his female best friend after failing to get the guy he wants. (Happened in Fake extra "Like Like Love" & Kusatta Kyoushi no Houteishiki.

Having grown up a fujoshi, & having read yaoi & BL for 16 years, I'm so used to the scenario that it's commonplace. To be honest, I'm not a fan of women being in love at all. Sexist media depictions of women existing solely to be in love & get f**ked & make dinner & pop out babies has put a sour taste in my mouth for heterosexual relationships.

As everyone has said, in my opinion the scenario of a man 'turning gay' because the sex was better than with a woman is so rare that I can't recall ever having seen it. What I have seen much more often is that a man likes the person first, so learns to enjoy the sex.

@MirayAllen Much appreciated your thoughtful comments. Regarding female characters in yaoi, I'm also seeing some progress here. Both FAKE and Gravitation, neither recent, have strong female characters, though the latter has one of the 'arranged marriage bride' types. More recently, the side story "LaLa" in Two Wolves and Their Sons had a sister who gave the guys the idea that they should make their friendship something more. MIYAMOTO Kano often writes female characters with important roles, such as Satou in Hydra. It really doesn't matter to me either way, though, as I'm reading for the men. 😃

Quote from LikaLaruku

Having grown up a fujoshi, & having read yaoi & BL for 16 years, I'm so used to the scenario that it's commonplace. To be honest, I'm not a fan of women being in love at all. Sexist media depictions of women existing solely to be in love & get f**ked & make dinner & pop out babies has put a sour taste in my mouth for heterosexual relationships.

I think you've hit on something here. It's been documented that part of the appeal of yaoi is that since there are no women leads, the female reader can choose which of the partners she wants to identify with. She can choose the traditional 'feminine' role, or she can choose to identify with the aggressor, or even switch back and forth, in a way that she cannot in a male/female romance.

My impression is just that they're gay/bisexual/pansexual from the start. They just go out with girls at first because society has taught them "that's what guys do".