I'm very much aware of that actually. However that doesn't make it not sexist. Women can be sexist to women and men to men. It doesn't require the opposite gender employing it to be sexist. I see that a lot. "But a woman wrote it so it cant.." Yes it can. While there are many pathetic female lead/abusive male lead stories they aren't all like that so just because someone dislikes that doesn't mean they should stop reading manga or watching anime. Kare Kano, Kimi Ni Todoke, Aozora Yell, FMA, Blood+. You can avoid them if you want to.

Didn't say that women can't be sexist to women.

I am saying that it's written mostly by women to appeal to other women/girls, and it works, because that's the content that the female demographic buys into.

And again, you're reversing the cause-and-effect and blaming the authors and not the audience. If the majority of content is what you'd consider sexist, and that applies to shojo and yaoi which are focused almost entirely on the female demographic, then it's the readership and viewership that are driving that kind of content into prominence.

Indeed. Just remember the golden rule that 90% of everything is crap and you're set.

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I'm actually not even sure what you are arguing tbh. If they wrote it and created it then regardless of why they still created something with sexist themes. It doesn't matter who is to blame. Women can enjoy it but that doesn't mean the themes aren't there. Again I'm not sure what you are arguing though. It's like people enjoying the saw films and somebody says "it's violent" and then somebody else goes "but that sells!" Well yes clearly since they keep being made but they are still violent. It's worth pointing out and discussing. But it sells is just a way for fans to keep out opinions that offend them. Yes it sells..but some people don't like it and they are gonna talk about it. I like yaoi. I don't like rape. If I read one and it has rape in it..well I'm going to say something. Maybe my comment will drive away people who dislike such content..maybe someone will get offended. But I'm going to point it out regardless. Just a side comment but I have enjoyed manga with problematic themes. A few here and there. I don't lie to ppl and pretend it's not there. If it's there it's there. Minamoto kun monogatari for example.

I think I said it somewhere above, but these kinds of threads pop up constantly, and it's all about how some tired old cliches and writing tropes are dumb. On the Shonen board there's a "Worst Shonen Cliche" and "Worst Shojo Cliche", which are both essentially this thread, just much less specific and much less condemning.

I guess my argument is basically, is this kind of discussion really about how (most) manga is discriminatory or objectifying or degrading toward women? Or is just the same kind of talk about how mainstream manga and anime is garbage, just attempted to be framed in a higher-brow wrapping?

More sexism please!

If that's what Japan produces, I'm fine with it.

This thread is the same endless, tiresome thing that drove me away from Anime News Network. A bunch of young (and this old) persons took a liking to Japanese popular media. I don't know about the rest of you, but I came to love the stuff because it is DIFFERENT from American materials.

One way it's different is that American pop materials are constantly patrolled by American feminists, with the result that the stuff here has become predictable and deadly boring. (There are other, worse reasons for that predictability, but we're talking about this one now.)

So, despite liking stuff from that far away foreign country in part because it's different from our light media, you get mad at those differences within it that don't meet your feminist expectations.

If you succeeded in patrolling manga and anime into what you deem "proper" form, I bet within a few months you'd be bored to death with it.

This is, of course, fantastically ignorant on the face of it. Although it shouldn't need to be said, and indeed probably doesn't need to be said, sexism is not some cornerstone of Japanese culture and plenty of people can (and do) admire manga or other aspects of Japanese culture, without embracing every element of it. There is more to Japanese culture -- and to manga -- than sexism (its amazing that, at least for someone, this needs to be said) and the two can be differentiated, i.e. you can have one (at least in some form) without the other. Insisting otherwise is akin to saying one can't read an American comic book without supporting the Iraq War (or any other totally inane and illogical belief I suppose.)

These are two totally unrelated subjects, and its fine to love manga while still being critical some aspect of Japanese society. Indeed, that simply demonstrates the most basic level of complex thought. By insiting you have to accept sexism to like manga you're not defending Japanese culture -- you're simply defending sexism. This bears repeating. The fact that you think otherwise makes you a demogauge with a startling disregard for any sort of nuance and frankly makes your comment one of the stupedist things I've ever read.

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"We can not resort to simplistic or extreme solutions which substitute myths for common sense." ― Jimmy Carter

Lol, american comics are the same, there are many good ones with progressive female characters but an equal if not more number of awful representations.

Ever heard of "women in refrigerators"?

First off, 'women in refrigerators' is a concept that dated over 15 years ago. So times have changed since then. These days, American comics seem to be under fairly heavy scrutiny by the media. Which honestly, I can't fully say I agree with as it can limit the writer and artist's creativity. Two notable examples that come to mind pertain to two variant covers of Spider-Woman and Batgirl, which claimed that the two female characters were shown in inappropriate situations when their male counterparts have been shown in very similar situations.

Anyways, here's my general take on things...

What I feel about art in general is that its usually influenced by society as opposed to society being influenced by art. Sure kids can be easily impressionable to some degree, but it's not like they're going to spy on girls in the locker room just because they saw their favorite character do in a comic. I'd give them a bit more credit than that. Ultimately, manga is just a short reprieve from life where you can just have fun and fantasize a bit which is no different from books or television.

Honestly, sexism is something that's just kind of everywhere. Now before you decry me as some creepy supporter of sexism who lives in the basement of his parents home, I'm just saying that its kind of a given. You can't really completely eliminate something from manga because its just such a varied and diverse field of art which houses the thoughts and opinions of millions of different people who each have their own way of seeing things. There's always going to be some racism, sexism, and all that jazz that you disagree with in nearly everything you read or watch or hear on a regular basis. What's right to some people may not be right to others. It's just a matter of perspective. It's pointless to force change onto things as simple as small forms of entertainment especially when the majority of people feel like this change would hurt what they enjoyed to begin with.

Of course, I'm not saying that you have no right to criticize something, I'm just saying that there's a limit to where you should go.

American comics in general have a ton of issues stemming from being around for almost a century now, and half of it being seen as a social stigma when read by anyone except boys (not males, mind you, but teenagers who haven't "grown up yet").

When compared to manga, most American comics are created by a company and not a single writer/artist, which leads to too many cooks spoiling the soup, endless cycling of storylines, lack of consistency characterization, lack of focus on characters, author favouritism, and on and on.

The whole "women in refrigerators" concept is one of the results of the American comic mess, and is basically the end result of 1) most superheroes being male, 2) having female love interests or sidekicks/teammates, and 3) companies having decade after decade after decade of needing cheap excuses to start a new conflict, which usually leads to the offing of side characters.

Which isn't to say it's exclusive to women in comics, or that being killed is even remotely permanent. I think casual commentators usually overstate just how big of a deal someone dying or being replaced is in the comic book world. Almost everyone in DC/Marvel's main franchises have died at least once, and most of the time a character being hurt/traumatized/killed is just an excuse to put another person into the costume (Batman alone, there's probably been like three dozen individuals who have taken up the Batman/Batgirl/Batwoman/Robin mantels). And for the most part, those moments are largely remembered as "that dumb storyline".

First off, what is sexism? Everyone has a different definition for it, so you don't even know what exactly cecropiamoth is embracing here.

He's right though. If Japanese media were to be held to American political correctness standards, you don't have to be Nostradamus to predict that a large chunk of its Western fan base would get bored and turn away.

Anime/manga fans are traditionally thought to be ultra liberals, but in recent years there's been an upsurge of people with conservative or far-right views in the scene. You'd be surprised how many japanophile white power activists and MRAs there are. Hell, even the web's most trendy neo-nazi site right now regularly uses anime memes.

The irony is that while the anime/manga subculture is certainly to the far-left of the social spectrum in Japan, its promotion of family values and feminine virtues makes it appealing to those who are at odds with the political status quo in the West.

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Maybe study up on http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Gail_Simone But here is the important part:
"Simone has been noted as being one of the most influential women in the comic book industry Her blog, Women In Refrigerators, is noted for raising awareness of the representation of women in comics. Simone stated that the blog was not to condemn the industry for its use of women, but raise awareness of the tendency for female characters to be used as mere plot devices. Simone has stated that most female characters are targeted at male audiences through oversexualization and advocates the creation of female characters that are equals to male characters, a practice in which Simone herself has been recognized for engaging."
Her Secret Six is a 10/10 and her version of Barbara Gorden was just the best.
Even the de-aged and non-paraplegic New 52 one. I will also state again that i like the pulled Batgirl cover i linked too and dae428 mentioned as it represent the Joker and the way he tortured her in the Killing Joke very accurately but it did stick out a bit amongst the other variants of course. Here is the thing tough.
It is way less messed up than what he did to her in Death of the Family (also written by her) which didn´t cause an internet shitstorm as one would need to open the comic and read it to find out what was going on but that is just too hard in our modern age.

http://printmag.com/wp-content/uploads/Manara_SpiderWoman- comiX.jpg (Slightly nsfw)
Milo Manara's Spider-Woman was a bit of course but how come that all his earlier covers were fine? It´s also not more (actually less) sexist then what Boichi and friends would put on a seinen cover so i don´t care. Let´s not get me started to the Borderline-H/ Smut that is way too often targeted at young readers only.
This trash is now nearly non existent in the comic field as Avatar Press themselves has stopped doing that years ago and switch to (most) good horror comics and even published Alan Moor books. His current "Crossed +100" is a 8,5/10 despite or maybe because of all the gore and sexual violence (that is targeted at both genres).
Also: Market Research Says 46.67% of Comic Fans are Female
http://comicsbeat.com/market-research-says-46-female-comic-f ans/
More girls then boys read manga in my library too!

Well all know how the american society works and US/Euro comics are about as sexist as their movies or tv shows. Comics, games and even my HBO´s shows are undeniably sexist (it´s the age-ism again that kill me) but only as much as society as a whole in these markets. America is also less sexist then Japan and is at least willing to at least discuss these topics in the open. Don´t try to tell me otherwise and my country is currently led by a woman. Expect one of that in good old Nipon for the foreseeable future and i am not bashing them as i do like their entertainment and some of their values but one needs to acknowledge facts too. They also need to start to work WAY less, should be allowed to go on strike and maybe start having sex again as the age gap they created over the last few decades will destroy them soon if nothing happens.
See how unimportant sexism in manga looks now in comparison?

Can someone help me to list a few modern day female anime directors or head writers as that filed is knows to be a big boys club only. All of animated Sailor Moon was handled by men for one. The highly uneven Mari Okada would be a start. I am bringing this up as we all could list hundreds of (good) female mangaka here but not so much there.
I find the way modern mass market (this part is important!) anime represents women way more problematic then manga.
What was the last josei anime you had the chance to watch? See how hard this is!

Edit: @-shiratori-- What? Japan's Animation TV Ranking, March 16-22:
http://animenewsnetwork.com/news/2015-03-30/japan-animation -tv-ranking-march-16-22/.86525
This is what japan is into. You know Sazae-san and not 2chan trash.
Only 1 shoujo anime shows up with Go! Princess Precure. Hm. Not good.
Edit2: Shonen 4: Detective Conan, Shaun the Sheep, One Piece and Yōkai Watch.
Family shows 4: Chibi Maruko-chan, Crayon Shin-chan, Doraemon and Sazae-san.
WTF?: Shaun the Sheep
These 10 makes money like crazy and Psycho-Pass 2 (josei?) barely slithers by in disc sales. This is the face of anime. The end.

Last edited by residentgrigo at 4:50 pm, Mar 31 2015

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I also read EU/US comics and am a librarian.
Manga-Masters, My ANN-Lists + Imdb

Was that supposed to be directed at me?

Anyway, those are mainstream anime that get watched by kids and regular Japanese people. When I talk about the subculture, I'm referring to the late-night anime crowd.

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You realize there's only 2 shounen on that list too, right? 7/10 of those shows are for little kids.

I'm detecting feminist rhetoric here, so I'll be basing my answers on that fact.

You know, sexism is such a loaded word that has a bunch of
connotations and just so much baggage behind it...
I think certain people start seeing it everywhere at a certain point.
I've been hearing a lot about crazy feminist exploits lately, and really, it's just... Come on.
I'm kinda tired of it.
Excuse me if I'm being a little brash.

So I'd like to address this first-


Is it really? Let's ignore the phrase "sexual objectification" for a moment, and look at what you're saying... High schoolers being portrayed in a sexual manner...on tv... In America? In Britain? Where do you mean? Because it certainly doesn't seem "not okay" in those countries. I watch a lot of American and British tv, and I can tell you that whenever there's a high school involved, sex usually happens/implied/discussed. Because life. The viewers want to see attractive actors.
I don't understand why you'd call it objectification. Don't you remember high school? The hormones? People hooking up? Or at least dating? Both sides are involved, you know. So what's your point? For people not to date? For producers not to create shows that'll cater to those demographics of youngsters who want a hot date? If anything, men are being objectified here, because as far as I know, high school romances are predominantly enjoyed by... high schoolers/middle-schools and whatever girls. And who do they pine over? The guys. Unless they're into girls, but that's a point for a different paragraph.

And ok, you say you want better representation... A more realistic one, I assume?
But who'd read that? People want the fantasy. They want to read about the ugly duckling who grows into a beautiful swan and gets the hot, rich guy...

There's a limit to how realistic you can make something before it becomes boring.



I'll be honest with you and say that I've never read a yaoi with those phrases, apart from trap hentai.
As for the shoujo thing... Like others have said, it has to do with Japan being conservative.
Doesn't make it great, but, you know, cultural differences.

But again, yaoi and romance shoujo are targeted at teenage girls. They buy it so people write it.
If you don't like it, don't read it. There's plenty of good stuff you can find.
That's what I do.



Ok, and? Please, by all means, share your opinion. Freedom of speech and all.
I once read a Type90 series that had a lot of elements I disliked, so I made a comment here on MU listing those elements. But if somebody wants to read and enjoy huge dick penetration rape, they're welcome to it. Just because I don't like it, doesn't mean there aren't people who would.

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And if the world were black and white,
you would be my rainbow in shades of grey.

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If I had a fantasy self, it'd be a tentacle monster.