I don't think there is any problem with ideals such as "Yamato Nadeshiko". "Yamato Nadeshiko" is perceived by other cultures as that it is sexist. It may very well be, but lets look at why sexism is a bad thing. I do not believe that it is a bad thing because it gives traditional roles to each gender but because it devalues people based on gender. Given such, I do not see how such ideals like "Yamato Nadeshiko" is a bad thing. I don't think "Yamato Nadeshiko" implies any sort of inferiority at all. In my view, because many cultures in Asia put importance on taking care of their family rather than achieving independence (like in most western cultures) such individuals would be revered.

Given that, I personally do not uphold such ideals.

I just wanted to point out that cultural differences should be taken into account when giving opinions or judging other cultures.

"Existence precedes and rules essence." -Sartre
"When I do good, I feel good; When I do bad, I feel bad, and that is my religion." -Lincoln
"You can either hold yourself up to the unrealistic standards of others, or ignore them and concentrate on being happy with yourself as you are." -Jacques

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Quote from Vyk

I don't think there is any problem with ideals such as "Yamato Nadeshiko". "Yamato Nadeshiko" is perceived by other cultures as that it is sexist. It may very well be, but lets look at why sexism is a bad thing. I do not believe that it is a bad thing because it gives traditional roles to each gender but because it devalues people based on gender. Given such, I do not see how such ideals like "Yamato Nadeshiko" is a bad thing. I don't think "Yamato Nadeshiko" implies any sort of inferiority at all. In my view, because many cultures in Asia put importance on taking care of their family rather than achieving independence (like in most western cultures) such individuals would be revered.

Given that, I personally do not uphold such ideals.

I just wanted to point out that cultural differences should be taken into account when giving opinions or judging other cultures.

im with you on this one. the notion of being perfect is already an unrealistic illusion. we have to take in consideration the views of different cultures as well as personal taste and understand that the notion of a perfect women in their society may differ from western culture but this is what ppl in their culture has been ingrained, taught and reinforced to believe as the collected conscious of their society.

On the flip side when asked what is the perfect american female, would you be shock with the responses?

Just because it’s considered part of their tradition and culture doesn’t make it any less sexist. Well, maybe you just don’t take it as personal as me because you’re on the other side of the metaphorical fence.

Your norms and values are not that of the world. Just because you think that, just because I think that, doesn't make it so. Life isn't that simple. But most people have one view only. =/

Having said that, that sure is not perfect to me. 🤣 Perfect does not exist. Even if something is perfect, the downside of that is that it's too perfect. Which makes it not perfect anymore. xD
A paradox. @_@

Besides, the concept isn't used much anymore, no? Isn't this something of the past? >.<

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It is interesting to note that while there is a great amount of anime and manga that portrays the Nadeshiko stereotype as perfect there is also plenty that shows just the opposite. Frail, young, or even childish women as being "super human" in some respect. Like there is an inherent inward strength in women that transcends any that the stongest man can attempt. This dichotomy is shown in many cultures as the Madonna-whore complex. By giving a archetype to the perfect woman men instill thier insecurities in it. Thus any woman capable of surpasing this archetype while still ecompassing most of its characteristics can have an inherent control over any man. Thus the pure Madonna, passive, quiet, can become the domineering whore.

Face it men are very insecure so although we need this Nadeshico type dream woman that we can dominate and control, we need the superior super girl type even more for guidance and limitations.

Everyone has seen Evangelion by now right? Look at the women there from  Rei to Asuka to Misato. Each of these women shows a varying degree of the Nadeshico type mixed with the whore or the super woman.

 I guess.

I'm old enough now to know why my partents thought my generation was a bunch of idiots, cause now I think that way about yours!

Quote from amaranthine

Just because it’s considered part of their tradition and culture doesn’t make it any less sexist. Well, maybe you just don’t take it as personal as me because you’re on the other side of the metaphorical fence.

Okay, I didn't mean to say that there is NO problem with such things. I was merely trying to say what we, as a culture, think is problematic may be different from what others think as problematic.

What we may think as limiting and perhaps even devaluing women, may be just the opposite because their value system differs from ours. To women of some cultures, striving for independence may seem strange and even wrong because to those cultures, family is much more important than being a self sufficient person.

I must reiterate that I do not uphold such ideals and also that I do not see either view as wrong or right. I am saying that people should keep their minds open to values of other societies and not judge without knowing their views. More importantly people shouldn't try to change or impose their value to other societies without understanding all perspectives.

hm... I was trying not to sound sexist, but now I just sound like an idealist idiot 🤢

"Existence precedes and rules essence." -Sartre
"When I do good, I feel good; When I do bad, I feel bad, and that is my religion." -Lincoln
"You can either hold yourself up to the unrealistic standards of others, or ignore them and concentrate on being happy with yourself as you are." -Jacques

[img]http://myanimelist.net/signature/Vyk.png[/img]

@Vyk: We're both an idealist idiot then 🤣 Oh, I got what you were saying the first time... it's just that I don't agree with it. And even if given the chance, I wouldn't try to change their, or any culture overnight~

@Dr. Love: It's still very much present, although not as strictly imposed as before, the subliminal messages are just as ubiquitous... That goes for both genders, like there should be "perfect" role that we should conform to. It's just that women have it more difficult and restricting (from my perspective, but I think it's true in most countries).

Despite their advancement in technology, Japan tends to maintain a lot of their traditions in their culture. Of course, that doesn't mean they conform only to the traditional teachings. But they keep them in mind. For example, they learn about the noble spirit of a warrior despite the fact that most people don't fight. Most people also do not follow the ways of the warrior, but it's something they learn about and pass on.

On another note, just as asking for the perfect woman is sexist, would not asking for the perfect man also be sexist? If we think about it from both sides, both have many expectations from the old days. Female are expected to be graceful while male are expected to be strong. Female are expected to be gentle, while men have to be... umm... manly? If a girl likes to fight, she's generally considered rough in a bad way. If a guy goes, "Aww, that's soo cute!" when he sees a stuffed animal or something, some people will question his sexual orientation.

So ya... if you want to look at it that way, then life is unfair for everyone...

Quote from amaranthine

It's just that women have it more difficult and restricting (from my perspective, but I think it's true in most countries).

Hey~, that statement is too easily said. 😀

Besides could you at least back up that statement? 😛

No one has it 'more' difficult. They all have their own problems. Male/female, rich/poor, young/old, black/white.

You can't just say something is harder than the other, especially if you belong to the class that has to 'endure' the most presumably.

That's very subjective. =O At least say that women have it more difficult in the aspect/area of....

Well, there's also the 'perfect Western male' created by Western women. The 'new man'. It's just as absurd as the 'perfect Japanese female'.

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Well, there's also the 'perfect Western male' created by Western women. The 'new man'. It's just as absurd as the 'perfect Japanese female'.

yes, but it's not as prevalent as the "perfect female". See, the japanese even have a specific word for it.

Anyway, about the Yamato Nadeshiko thing, it's called "traditional" for a reason. It's old. It was sexist, yes, but a lot of people don't follow that view anymore. More and more Japanese women nowadays stray from this ideology. Their whole life isn't just about getting married anymore (as it was in the days when the term "Yamato Nadeshiko" was coined). Look, just a few decades ago, most Japanese women had arranged marriages because that was what their adult life should be all about---being a domestic wife and be supported by their husband. But now, less than 10% of the Japanese population practice arranged marriages---and most of those are in the provinces. And this is only in just a matter of decades.

Sure, they still have a long way to go to reach equality (japan still remains a patriarchal society), but it's getting there, one step at a time. And i'm optimistic.

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“What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.”

I never even heard of it before this thread. >.<

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Quote from Dr. Love

Quote from amaranthine

It's just that women have it more difficult and restricting (from my perspective, but I think it's true in most countries).

Hey~, that statement is too easily said. 😀

Besides could you at least back up that statement? 😛

Hm, how about those women in the Middle East? Or in Africa? In most Asian countries? Oh, and in Japan, women earn on average 50% of what the men are earning for the same position (from my text book some years ago, so the exact % might be different now, I don't know).

I could write a whole 10 page essay, and then some... but that isn't really the topic @_@ I'll stop before I rant~ 🤣

And what is wrong with those of Middle East? I don't know about Africa, Asia, etc.~ But I haven't seen any woman complain in Middle East. And I can know. XD

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Quote from Wild Star

yes, but it's not as prevalent as the "perfect female". See, the japanese even have a specific word for it.

Uhhhh no. Not at all. See, they might have a specific word for it, but Japan is a very work oriented society, and anyone (male) withought a decent job is considered trash. They simply don't NEED a word for the stereotypical man.

Uhhhh no. Not at all. See, they might have a specific word for it, but Japan is a very work oriented society, and anyone (male) withought a decent job is considered trash. They simply don't NEED a word for the stereotypical man.

sigh. Go study language. You'll see that the most important things will have words attached to it. If anything is relevant, people are quick to attach a word to it, slang or otherwise. In my country, for example, we have 10 different words for "rice", which says a lot about how integrated and important it is in our everyday lives.

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“What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.”