After thinking for a while. I have actually come to the conclusion that God is either evil or flawed. I mean as Varna has stated he is seen as perfect and all-knowing, thus why would there be so much suffering in this world, like how people all over the world are suffering from hunger, death and more. Like, according to Zubz1313, he is the one giving food to starving kids in third world countries... that just seems like God fixing up his mistakes. Or maybe it was God who purposely created a disaster to starve those kids and it was just us, humans, cleaning up His experiments. So according to these two possibility God is either flawed in trying to fix his mistake or he is evil in purposely allowing this suffering to go on.

And I would think that people would not want believe in an evil deity or a flawed one at best.

Also, don't post ideas about how God makes you suffer so you can become strong or save everybody because that is just bullshit. God is basically going with survival of the fittest with that the people who can not suffer die. And if you say that it is humans who cause this disaster then we are "Gods" creation so its his flaw for making a flawed creation.

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"Existence before essence. Man must first exist, encounter himself and then he defines himself afterwards."
Jean-Paul Sartre

if i may barf my damn bible analize teachings once again, there is no rule in the bible against slavery, and like the war rules, there are also slavery rules.
since the christian religion came from the jewish religion and the muslim religion came from both, those rules apply on all three religions right?
so when the bible even mention rules for slavery, it means it approves slavery, bcuz you wont give rules for something you do not approve on, right?
so the bible approve and acknowledge slavery.

now about the rules. those "rules" basically state that ppl can sell themselve to slavery, and sell ppl from other religions to slavery (those who do not belive in the "one god" r no humans of course).
for belivers thers a due date for the slavery time, its not forever. those who choose to remain slave,gave up their freedom, r no longer humans, and have their ear pierced.
therefore, by law if you kill a slave who belongs to someone, you can pay him, he is a "thing". if ya killed your own slave ur screwd cuz you lost a slave.

and about the "treat your neighbors as you do yourself", TOTAL BULLSHIT. the original quote is, again, about FRIENDS.the bible orders you to attack ur neighbor countries. and besides, taking the things written above, slaves r not humans, so they r not ur friends.


*once again, analize made by an ethaist teenager who was forced to study bible from grade 2, bible analize from grade 7,also hebrew law and muslim history for one year in grade 9. all these teachings currupted her*

Last edited by moritana at 10:31 pm, Jun 30 2007

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the best security guard, EVER.

@chaire

not that i love God or believe he even exists for that matter but, i think it is a bit misdirected to blame Him for the bad(and good) things that happen.

the way i see it, in the hypothetical situation that he did create us, we are just something that was made. Everything else that happens is a "consequence"/"effect" that takes place after the choices we make.

the bible contradicts it's self a bit when stating things. i for one can't say that i believe all the crazy stories put in there. like the ten plagues is a bit much. like stated earlier by true_grave_unit, that angel of death bit is extreme. i see the bible as a collection of books that tries to glorify a higher being.

for example the angel killing all the first-borns. uh is that true? i don't think so. it is something only stated in the bible. for all we know, the real story could have had to do with an epidemic that ended in death to young ones with a weak immune system(what about hygiene back then?). i mean really, think of all the myths about how if you do something bad God will punish you. that story could have easily been changed into what is now known as a divine punishment of sorts.

This is all IMO. no substantial evidence, not that the bible has any either. just my logic.

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HUBBY of DUBBY

obviously you dont get my point... the subject on slavery is pointed out is to make the point that people can interpet the bible as anything they wish to answer the previous quote/question about why people KILL each other although it says its sinful to murder.

I believe in school rumble therefore i believe in god. nuff said i's think.

I for one, both love, and hate these discussions, because they go nowhere. I have a friend, who, due to being a presbytarian, used to believe that all catholics, weren't christians.
I being a catholic, kinda contradicted her, and told her i was a christian. It took a whole year to get that settled. And that was my best friend.
So, I cant kinda tell that this discussion isn't going to get very far, before I make anyone angry, I'd like to say that, whatever you believe, really is what you believe, and I'm not here to change it or whatever...the only reason I'm replying, is because I want to voice my opinion. kinda like, i'm christian, but i'm not about to go and tell the world that buddhism is wrong because it contradicts what i've learnt. side note: yes, i am a christian, but not so that i believe that not going to church is a sin, I haven't been to church in ages...

So, I think that religion has its flaws, because, men *or women...if you're feeling feministiy* wrote it.
Let's say Adam and Eve, if they had children, and their children had children, that would mean that they were incest. The Bible says "no" to incest. So...that is kinda contradictory. Though, as my lovely bestie would say "I just didn't like the idea that I had incest background 'cus of Adam and Eve" ...well, believe what you will.

Then there's the whole, how God created the World...what happened to the Universe then? You have to agree with me that the reason it wasn't included was because the people didn't know about these things then...

But yeh...don't get me wrong, even though i'm not a devout christian, i believe in God, or A God, and therefore I believe I can be classified a christian...I went through the whole bapitise thing and everything...which kinda solidifies the fact.
But personally, I think that it's what you THINK that counts, not what you SAY.

Here i'll bring up my friend again... *sorry* last time I spoke to her, she told me how she "ditched a friend" when they were shopping. to her it was pretty much a joke, but when i heard it, i thought that was quite mean of her, i told her i thought it was a bad thing to do. and all she did was tell me she was guilty about it, whiles laffing. sure. v guilty eh?

So to end, I think it's what you personally believe in that's "right", there's no def. right or wrong, and if there was a God, he/she/it would be someone who would want you to live the way YOU want to, that makes you happy-shnappy. Not to follow a book or whatever that was written by humans who had no complete knowledge of the world as we do now.

*million apologies to those i have offended*

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WONGI = a little bit of this and a little bit of that

i agree with you, that was pretty b-itchy, no offence but i raly hate those kind of people who do that sorta thing, if she didn't want her near her than SAY IT TO HER FACE! if you don't like someone then don't even bother bringing them shopping!

on another note....

i agree with your whole reasoning :

i totaly agree, they say that the good book is the words of god but how can it be that when god did no contribution? all of it was done by man.

...the good book is the words of men...

See, most people would just blame God. Thank you.



Killing all the first-born Egyptian sons and skipping the Jews because they killed a lamb and wiped the blood on their door post with hyssop? What an interesting disease.

And it supposedly happened in one night, too. It's fine to try and interpret the Bible in an atheistic way, but to tag on stuff like 'oh, that's not what originally happened' or 'even though that's not said, this probably happened too' defeats your entire point. You can only interpret what's there.



The New Testament is supposedly backed up by Roman records, but meh. It's interesting to note that a lot of the Old Testament prophesies, specifically those concerning the enemies of the Jews, did end up coming true. Right off the top of my head...Babylon and Assyria both fell, and Egypt lost a lot of power. The city of Tyre, which was condemned for being happy at the ransacking of Jerusalem and Jewish captivity, was eventually razed by Alexander the Great.

It doesn't necessarily MEAN anything, all cities fall one day, but just a little note.



This destroys any meaning to morality as easily as atheism does. A murderer is happy while murdering. What does God want him to do, keep killing?

What does our knowledge of the world have to do with anything? If we assume that the Bible was true for them back then, why does us knowing about what we do invalidate that in any way?

I'd argue further, but I still haven't verified my own arguments, so I'll refrain from potentially poking myself in the ass.

One last thing...@people who say 'God's a benevolent god, why does he let bad things happen...'

First off, I'm assuming that with this argument, you've set the stage with the assumption that yes, God exists, and I'll make a further assumption you're talking about the Christian God.

In the beginning, there WAS no strife. Adam and Eve just lived in Eden and had smecks(well, maybe, but what else were they going to do? Cuddle?). Then Eve was tempted by the serpent, ate the apple, blahblahblah.

At this point, sin entered the world, due to Adam and Eve's actions. Humans were no longer 'perfect,' in any sense, but they were 'imperfect.' And because of that, they sinned on a widespread scale. Supposedly, the source of the evils in this world(or, at any rate, the human evils) stem from sin. This is our world. God tried again and again to keep people obedient to him and his laws, but in the end, he gave that up and instead chose to send Jesus.

This world and the upcoming hell are our punishment. If you have an incredibly kind father, but you're just a little maggot who tramples on him both literally and figuratively, do you expect him to keep you from punishment because he's kind? That's a rather stupid expectation.

Doctrine also holds that everyone is condemned to hell, but can be saved if they trust in Jesus Christ as their savior who took the burden of their sins on the cross.

It's not a matter of 'believe in me or go to hell.' It's a matter of 'believe in me, and I'll keep you from going to hell.' To assume the first statement is saying 'hey, we all deserve to go to heaven,' which contradicts...a lot of things. No matter how good you are, you're still repugnant and steeped in sin when seen from God's standpoint. Nobody can be perfect. Therefore, nobody can get into heaven with their own power. That's really the basis of the Christian faith, that you trust in Jesus Christ and repent of your sins(note, that doesn't mean if you keep sinning you'll go to hell, although you still can't just say 'Ah, I believe in Jesus, I'm going to heaven anyway' as an excuse to do itt), and you'll be allowed to go to Heaven despite everything.

This was a show of mercy, not tyranny.

On a related note, I don't see why people have any justification to say 'I don't believe in God because he let my child/husband/father/mother/etc. die.' What sets your family apart from the rest, that you should be protected and they not? What makes them so important that for all the other 200000 people who die untimely deaths you can still 'forgive' God and yet you can't do the same for the 1 person who died that you knew?

It applies to other stuff too, like anti-war people. I'm in an anti-war position myself, but people who say 'I'm anti-war because my son got killed' are just stupid.

Last edited by lambchopsil at 3:33 pm, Jul 1 2007

my point i was trying to get across is that things could have been left out and or unaltered easily.(which you obviously didn't want to take note of) how are we to know that jewish kids didn't die(maybe they died the next day, maybe the Egyptian kids were murdered)? Considering God is "just,"Fair" etc that would mean no discrimination. The first born of a household could be a day old or 30 years old. which means that an innocent baby would be killed just like someone who is older and matured thus "accountable" for their actions. if i recall correctly a 1 year old doesn't know the meaning of Sin. the example of an angel killing indiscriminately the first born of a race of people that he discriminates against goes against the Values of God.(sry for weird sentence)

I'd like to note i've only started thinking this way on things like this since coming to this forum.

Furthermore. happening in one night sounds a bit unexplainable. this is why i said that information could have been left out. other people could have died.

as for it only affecting Egyptians. One could entertain the thought of a hypothetical disease. For example Sickle Cell anemia. while different types of ethnicities do get this disease, it mostly is shown in those of African descent. Food could have been poisoned also. hell, what about health? they didn't exactly have the best hygiene back then. In any case i was just saying that too much trust is put into what is biblically written.

Again what i am trying to say is that i find it easier to believe that
A. egyptians were murdered
or
B. There was an epidemic

and instead of recording EVERYTHING that happened. only some of it was recorded and thus accredited to Divine Punishment with the twist of an angel etc. What kind of a just God up and sends an Angel to kill innocent people?

In any case i didn't mean to offend you. i never said it didn't happen. just hard for me to believe without credibility etc > thus i don't think it happened. its not like it can be proved.

I've always found it odd that God was so active biblically but we never see these kinds of demonstrations of power today. Are all the stories completely true? just food for thought.

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HUBBY of DUBBY

My thoughts, You guys wrote too much stuff so I skimmed through everthing, burn me if you care:

Does it really matter if there's a god or not? If there is a god and you followed what he says basically you lived a good life full of morals and you go to heaven, if you didn't you go to hell. If there is no god, no matter what kind of life you live you will blink out of existence after you die. The fact that God instills fear in people is what keeps most of society in order and the actual fact whether he exists or not is irrelevant. I mean if god did exist but you're starving with a purse full of money sitting in front of you it's not like you're NOT going to steal it and risk dying... It's just better to believe in God and be disappointed rather than to live a completely stupid, sinful life and then find out God exists. I also agree these arguments go nowhere cause there obviously can't be proof that something existed before anything else existed and created everything... it just brings up the question who created God? and it repeats to ask who created the creator of God and such... it's like asking which was first the egg or the chicken...

And god does not "forbid" killing per say... If it is your job to kill and it promotes less killing overall he allows it. Also he doesn't kill people because people don't believe in him or shouldn't there be an army of catholics on another crusade to kill all muslims and non-believers? I mean really...

And it's common sense that God would be much more harsher and bring death during those Old testament times.. those were the times with the Hammurabi code right? (correct me if I'm wrong) I mean those time were much more barbaric and supported "eye for an eye". It's like going through life being belted for stealing by your father, then getting a time out for it by another person.. you'd fear your father's consequences ALOT more and follow him not the retard that gave you a time out...

Last edited by Naturalrice at 1:13 pm, Jul 1 2007

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TLer for Regis, Looking for Work!!

Message me at Naturalrice@gmail.com

The tenth plague wasn't punishing the Egyptians for their sins. It was a punishment on the Egyptian nation for the refusal of the pharaoh to let the Israelites leave. Understand, God didn't discriminate unnecessarily ever, but he did 'discriminate' (though I'm loathe to use the word due to the stigma behind it). The Israelites were his chosen people.

You're misinterpreting 'God.' Whether it's to further your own point or not, I dunno, but either way.



Interesting.



'Could' and 'might' have no place. What do we have? What the Bible says. To say 'they could have left something out' is viable, but holds no water as any sort of proof.

Also, why does it need to be explainable? Your logic is wrong. 'Everything must be explainable by science, so if it's unexplainable, obviously there is something left out.' Why must this be? Why can't it just be accepted for the purposes of the story that yes, an angel of death did come and kill them, rather than try to fabricate a story with no base?



Why are you trying to fabricate a baseless story? Whether the plagues as depicted were true or not remains to be seen, but you've got no better alternative. A disease that affected only the Egyptians and not the Israelites just happening to strike down the first-borns of only the Egyptians coinciding with the time the Israelites were to leave Egypt? It might be noted that Moses/God did warn that the Jews had to kill a lamb and spread it's blood on their door posts with hyssop to avoid the angel's judgement. If we take that at face value, it means that the people who didn't had their first borns killed as well.

Hygiene? The Israelites would've had worse hygiene, due to being at the lower echelon of society. Or, so I'd think. I don't remember them being noted as a race renowned for cleanliness or some such.



This first requires you to believe that God does not exist. The scenarios you put forth are the ONLY scenarios available if God doesn't exist, but if he doesn't, then why do you need the Bible anywho? If he does, then it's much more easily attributable to an angel of death.



What innocents? There isn't a single innocent human on this planet. Babies and people too young to be accountable go to heaven, you know, and every other Egyptian was going to hell anyway. They weren't God's people, and they certainly weren't going to be vindicated by faith.

Your standpoint is 'death sucks.' God's standpoint is 'death sucks, but it's no big deal, it's what comes after that matters.'
God was forcing Pharaoh's hand to let the Israelites go. I had a big example thing typed up, but it's pointless.



You're not offending me. Why would I be offended by this? If Christians were all so thin-skinned, we'd be having daily heart attacks. XD

Anyway. It can't be disproven, either, which leaves us at an impasse. And in the end, I don't think it really matters.



Look at third world countries. Supposedly, anyway. I've never seen a 'miracle' occur, but supposedly, they happen all the time still.

And why should he still be active? Trusting in something that you know is true isn't much of an effort, is it?



'Ctually, for Christians at least, it's 'trust in Jesus Christ as your only savior and you're saved.' That's the basic gist of it. Morals don't really help until you fulfill that first bit.



Your example is actually a mildly famous one. I don't remember who came up with it, but it's pretty nifty. And overly simplistic.

Also, to expect God to have a creator is to limit him to our terms. I don't really feel like explaining it properly right now because I'm running out of time, but I've mentioned something about it before, if you care to look. Otherwise, just wait a bit and remind me.



No, because that'd be stupid. Nobody really knows what he allows. And it doesn't really matter.

Agreed on the latter point, tho.



-\(o__o)/- I don't really remember, so not much comment.

Edit by mod: DO NOT double post

Last edited by lambchopsil at 3:34 pm, Jul 1 2007

I'm confused as to how you can read what i say yet not understand a single word of it. it's really irritating.

yo say:


Who said i fabricated anything? Does the bible portray a negative outlook of God? hell no! instead it boosts him up. The "Savior". he blesses those that believe in him. oh really? is there proof of this besides scribblings of undocumented past? there is no point in trying to validate the bible. i mean really. for example Genesis. if there was no one alive when the world was created, how was this part documented? Divine intervention? who says?

you have no proof and in turn try to attack my UNBLINDED logic.




i think you are the one that is misinterpreting "God". According to your beliefs this God punishes people and interacts with humans on a whim based on his favorites.That is what is shown everywhere in the bible. instead of letting things play out naturally God interferes. Can you honestly say to me that according to the "FACTS" displayed in your holy book that God doesn't discriminate? can you say that he isn't biased? can you say that he is fair? the answer to all this is NO. Prove otherwise. Of course you are going to say i am wrong right? Again of course with no basis.

Furthermore this God intervening is a bit unexplainable. the Israelites are "His people". I scoff at this notion. You're telling me that this God you keep defending picked out a specific race of descendants and decided they are better and have a higher priority over the others races? don't deny my statement, you did say the were his "chosen people"

This is very hypocritical to this "fair and just God that frankly has no right to intervene with daily life and picks sides on his whim.



how is my logic wrong? i never said it had to be explained by science you assumed that yourself. i stated the fact that the story possibly isn't even true.

do you even have any logic? do you know what logic is? An angel coming to kill the first born child of a whole race is a FABRICATED STORY with NO BASE. prove to me other wise. you can't can you. oh wait you can quote the bible right? *cough*


If i recall correctly there were Slaves in America as it developed. God didn't come down on the whites that lived here with a plague or a curse. why not? let me guess. cause blacks aren't his chosen people, right? how was the situation any different from then and biblical times? and don't get into specifics like one picked cotton and one built pyramids or some bull. cause frankly the situations were the same. only different is one is written in a book as his "chosen people" and the other wasn't.

not fair correct? discriminatory correct? makes no sense correct?

let me ask you this. ever been camping? ever told stories whether fables or true? ever told someone about an incident that happened but left out a piece of information? how about adding something to make yourself look better?

i am 100% sure you have done a few of those things i have said above. everyone has. Frankly put there isn't anything to support these deeds of the bible but the bible itself. That in turn makes it unreliable.

It is quite obvious where you stand on the matter since you hold everything in the bible as "Truth". it'd be nice if you opened your eyes a bit.


eek. i came off as an assho*e again. sry

Last edited by Varna at 3:55 pm, Jul 1 2007

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HUBBY of DUBBY

There is almost no point in debating whether or not the bible is true/false, as we have no first hand accounts of what happened.

I recommend these readings

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/upton_sinclair/profits_of _religion.html

Here is a really fast excerpt.



Also http://www.heathensguide.com/ Is great for a few laughs.

haha sounds interesting. i may buy that book. could be a good read.

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HUBBY of DUBBY

Okay I'm just posting here to remind you people that Christians are not the only people that believe in god... I'm muslim, I do believe in god... and most arguments that have been used here for or against the existence of god are meaningless to me. Because my beliefs are differents. Islam, Christianity and Judaism all agree on the big lines. They all have overall the same policies and all. But it's on the small details that you'll find the differences. But guess what... you've all been arguing over these small details...
I for one do believe in god. and no I'm not a religious fanatic and most muslims are not anyway. You know how many muslims are there on this planet? if they all where as crazy as that %/?#!*?!! ben laden... you guys would have been a pretty serious problem.
Why do I believe in god? Well I'm going to say the same thing I said to my atheist friend. (yes some of us even became atheist and no we didn't kill them...)

What do I have to lose in believing in god? let's suppose two scenarios:
1- God exists: I by believing in god, will have a higher chance of going to heaven when I die that if I didn't... and what do I lose?
nothing much. My life is just the same: I love animals and childrens, I help the poor anyway, I don't exactly lie a lot nor do I want to kill anybody... Mostly my life is unchanged. I will still do the few sin now and then. Everybody lies, lust is natural etc...
The only thing that will change compared to the case where I didn't believe is that I get a couple more brownie points with god.

2-God doesn't exist: I even though I believed in god, I would still rot and turn into nothingness when I die. But that is the case also for those who didn't believe. Same result, so it's a draw in this case.

So in the first case, I lose nothing and gain something. In the second case, I lose nothing and gain nothing. So in the end by believing I never lose anything, and have a 50% of gaining something. Quite a good bet imo.

And to reply to a comment by moritana on the sacred war thingy in islam... you got it wrong sorry. Islam does not command you to go in a war against non believers to turn them into muslims. The only sacred wars in islam are those that are defensive in nature. Don't believe what idiots like ben laden and others say. It is to defend your country, or to defend your faith. Suppose that in the neighbouring country there is a minority of muslims that are being persecuted... well you are supposed to defend them. So in a certain way it is defensive in an offensive manner. But war is never to convert people. And christians and jews ar supposed to be our "brothers" in faith. We all believe in the same god after all. So we espicialy should not be attacking them. At least not to convert them.

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