O...k, Naruto and Bleach are not 'crap'. Seriously, I thought that manga readers were intellectuals...

I'm also not saying they're the best, but give them some credit. They are good and there's no denying that. But it can be that it's not your genre. And you don't like reading stories like that.

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Quote from Dr. Love

O...k, Naruto and Bleach are not 'crap'. Seriously, I thought that manga readers were intellectuals...

I'm also not saying they're the best, but give them some credit. They are good and there's no denying that. But it can be that it's not your genre. And you don't like reading stories like that.

I agree, maybe people can´t stand the massive response and the commercial strategies behind them (like making the series longer, adding fillers in anime, etc.) that sometimes change the development of the manga or the anime. I acknowledge Naruto, Bleach and One Piece ´s first volumes were better than the last ones, but they are still ok (personally i like more One Piece and Naruto, got a little bit tired of Bleach).
Naruto isn´t so owerpowered, Sasuke is ( and this is strange, since he isn´t the main character, but well, he pays for the power he got, and that is a good thing, i mean, even if Naruto can get extreme power, it´s so harmful for him that it loses its meaning).
Finally, all the critics you can make towards Naruto, One Piece, Bleach, can be applied to most of the shounen manga going around in more or less degree.
Now i remember, wasn´t the same with Dragon Ball and Pokémon?

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• Golden Kamui

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Quote from Dr. Love

O...k, Naruto and Bleach are not 'crap'. Seriously, I thought that manga readers were intellectuals...

I'm also not saying they're the best, but give them some credit. They are good and there's no denying that. But it can be that it's not your genre. And you don't like reading stories like that.

I agree, maybe people can´t stand the massive response and the commercial strategies behind them (like making the series longer, adding fillers in anime, etc.) that sometimes change the development of the manga or the anime. I acknowledge Naruto, Bleach and One Piece ´s first volumes were better than the last ones, but they are still ok (personally i like more One Piece and Naruto, got a little bit tired of Bleach).
Naruto isn´t so owerpowered, Sasuke is ( and this is strange, since he isn´t the main character, but well, he pays for the power he got, and that is a good thing, i mean, even if Naruto can get extreme power, it´s so harmful for him that it loses its meaning).
Finally, all the critics you can make towards Naruto, One Piece, Bleach, can be applied to most of the shounen manga going around in more or less degree.
Now i remember, wasn´t the same with Dragon Ball and Pokémon?

Yep the main issue i have with these shonen mangas is the recycled ideas, I agree that naruto was fresh when i first read it, but after awhile it got boring and again the filler in the anime destroyed the series for me. I held on a little longer for Bleach but when the newest arc started, the one where they hafta rescue Orihime, I just started drawing way too many parallels with the Soul Society arc and of course it became boring.

Quote from funkmu1

Yep the main issue i have with these shonen mangas is the recycled ideas, I agree that naruto was fresh when i first read it, but after awhile it got boring and again the filler in the anime destroyed the series for me.

Recycled? Could you give me an example of that? No, scratch that, multiple... Since you did say 'recycled ideas' which is plural.

Also why are you judging Naruto based on the anime? Anime is just a by-product. The thing you should be criticizing is the manga.

I held on a little longer for Bleach but when the newest arc started, the one where they hafta rescue Orihime, I just started drawing way too many parallels with the Soul Society arc and of course it became boring.

Never realized that Tite did it on purpose? To create a sense of familiarity? Although the major lines do look alike, the arcs aren't similar in the least.

SS Arc: Rukia being saved. HC Arc: Inoue being 'saved'. Okay, I can see the similarity... 🙄 But look deeper into it. Rukia being forcefully taken away in front of Ichigo, waiting to be executed in SS. Inoue going on her free will to HC, through some 'manipulation' of Aizen, so that he can use her powers. ... Okay, do you see any similarities now?

And I think the 'save the damsel in distress' scenario is being used twice to emphasize Ichigo's two love interests, Rukia and Inoue.

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the recycled ideas is probably the fight scenes,, first u meet the vice captain, than u meet the captain, and after that the main bad guy. its the same in the orhime part, first they meet the low espada, than they meet the stronger ones, and so on, and this happens to all the fighters. and in the fighting its no variation, first they go by the normal sword, than they use shikai or bankai, then the bad guy does the same.
and the plot is kinda weak, i found it cool, but when its only fighting for 10 volumes before something new happens,, and i dont mean changing a strong bad guy for a stronger one. the manga is still readable, but the anime is lost for me.. Naruto is cool though... there people actually die.

But isn't that the deal for 90% of the Shounens? It's more a part of the genre(demographic)...

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Quote from Dr. Love

But isn't that the deal for 90% of the Shounens? It's more a part of the genre(demographic)...

You forget the romancy manga, the sporty manga, and all those genres that are under shonen as well. Idk, Naruto just isn't fresh anymore. I think it's just dragged on for too long. I think the major issue for me is the basic sequential plot of:

1.Protagonist starts out as an idiot but with hidden powers or is a fighting prodigy
2.Protagonist faces first enemy, gets owned
3.Protagonist does some sort of training program to get stronger (usually at an accelerated rate because he's a fighting prodigy or cuz he taps his hidden power)
4.Protagonist goes to face enemy again, this time kicks his ass, but with pages upon pages of dialogue thrown in.
5. repeat steps 2-4 throwing in some subplot to develop history,and characterize minor characters, and kill off some other minior characters

I guess it's just this cycle that sickens me 😔 Perhaps it isn't just Naruto and Bleach, but the whole shonen action epic? genre that bugs me. Anyway, it's safe to say that I'm tired of Naruto and Bleach 😉

Quote from Dr. Love

But isn't that the deal for 90% of the Shounens? It's more a part of the genre(demographic)...

Yeah, it is an integral part of Shounen epics, and honestly most action manga in general, regardless of the demographic.

The point isn't exactly "substance," it's just entertainment, so that's not really surprising and honestly I don't think it really matters. It's not like reading manga is supposed to teach you how to fight. I think the basic plot similarities between arcs- which can actually be found between different series, not even just in the same one- are the issue here, rather than the fight scenes.

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yeah, that is it, that is why when you begin reading manga you only read one or two genres (shonen or shoujo) and then after reading some you get tired and begin changing genres (to seinen or josei), at least in my experience.

This week's favorites:

• Golden Kamui

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Really I never notice that. 😲

but I started with love hine, ai yori aoshi and a few others.

I've followed bleach in both and still like it. but I've watched nearly all of urusie yatsura, bloody funny. But after 60 ep fast tracking Naruto, there seans to be only like 2 or 3 small new bits and all that dull I am eerrr thinking of/I am better than him. Oh I am up to Naruto ep 134 of the 160 I have. Bleach is level pegging.

I do follow other anime/manga, spice and wolf is not to bad.

love and peace

i like both of em'. but only to that extent. just "like". not the best, but not the most terrible ( i'm looking at you, inuyasha!), though this varies per individual of course. opinions and all that.

what i don't like is the absurd amount of rave coming from overly ignorant, blind fanatics, who have never read more than 2 chapters of other manga (mangas? whats the plural?). real narutards and whatever you call overly fanaticals bleach fans, if you will. oh yes, i unfortunately encountered them years ago. the horror!

if theres anything to blame here, for naruto, i'd point my finger to the huge amount of coverage it had on the net, compared to other series. it spreaded like wildfire back then, in forums and chatrooms. from there, it spreads via words of mouth in real life, and like how urban legends are spread, they hear about it from a friend of a friend who heard from another friend of a friend and so on. yea, early on, it was something to talk about, but it just gotten out of hand.

bleach, on the other hand, was more acceptable. the characters were lovable. early on, it had good comedy, and the lack of emphasis on a strong serious storyline gave its laid back pace a sort of charisma, despite the cliches presented. i guess the straw that broke the camel's back was that the backbone, and maybe even the character concept, of the hueco mundo arc was a complete mirror of the ss arc. i don't blame people getting turn of by this. but me? i'm intrigued with kubo's mirror imaging both his characters (try to compare and contrast ichigo and rukia, you'll know what i mean) and storyline (compare and contrast rukia and orihime, as well as the arcs' settings). alas, for the latter, i guess maybe it wasn't as great as kubo thought it'd be. great in theory, but poor upon execution...

Quote from Diokhan

real narutards and whatever you call overly fanaticals bleach fans,

LOL narutard... someone needs to come up with something funny for bleach, i tried... but it was epic fail

I can't say that either are my absolute favorites, but I don't hate them. Of both of them, I prefer Naruto, even though I don't like the character Naruto very much at all.

I've lost interest in Bleach, for the most part, because it's the same formula over and over again. Naruto does the same, sometimes, but at least the suspense is still there, because there is a real possibility that characters will die. Overall, I find the Naruto characters more varied, developed and likable than the Bleach characters.

On the side of Bleach, though, its art is amazing (Kubo is most certainly keeping his female readers in mind) and some arcs and characters are awesome and well-thought-out. Both series have run on for an eternity, and will probably never die shudder but even though they're flawed, they're interesting to read. ^^ When it comes to shounen, one of my favorites would have to be D.Gray-Man, though.

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Naruto and Bleach are far from my favs too but somehow it's more fun to discuss'em. (I'm perhaps too "old" to be reading these series according to some lol). I think the major problem with these series, and the main reason people grow tired of 'em, lies in the way they are presented. I'm certain that any given kid reading either Bleach or Naruto, 10 years after they've finished, would get a whole other impression from those series, reading it all in 1 go, instead of 16 - 20 pages a week like us. It's better to look at the series as a whole imo. At least an arc as a whole.
The series are being milked, no doubt about it. If you ask me it's really a shame, but what can you do? The pace in the mangas could at least be doubled. And the animes suffer 'cause they have to wait for a manga. On screen it really doesn't fit when the pace is this slow. Personally I've never liked any of the animes 'cause of this. They have their moments, but the production quality is way too poor for my taste. It's laughable that they earn so much money on something this poorly produced. The mangas may not be top notch either, but they got way more stable quality and a personal touch so many animes lack in general.

Omg I really went over my head here lol. Better stop it. 😀 😎

mwa ha ha ha...
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It's kind of vogue to hate on Naruto and Bleach because they are so popular, they fall into the "cliche" pile. However, when you look at other shounen manga that are fairly "cliche" (or at least, have the same formula), HunterxHunter, Kekkaishi, Fairy Tale, they are generally well received. Why?

Because Naruto and Bleach have been so popular for so long, they became lackluster and overdone. It's like hearing a fun song on the radio and going "oooh, I like it!" Then hearing it a thousand times a day and going, "If I hear it one more time I'm going to strangle somebody." It's not that they are horrible mangas. I mean, I've been in manga too long, I have seen and read the horrible mangas, they are far from it. It's just they are not absolutely great when hundreds of people make it out to be the greatest thing since Internet porn.

I still like Naruto. Yeah, it's not perfect, but I've been in the manga so long that I love the characters enough to read, I want to know what happens later, I like the little moments Kishimoto puts in. There are times when I am disappointed, of course, when a chapter makes me "ugh, get on with it already." But there are times when I absolutely love a chapter.

Bleach has always been a fun manga. remembers before the anime and how awesome the fandom was. This particular arc, however, has crashed and burned into a neverending repetitive cycle of regurgitated fights. I have a feeling that if you stop chapter by chaptering it, let the arc finish, and then read it all the way through it would be a.lot. better.

As far as anime goes, Naruto shippuden fails me as a fan. I know they fired at least two of the horrible teams of the first arc, but now we can watch Naruto transform into Kyuubi for three episodes in good animation instead of bad! Don't watch the Bleach anime, was disappointed in it since the third episode first came out and never looked back.