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Radically kind or radically cruel, your choice.

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RattixEmpire
Post #544822
user avatar
A silly pumpkin
Member

1:18 am, Apr 10 2012
Posts: 170


Please don't skim read over this and say, 'oh, vegan, never mind, I already know why eating meat is better' Actually read the posts, because I don't think many people are at this stage. The amount of questions I have answered over and over again is getting tiresome.

I have said this in other posts. If you eat animals and animals products because you rely on them for survival then it is ok. It is because the majority of the the population eat meat because they enjoy it, not because without meat they would wither and die.

Perhaps I should have made myself more clear, go drink your mothers breast milk now that you are a fully developed adult human and already weaned of it. Now, I may be wrong, but sucking on your mothers breasts when you are over the age of eight is a gross thought. Once an animal has been weaned off milk, it never, ever needs it again in its life. Humans are the only animals to drink another animals milk once weaned off their own mothers.

Check out other posts for more info, and if you want to look into the books Skinny Bitch and Forks Over Knives, they are very informative and a huge amount of research has gone into making them. Gary Yourofsky has lectures on youtube about the vegan diet and life style which are easy to find and are also very informative. Please stop deliberately closing your eyes to anything that may change your opinion.

If people just want to cut down on meat from this post (I have lost count how many times I have said this) then great, I am simply putting forward a vegan diet because I know from personal experience that it makes you feel great mentally and physically.

Once again I will need to make myself more clear, you wouldn't eat a three year old human because you like the taste. You wouldn't cultivate toddlers, you wouldn't rip their teeth out without pain killers, you also wouldn't castrate them without pain killers. If we did that to three year old humans, who pigs are just as intelligent as, you would be put in prison for life or perhaps given the death penalty. But it depends were you are in the world.

There aren't going to be any changes unless people start standing up against them, and the only way to effectively do that is to refuse to support and buy what you are trying to stop. If there is demand, it is made, if there is little demand, there is little produced.

I don't believe the words "but they can't help it" have ever been on my posts, it is natural to drink milk when you are an infant, it is made for infants so that they grow very quickly. Drinking milk as adults is the problem and incredibly unhealthy. I don't know wether animals can or can't hep wether they eat meat, but we can and by eating animals and animal products we are not only putting our own personal health at risk, but the environment at risk, at the same time as torturing, murdering and raping innocent sentient beings. The point isn't wether other animals eat meat, the point is that humans aren't doing it to survive, just look at how many people have sad, I love meat, mate tastes good, meat, yum. Yeah, I think meat is delicious too, but I hold it back. Please look at some of my older posts as I have already said this, many times.

And yes, it is a lifestyle that I have chosen, however by not having this kind of life style, people are killing themselves and taking the environment down with them, and that already cops enough from us. I am hardly going to come over to your house and force a stick of celery down your throat, and I am hardly doing that now. I am simply answering every challenge put to me and putting a post up, it is your choice to read it. People are getting defensive because they don't want to think about their eating habits. Grow some balls and make some actually informed choices before you get all defensive on me.

There has been a familiar pattern to these posts, I answer everything put to me and then people start to get irrational and even talking about the ethical issue of it (snort) what ethical issue. Killing animals for pleasure or killing animals only when your survival depends on it, hmm, and here I was thinking that was pretty straight forward.

We don't want to have to think about what we are eating, because we want to keep on eating it. I was like that as well, I didn't become vegan because I didn't like the taste of meat dairy or eggs, I didn't go vegan because I thought it would be a bundle of laughs. Can you please try to think that, perhaps, to do something so extreme, something that my friends and some of my family actively go against, I have to have a damn good reason why I am doing it.

Check out interviews with vegans on youtube, they aren't all crazy, you might find some you actually know about an like.

So, just because it is a lost cause we shouldn't even bother with doing the right thing, what a commendable life philosophy. smile
I haven't told anyone you must not eat meat, you must never eat meat again, all I am doing is answering everything put to me about why we shouldn't eat meat.



"i wonder if u will see a cow complaint about being the dinner of many? did they really do that or is just our selfish idea that we have to protect them cus we think they suffer?....

edit: i also try to eat organic meat when i can but is only cus it benefit me, for healty reasons...i really can't save the animal world..."

I think that no matter how you look at it, a cow isn't going to be overjoyed that they are being eaten, I mean, if I attacked you and chopped your leg off and served it at my dinner party, you wouldn't think that it was an ideal situation. Since we know for a fact that all animals do have the same sort of nervous system as us, we do know as a fact that they will feel having their throat cut as much as a human would. And, how is it a selfish desire to want to protect something being killed for the selfish and greedy desire of another of our species to eat it for pleasure. Surely a life is more important that your lunch.

Your edit at the end also shows that you are attempting to justify yourself, so you do acknowledge that killing animals for pleasure is wrong, you just don't want to admit it.

Last edited by RattixEmpire at 1:32 am, Apr 10

________________
We work in the dark, we do what we can, we give what we have, out doubt is our passion and our passion is our task, the rest is the madness of art. Henry james
Scyfon
Post #544831
user avatar
Mome Basher
Member

1:58 am, Apr 10 2012
Posts: 3380


Seriously RattixEmpire, nobody likes a preacher.
If you say that you're not forcing anything on anyone, then your first post should have sufficed.
There's no need to rape the forums with walls of text explaining just how much of a wonderful and righteous human being you are.
Wanna make a difference? Wanna change the world? Then go about it a different way. What you're doing is just annoying people. You're not opening any eyes.

Quote
What of these less noticeable organisms?
Every time you shower, every time you wash, your hands, hair etc, you are killing microorganisms.
Do you not consider those as "lives worth saving", or do they have no value since you can't see them/ they don't have pleading eyes to make you feel sorry for them?


Quote from Mamsmilk
Just remember to eat healthy kids.
Moralism won't defeat biochemistry.
People go vegan when they are exposed too much to aggravated confrontation and Disney movies. Everything we eat is alive in some sense. Just because plants and such are less like us in structure than animals does not make it any less an ethic choice to end their lives to prolong yours than to eat animals.
You do not eat for an ism, you eat for your body. No matter what you eat, you are directly killing something by eating it and indirectly killing something by competing for food sources.
No matter what you eat or when you eat or how it was born and for what purpose, all living beings aim to stay alive. Every choice you make limits some other life. Even if you grew that stuff yourself, you eat food that some pest could use for the brood.


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RattixEmpire
Post #544848
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A silly pumpkin
Member

3:27 am, Apr 10 2012
Posts: 170


Terribly sorry, but as I said, you don't have to read it. I am not trying to preach I am attempting to counter every argument put to me, I am out to prove a point, not to be liked. If you can come up with an alternative method then I would be happy to take it up, until then I will continue to argue my case while I still have a sound argument.

Sure everything we eat is alive, however fruit is designed by the plant it grows on to be picked and eaten in order to spread their seeds, therefore it does not kill a plant to pick and apple, it also will not hurt the plant in any way. Plants and microorganisms don't have advanced nervous systems because they can't run away, they have no use for feelings since for the majority of them, it is only when they are a seed or spoor that they can move about. As I have said, we do still need to eat to survive, however for many people, a plant based diet is all they need. Because we still need to eat, we need to make a choice, eating something that has an advanced nervous system, or eating something that will not feel pain.

Microorganisms also don't have nervous systems and they breed, like plants very quickly. We do need to draw a line somewhere, I draw my line at animals that have advanced nervous systems. Just because you can't save the microorganisms, doesn't mean you can't protect those big soppy eyed animals. People can only do what they can do, but people aren't trying to see what it is they can do. Vegan is very easy, vegetarian is easier and cutting down on meat is the easiest option, but all of them can make a difference to the animals we can save and protect. I am eating stuff that another pest could use, but it isn't in my habit to pick the tomatoes with worms in them already, and there is plenty to go around for the animals that naturally come into your garden when you have your own veggie patch. If we stopped using herbicides and pesticides on our crops and if parks near our houses had fruit trees, or even if there were communal veggie patches, there would be more than enough to go around for the humans and the animals. Land currently being used for crops could be given back to nature, it is because of big industry that countries are loosing their natural habitats and that our echo systems are in trouble.

________________
We work in the dark, we do what we can, we give what we have, out doubt is our passion and our passion is our task, the rest is the madness of art. Henry james
BlackOrion
Post #544849
user avatar
Not-BlackOrion
 Member

3:56 am, Apr 10 2012
Posts: 761


Had you ever tough that maybe it's not that they won't read what you post but rather that what you post is terrible and nobody can relate to it?
You might try to defend your self with your arguments rat, but pathetic answers won't ever be enough to counter a thing. Not to mention that you are lying your a... quite a lot, try and reread the whole tread again.

And what with the "i'm not trying to push my believes bla bla" bull-horn with a title like "Radically kind or Radically cruel, your choice"?



I was trying to keep my self down but yours is the single most stupid argument i had ever read.


Quote
So, just because it is a lost cause we shouldn't even bother with doing the right thing, what a commendable life philosophy.



The right thing? How come you don't ever catch on the fact that you are helping no one and doing nothing right? Are you silly enough to believe that some living creatures deserve better treatment just because you think they are pretty enough, or big enough or they are more closely related to you?
Or are you ignoring that to feed vegetables to all the people on the word we need to take food away from others animals? did you know that the most painful way of dying (after been burn alive) is to die of hunger?



Did you seriously ignored Scyfon quotes?



-this complete line was CENSORED-


I really hate you


Do you want to do the right thing? go to a forest, and let your self be eaten by the animals and maggots, you won't ever waste nothing again smile

I couldn't care less if someone goes veg, but saying
Quote
I got made at people when they ask me "why are you a veg?", when the question is "Why are you not mad "
and then saying
Quote
I am not trying to preach

Quote
I am not trying to push my belief on people

Is enough to make me mad.



mizaki2100
Post #544851
user avatar
Becoming a Star!
 Member

4:05 am, Apr 10 2012
Posts: 357


It might be cruel, but isn't it so, that it just happen that we're on top of the food chain? If all humans started going vegan and leaving the cows, the pigs, and all of them, one way or another, some other species would come and grab the top spot and start ravaging those animals.

Note: I only read the first, second, and fifth pages of this thread.

On another note, my thoughts on the food stuff is that as long as it's good and would keep me alive, I'm fine with it.

Yes, I buy those organic stuff at the supermarket. That's my tiny bit support against too much animal cruelty. But that's it. No way I'm going to give up meat. I've already limit myself to three meals of meat a week, any more than that is torturous especially for someone like me.




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Dragonfiremule
Post #544854
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A Person
Member

4:17 am, Apr 10 2012
Posts: 2098


I'm sorry, but people have been eating meat for thousands of years. Yes, it's not a biological necessity- yet at the same time, meat is a readily available source of easily digestible protein that's available in large amounts. Thinking in a historical context, what would have the maximum energy profit- spending a day or so hunting a bison or other large creature that can potentially yield 1000+ pounds of meat, or trying to collect the same weight worth of seeds/nuts? It's simply impractical in a this context as hunter-gatherers to solely rely on gathering.

In a more modern context, it is still rather impractical, and in much the same way. A 1lb bag of almonds is between $5-$16( with the $16 being for organic). A 1lb pound of meat is $1.50-$15 depending on what kind you get, with $15 being for Filet Mignon. Now, look at the fact that almonds have 6-8 grams of protein per ounce. A chicken breast will have anywhere from 8-10 grams, while most cuts of beef have 7-10grams. Now, I can get a 5lb bag of Chicken breasts at a regular (non-bulk) grocery store for $8. If 1lb=16oz and there's 6grams of protein in an oz of chicken breast, that's 640grams of protein for $8. At minimum wage you would only have to put a little over of hour of work into it for those 640 grams of protein. That's a ridiculously high amount of energy in comparison to the amount put into it.

I will admit that there are some cheaper sources of vegetarian proteins then nuts, but they still cannot be compared to the sheer grams of protein per amount of energy put in as meat. Take lentils, for instance. They're the cheapest source of non-meat protein I can think of, at only $2 per lb on average. They have 7-10g of protein per oz. That would still only be $10 for 560 g. However, with vegetarian sources of protein you have one more thing to worry about- the fact that they're incomplete proteins. So added on to the price of the lentils would be rice, which is still only $2 or so per lb with around 4g an ounce. That would make getting 880g of a complete protein using 5lb lentils+ 5lbrice $20, vs. the $8 for the 640 grams of protein from the 5lb bag of chicken. Now, let's match the prices. So, if we have $20 worth of chicken, that would be 12.5lbs. That means for $20 we'd get 1,400 g of protein from chicken vs. the 880g from the $20 we spent on lentils/beans.

Note- all prices are for uncooked packages

Last edited by Dragonfiremule at 4:50 am, Apr 10

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Quote
Does the walker choose the path, or the path the walker?
Seijurou
Post #544859
user avatar
✯ Sarcastic
 Member

4:54 am, Apr 10 2012
Posts: 597


Wow, five pages of walls of text in just two days; this is a busy thread. I wonder when it is going to get locked.

So you want others to be vegans. It is not wise to tell others to run before they walk, you know.

Everyone who is against you seems to focus on the vegetarian aspect, but what about your extreme approach?

What's wrong with drinking cows' milk? Kids are often told to do so in order to grow strong bones.

If the nervous system is your issue, animals can be killed in such a way they do not feel anything.

There are many laws already to protect animals; too many, actually.

A guy killed an animal that entered his yard with a shovel so that his children are protected, and when he told an animal rights' group to pick up the body, the man was arrested for being 'cruel.'

Ridiculousness and foolishness come from radicals looking for problems that do not exist.

You can be fair to humans or to animals, your choice.

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Badkarma
Post #544860
user avatar
An F to judge M!
Member

5:06 am, Apr 10 2012
Posts: 364


...

I can't read this crap anymore. Look, Rattix, buddy, pal. See, you're NOT "simply answering every challenge put to you" Or rather, maybe that's the problem. Your answers ARE simple. TOO simple. And repetitive.

Before you read the rest of this post, understand that I stand on no side. I'm only telling you this from an impartial reader's standpoint, to the topic starter.

Advice: If you have to repeat your written words in the absence of furthering a point, then your written words were flawed or need elaboration. Example:

Quote from RattixEmpire
If you sit down for dinner and refuse to think about what you are eating, then you know, deep down inside, that what you are doing is fundamentally wrong, and damaging to both you and the environment.


Yeah? How. Don't tell me to read "Forks over Bitches" or "Skinny Knives" either, cause that's some other clown's opinion. What's your experience, or at least tell me what the movie and book has taught you. Wanna change a mind? Do work.

I'm just putting this out there as an impartial reader of this thread:

Habitual heavy smoking will likely kill you.

Habitual heavy drinking will likely kill you.

There is undeniable proof of both.

I can say that till I'm blue in the face, yet my drunken, smoking friends and co-workers will always tell me how "their dad/uncle/mom/grandpa/whatever" smoked a carton a day - while chugging a fifth - and died naturally of old age.

Even if I lay down ALL the facts of how and why inhaling smoke will eventually kill them, they don't care.

YOU'RE trying to explain why eating meat - something humans have done and based diets around since... ever - is harmful, and don't offer any real insight as to how it's so damn bad for us. Oh, you say it's unnecessary, but never seem to elaborate on the damaging part.

The answer may be obvious to you, me and the author of "Little Slut", but it's not obvious everyone else, so maybe you oughta explain in ways other than "it's not natural to drink milk".

Quote from RattixEmpire
Humans need to restrain themselves because eating meat is killing the environment around us. Because plants take up so little room and water to grow, if every human were to go vegan, there would be allot less starving children in the world, I can't remember the exact statistics, sorry.


Really? Is this explained in "Bitch under Knife" and "Spork" too?

Quote from RattixEmpire
I don't know wether animals can or can't hep wether they eat meat, but we can and by eating animals and animal products we are not only putting our own personal health at risk, but the environment at risk, at the same time as torturing, murdering and raping innocent sentient beings.


Again. No explanation.

Quote from RattixEmpire
If the space used to rear animals was made into crops, and those crops allong with the cropps currently being fed to the animals we raise for slaughter were given to developing countries, hundreds of children wouldn't be dying a minute from malnutrition.


Almost! Hey, you almost explained yourself! Now tell me the name of the kind cattle farmers that'll free their livestock so they can build a farm that creates food for third world countries, and the kind men and women in the shipping industry that'll continually deliver all this food, pro-bono.

I agree that children dying is certainly an immediate problem, but a cutesy donation-based solution isn't exactly a permanent fix.

And again, I'm only trying to prod you a bit here, since you never explain yourself as well as you should.

Quote from RattixEmpire
people are killing themselves and taking the environment down with them, and that already cops enough from us.


...

Repeat of rhetoric does not an augment make. As Scyfon said, you're not opening any eyes; you're only repeating the same junk without even offering to AT LEAST come to an understanding with those that want to meet you half-way.

Like melon-ramune-freak, who sees your point on the animal cruelty side, and offers a compromise...

Quote from melon-ramune-freak
But the problem is how we get our meat or animal products. Many times the animals are kept in inhumane conditions that are just indescribable. That's the problem. I admit that's the problem, that's why I get my milk, cheese, eggs, etc. from local farms where I know the conditions the animals are in, where I know what the owners are doing to the animals, and where I know the animals are safe, cared for, and loved. Is there something wrong with that? What is wrong with taking milk from a cow that is well cared for and happy? It's a symbiotic relationship. The cow is happy, the human is happy.


...yet got no real response, so she politely asked again...

Quote from melon-ramune-freak
And I'm sorry, you still haven't answered my question on why is is not right to take animal products from animals that are safe, happy and well cared for. The cow doesn't mind humans taking her milk, so why should humans restrain themselves from drinking cow milk as long as the cow is happy and well cared for? I don't see a problem with that and I don't understand why you see a problem with it.


...to which she gets the same rhetoric...

Quote from RattixEmpire
Humans don't protect or nurture the animals we get milk, eggs or wool from, often they don't care, there are of course exceptions, however this is the norm. Dairy cows are raped with a metal rod to get pregnant, once they have the calf it is taken from them, if it is male, it is killed, if it is female it lives the same life as its mother. The machines that milk the cows give them infections in their udders which is very painful and leads to puss getting into the milk. yum.

Sheep are shaved for their wool so closely that they get painful sunburns, when they aren't shaved they get maggots living in their wool and eating them alive. Lambs shaved too early may die of exposure, and yes this does happen.

In the egg industry only female chicks are needed, male chicks are just killed since it is a different type of chicken used in the chicken meat industry.


...that completely misses the point of her individualistic question.

Long story short, pick your battles better, and if you're borrowing arguments and facts from a book or movie, provide them, or explain them. Don't just toss general ideals to the carnivores and expect them to understand. It's you against the world, and I want a better show. Do. Work.

Last edited by Badkarma at 6:38 am, Apr 10

Silent Howl
Post #544862
user avatar
Member

5:15 am, Apr 10 2012
Posts: 83


I really like animals, there are some I stoped eating because i didn't find any place where they were grown in an good environement..though I'm not vegan, nor vegetarian, I don't eat meat that much cause of the bad taste it has..

facts:

humans has always survived with few animal product..estimation was 85-95% vegetal against 5% to 15% animals..the americain of today eat about 75 to 85 of animal product, which is not too good for the biology of the human body..

humans are meant to drink milk from the birth until 6 years old...after that, the production of lactase decreases since the human is supose to stop drinking it...but some mutation permit the human to consume this product..the ones who have lactose intolerance are ones that doesn't have that peculiar mutation...mostly people who doesn't have acces to large milk supplies (african, some mediteranean countries...)

a lot diseases come from the eating of animal flesh...mostly because of our ways of feeding and breeding..and the nasty habit of human to eat much more than supposed to.

some animals are at the same level in the food chains as humans, those are especially toxic if eaten often...mostly because human has polluated the earth and water..and the more the higher the animal is, the more it get inflicted with residual matter of polution...

facts are facts even concealed ones, the way of the majorities is not always the right one

I value life and I dislike people who are not informed. it is important to ask questions, because something that one does not seek, one can not find it...

I have some quotes for you folks...some are funny, but all make one thinks

Quote
Isn't man an amazing animal? He kills wildlife by the millions in order to protect his domestic animals and their feed. Then he kills domestic animals by the billions (9 billion in the U.S. alone in 1996) and eats them. This in turn kills man by the millions, because eating all these animals leads to degenerative - and fatal - health conditions like heart disease, stroke, kidney disease, and cancer. So then man tortures and kills millions more animals to look for cures for these diseases. Elsewhere, millions of other human beings are being killed by hunger and malnutrition because food they could eat is being used to fatten domestic animals. Meanwhile, some people are dying of sad laughter at the absurdity of man, who kills so easily and so violently, and once a year sends out cards praying for "Peace on Earth".D coats


Quote
We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals.
Immanual Kant


Quote
Deer hunting would be fine sport, if only the deer had guns.
William S. Gilbert¸¸
Hunting is not a sport. In a sport, both sides should know they're in the game.
Paul Rodriguez


Quote
Lisa Simpson: "Do we have any food that wasn't brutally slaughtered?"
Homer Simpson: "Well, I think the veal died of loneliness."
The Simpsons


Quote
When it comes to having a central nervous system, and the ability to feel pain, hunger, and thirst, a rat is a pig is a dog is a boy.
Ingrid Newkirk



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BlackOrion
Post #544867
user avatar
Not-BlackOrion
 Member

5:40 am, Apr 10 2012
Posts: 761


Ok, why should i lie? i never actually get to read this
Quote
Because plants take up so little room and water to grow, if every human were to go vegan, there would be allot less starving children in the world,


Till badkarma post...

o god.. do you really believe that?

do you really think that if there was a way of getting enough food for the word to be well feed and that all it needs is a little land and water we wouldn't be eating that already?
If you don't want to believe it would happen due to humans good nature think of it from a economical point of view after reading "Dragonfiremule" comment.

Please don't believe any of that bull-crap, i live in an agricultural oriented country and i can tell you for certain that:

For growing, a plant needs to take nutrients and minerals from earth. After harvesting the land a few times it needs to "rest", this can take a long time if what we crop was a plant with a high lvl of proteins (for example soy leaves the earth in such a state that it needs several years to get back to shape, let alone be useful for farming any sooner)
So farmers soon need to get land in better shape, and since forests have the best kind of land for harvesting.,,,

This is going on right now and if you don't believe me do google it.


Also, for the one over me, What with The Simpson reference?, Lisa had been show as a Hipster that just want to get attention going against the system in more that one chapter too, i don't think you should use her as a reference, even if as a joke.


not to mention than "USA" (notice that i did not said america) and that number is extremely partial, the diet of humans, like any other animal, change a lot depending on they location. Some cultures used to eat mainly human meat in south america pre Columbian times.

And the milk we drink, would be throw away if we didn't drink it. If a cow that is used to be milked and you suddenly stop their udder would get swollen and it probably would catch "mastitis" (sorry that i don't know the English term for this ) it is better to feed the calf with the "calastro" (again that's Spanish) that happens to be the first milk a cow gives and that is not feed to humans.

It is important to notice that drinking milk is an excellent way of obtaining nutrients with out necessarily damaging the animal and is as old a costume as humans cultures, since we do it
almost since we started to grow animals for food.


I'm pretty sure my grammar was terrible on this comment but I'm half sleep and i suck at it when i'm full awake, in a related note i'm a bit sorry about my earlier post, i'm not my self when i lack sleep

Last edited by BlackOrion at 5:49 am, Apr 10

RattixEmpire
Post #544869
user avatar
A silly pumpkin
Member

6:10 am, Apr 10 2012
Posts: 170


It is time to quote from Skinny Bitch. This is the health side of it if you don't want to hear what happens to the animals.

"It is a complete myth that we need massive amounts of protein. Too much protein-especially animal protein-can impair our kidneys; leach calcium, zing and vitamin B, iron, and magnesium from our bodies; and cause osteoporosis, heart disease, cancer and obesity. In addition high amounts of protein can damage our tissues, organs, and cells, contributing to faster aging. Yikes! .............."

"Chemical pesticides are often sprayed directly onto the skin of animals to ward of parasites, insects, rodents, and fungi. In addition, these animals are given food treated with pesticides. On factory farms, bigger is better. More meat, milk and eggs means more money for the farmers. So to grow them larger and have them produce more, animals are given given steroids and growth hormones. But what is happening to the people who eat these fattened animals? Young girls are experiencing an early onset of puberty at epidemic proportions. Many scientists attribute this to all of the hormones in chicken, meat, and milk that are forced upon children. Basically every time you consume factory-farmed chicken, beef, veal, pork, eggs or dairy, you are eating antibiotics, pesticides, steroids, and hormones."

And yes, I did get the thing about sucking your mothers breasts from this.

"Go suck your mothers tits. Go on. Suck your mother's tits. You think this is ridiculous? It is. Get ready to use your head. When a woman gives birth, her body produces milk and she nurses her child. Breast milk can grow and 8-pound newborn into a 24-pound toddler. Sounds pretty fattening, huh? It is. By design, it is intended to allow for the biggest growth spurt of a persons entire life. Breast milk alone can accommodate for a 300 percent weight gain in a twelve month period. When her child is anywhere from 12 to 24 months old, a mother stops breast feeding. Her milk dries up. The child will never drink breast milk again.
Cows, like all mammals, are much the same. Their bodies produce milk only when they give birth. Contrary to popular belief, they don't need to be milked-ever. Their udders, like a women's breast, exist even when there is no milk in them. There is one major difference however. Cows' milk, by design, grows a 90-pound calf into a 2000-pound cow over the course of two years. It allows calves to double their birth weight in forty-seven days and leaves their four stomachs feeling full..."

Alright, you are probably sick of quotes so if you still don't believe me, check out The China Study, biggest study done on the relationship between diet and disease.

Before everyone starts hating on me, do the real research, its not me that is killing you. I would have gotten some more quotes out of Forks Over Knives, but I seem to have misplaced it... again. There is a huge amount of information out there, just look for it. Look up the studies done on the worlds diet, the internet will be full of it, or you can buy the books. I think you will see, there is very little that shows that meat based diets are in any way healthy. Skinny Bitch is actually for people who want to slim up, however it is a super healthy way to do it and a huge amount of research has gone into it. Forks Over Knives is even better if you want straight out facts, studies and evidence, it even has a recipe section. Yay! smile

BlackOrion, I'm sorry if I have made you upset, but I'm not lying, if I was, I wouldn't be going this far, I would have settled down with my book for the day and not bothered attempting to convince you all.

Yeah, vegetables strip the soil of its nutrients, but they don't poison the earth, and they don't poison humans.

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We work in the dark, we do what we can, we give what we have, out doubt is our passion and our passion is our task, the rest is the madness of art. Henry james
BlueHaro
Post #544871 - Reply to (#544854) by Dragonfiremule
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6:49 am, Apr 10 2012
Posts: 131


Quote from Dragonfiremule
I'm sorry, but people have been eating meat for thousands of years. Yes, it's not a biological necessity- yet at the same time, meat is a readily available source of easily digestible protein that's available in large amounts. Thinking in a historical context, what would have the maximum energy prof ...


I will have to agree with Dragonfiremule. Being solely vegan or even vegetarian can be very uneconomical. Since plants are incomplete proteins (do not contain all the essential amino acids you need for your body to make proteins-allows your body to function properly), you would need to eat multiple different kinds of plants (adds to the cost) to get the same nutritional value as eating a piece of meat (complete protein that contains all the amino acids you need). Vegetables/plants are also not as satiating as meats. A small piece of meat (high in protein and contains fat) can make you feel fuller than eating a bowl of vegetables. For a smaller cost, a person can feel satisfied with a piece of meat. More bang for the buck?

I guess it can be considered as a sad state of society...but a person can buy a "full meal" at McDonalds with a high calorie count (hamburger with fries, satisfying combination lol...) for a cheaper price than a salad there dead . It's the same with fruits/vegetables/nuts in the grocery store...

but yea, this topic seems to be getting slightly out of hand. It feels as if there is mostly ignoring or bashing comments going on cry

Last edited by BlueHaro at 6:57 am, Apr 10

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RattixEmpire
Post #544876
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A silly pumpkin
Member

7:22 am, Apr 10 2012
Posts: 170


Alright, quote one from Badkarma
The reason why I am telling everyone to read Forks over Knives and Skinny Bitches was because that actually has all the health benefits of eating plant based diets. As well as the health problems involving meat based diets, as you would have seen in the quotes put up directly from Skinny Bitches. Those aren't books full of opinion, the evidence gathered in them is from scientific research.

I have been trying to get people to do the research themselves and I had some suggested good books and documentaries to watch. You can find it anywhere of the internet, not just from what I have suggested. The reason why I am not putting up very much evidence is because, the ammount of information I would have to sift through before finding the information relevant to your arguments. Then because I don't put the entire document there, you bring me a side to the argument also covered in that document, so please look it up yourselves.

Second quote, not to sure, Skinny Bitch doesn't, I can't find Forks over Knives, I think it is in my school locker but Earthlings does have the problems that this life style causes due to the amount of wastage the animals create while they are still alive and once they are dead. Remember, cows burp Carbon Monoxide and that is actually having quite a party up in our atmosphere. Also, that one is easy to google, I know cause I just did. smile It isn't hard to look these up for yourselves.

Quote three

Yeah, I know I am repeating myself allot, but, seriously, have you read the questions, they all require the same answer.

Quote from melon-ramune-freak

Yeah, that is a great point, but having happy animals in factory farms isn't law, and businesses want to make the most money they can, which means using the cheapest possible methods. What the business can get away with, the business will do. Unless the demand for animal friendly produce increases, and people start screaming at the government to do something, they aren't going to change the way they do things.

Cows don't mind humans taking their milk, but as I have pointed out in the quotes section, cows milk isn't good for humans, its meant for baby cows and has strongly researched links to prostate cancer. Also, in Africa, no dairy is consumed, except for in one place, that is the only place in that has osteoporosis.

BlueHero, yeah, calories are not nutrients, and eating a wide variety of vegetables is far healthier than just eating meat, and it is more interesting. Also, there is a quote there about protein and how you need fibre, plants are the only places you can get fibre, so if you want to easily take a dump, I wouldn't advise meat, or McDonalds. Have you seen Super Sized Me? Also, a main point I am trying to make is that most humans don't need to eat meat in order to survive, but it is for convenience. How is what is convenient more important than an animals life. The reason McDonalds is so cheap is because there is basically nothing in their food. If you cook your own food that is veggie based, not only is is very good for you, but it will also be cheaper than if you were to buy meat with it.

I am also trying not to tell people to walk before they can run, you don't have to jump right into vegan or vegetarian, I am simply pointing out the benefits of a vegan diet, the closer you get to a vegan diet, the healthier you become. Please do your own research as to why.

Ok, did that get everything, if I have missed something, just point it out to me again and I will do my best to answer it in full. Before asking me, please do your own research as that will often provide better answers than me. If you find out something, also please put it up.

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We work in the dark, we do what we can, we give what we have, out doubt is our passion and our passion is our task, the rest is the madness of art. Henry james
Damnedman
Post #544882
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Pro-crastinator
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8:10 am, Apr 10 2012
Posts: 604


It seems you have researched much about why being a vegan is good. But the reason why your argument (pardon my french) sucks balls is that you only give one perspective to the issue. Like when you say milk is bad for humans, well here's a different view: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2442/is-cows-milk-th e-worst-beverage-on-earth. I'm sure your english teacher in grade school has taught you that persuasive essays need to address both sides of the issue. Now get out there and research why eating meat and dairy products can be good for you and disprove them before you get all gung ho about being vegan. In the meantime, I'll enjoy my pork bun.

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BlueHaro
Post #544883 - Reply to (#544876) by RattixEmpire
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8:15 am, Apr 10 2012
Posts: 131


Quote from RattixEmpire
BlueHero, yeah, calories are not nutrients, and eating a wide variety of vegetables is far healthier than just eating meat, and it is more interesting. Also, there is a quote there about protein and how you need fibre, plants are the only places you can get fibre, so if you want to easily take a dump, I wouldn't advise meat, or McDonalds. Have you seen Super Sized Me? Also, a main point I am trying to make is that most humans don't need to eat meat in order to survive, but it is for convenience. How is what is convenient more important than an animals life. The reason McDonalds is so cheap is because there is basically nothing in their food. If you cook your own food that is veggie based, not only is is very good for you, but it will also be cheaper than if you were to buy meat with it.

However, calories are a measure of energy that a food can provide you. Higher calories in food is more readily produced energy for your body to function. It can be a the difference between starvation and at least not being hungry. Sure fast food is convenient, however not everyone has easy access to a grocery store. I mean...fast food restaurants just seem to pop up conveniently in poor neighborhoods more than a local grocery store (at least in the USA). It provides a cheap source of high calories/energy. It's a sad epidemic of reality...high calories from fast food are just so highly satisfying and fully provide for your energy needs (though it tends to provide more than you need-hence fat/obesity-and not for your other nutritional needs-which can make you feel shitty) dead

On the other hand, you didn't take into account the prices of vegetable/foods/nuts...healthy food is expensive. Being a vegetarian or a vegan is also expensive. And no, veggie based food you can make yourself is not cheaper than meat if you want to cover your nutritional needs (such as protein content since vegetables are incomplete proteins). Society promotes the consumption of meat since it is conveniently inexpensive and satisfying for the price. Even organic foods can be expensive. no It's great that you chose to go vegan, but not everyone has that option to do so.

If we go into pollution of the environment utilizing mass farming and mass production of animals...there is so much interesting stuff there, but that's so off topic laugh

Last edited by BlueHaro at 8:44 am, Apr 10

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