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Please Defend This Torture Porn

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Post #663443
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Woodland Friendo
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4:32 am, Mar 23 2015
Posts: 98


Let's get one thing straight before I hear anyone else say something like:
Quote
People Say this sucks. They don't like stories like this...


I've read some dark + graphic stories before, so I don't have any issues with lotsa sex and gore presented in the story. My issues not the material presented itself, but how exactly the material's presented.

To get to the point, I have a lot of issues with this series, yet not a clear enough understanding of why people seem to love it so damn much despite its many flaws. At only eight chapters so far, I've noticed various plot holes, downright stupid/illogical actions and thoughts coming from main characters (especially the protagonist), and twists pulled right out of the author's ass. On one website, it seems like the very few people giving criticism have others telling them things like "GTFO," as the committed readers wish to live in an echo-chamber of nothing but positive comments.

So for anyone that's willing to defend this series, I'd like to know:
1. Do people like this series mainly because its "justifiable" torture porn, where the heroine can be as sadistic as she wants cause the "bad guys" deserve it?
2.
Spoiler (mouse over to view)
Is the protagonist really that stupid enough to ask another person in his class as for whether or not she's also participating in a competion to the death amongst all of its participants?

3.
Spoiler (mouse over to view)
Is the club president that stupid enough to think that her cameraman (the protagonist) wouldn't notice the different resolutions in her poorly edited photo?

4. How is Dead Tube being kept an underground secret, yet requires (presumably) as many random people to view the videos for helping decide winners and losers? How are they so sure that nobody will spread the word about this?

I have some other questions, but I'll end it here for now.

From the looks of it though, if you can create a torture porn story like this, it shouldn't be too hard to get tons of people throwing money at ya...

Post #663452
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9:26 am, Mar 23 2015
Posts: 920


You know those bad movies that are good because they are bad? This is basically it in a manga form, also wouldn't say this is torture porn, it isn't that gory. Also from what I see it has been mostly just been students from that school that know about it, coincidence? I think not. Protagonist has his own morals, he is helping a obviously stupid girl that does not know the implication of joining dead tube, also the club president had no respect for him in reality and never acknowledged his as a full fledged cameraman which is why she did not believe in that he would notice, also she was supposedly a shit director.

Post #663475 - Reply to (#663452) by Kaitentsuki
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Woodland Friendo
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10:14 pm, Mar 23 2015
Posts: 98


Writing the original post late last night, I feel like I jumped the gun without fully thinking it through as to label this manga as an overall torture porn, so I'll agree that it's not entirely torture porn with where it is right now. Still, I figure that given some time (hopefully though it dies off asap), it will be headed in that direction. After all, YAMAGUCHI Mikoto had most of the villains in Gun x Clover characterized simply as a bunch of twisted sadists that take the good guys hostage and fuck around with them, so there's definitely a chance that he'll bring that as a permanent trait to Dead Tube's main characters (like when they humiliated the director to remind us that she's disgusting and deserves to die!).
In order to have readers support the main characters, his genius writing style has him paint the villains as evil as possible so the main characters can be the ones who take them down through whatever means possible. It's not played out in a way where people selfishly kill each other mainly for the money or survival, but no, the characters present are killing other people coz it's alotta FUN!

Unfortunately, I have to disagree with you for some points you brought up. I do really wish that other people liked this because "it's so bad it's good" (if that's the case for u I think that's totally fine), but I'm not seeing that in a majority of their comments:
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waiting for next chapter,,and good bye to homeroom teacher.. I hope you give it a good resistance until you die XD
-Kudryavka San (2/15/15)
http://www.mangahere.co/manga/dead_tube/
There are tons more like that, and going back to criticism on the site, I've seen only 2 or 3 examples, but that's about it. Practically nobody else I've seen question its plot or laughs at its stupidity; they genuinely like this series for its over-the-top presentation of shocking gore, shocking statements, and once again, the shocking (yet incredibly convenient + stupid) twists.

The motives would've been totally believable had the director been their opponent in Dead Tube, having to follow the ideology of "kill or be killed," but of course not. The author reveals that Director and friends happened to be some demented, sex-addicted sadists, without any indication whatsoever about this being "their true personality they've been hiding all this time!"
He's done this kind of thing in Scumbag Loser, so I figure that he'll constantly want to make people shout, "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdhhQhqi_AE!"

To get back on track...
>The girl is stupid for not reading the rules fully, but the protagonist is still stupid as well. He had people he thought were his friends turn out to be some crazies that hated him all this time and tried to kill him. Now he's gonna talk to some girl that's his opponent?! Also, is the heroine able to teleport to the protagonist's side every time he's talking to another girl about something relating to Dead Tube...?!
>I was wrong to believe that people trying to kill each other in elaborate ways would actually try to plan things out as perfectly as possible. I think it would've made more sense had he seen a photo of her prior to being sent the fake one, but whatever, people in this story are stupid as Hell, so I won't question that part anymore.
>I highly doubt that High School students are orchestrating this competition. Them being the main competitors + viewers makes some sense, but once again, how do u manage to get people to participate without revealing this underground competition to the public? Like somebody a person know in High School goes missing one day, you notice a public video online with another person (not disguised at all) stabbing them to death on camera, and for some reason they decide to not call out for help? Like even if the police are being bribed to do jack shit, I don't see how word can be spread throughout the public + online about this shit taking place.

Last edited by Lost Rabbit at 10:19 pm, Mar 23

Post #663483
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First-Class Logic
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2:34 am, Mar 24 2015
Posts: 90


I haven't read it (for exactly the reasons you've named -- plotless gorn and sexual exploitation intended to titillate), but I can tell you why certain people like it:

1. It's exciting. Personally, I'm bored to tears by fiction lacking substance, especially if it's tagged as "fast-paced" (because that usually means it's underdeveloped and with lots of useless and insignificant things going on), but people with short attention spans and no inclination towards character or plot will flock to these types of stories. That's why Michael Bay movies gross so much in theaters. I guess this phenomenon can be summed up as "the easily amused are easily amused." wink

2. It's "edgy." The violence is so gratuitous, so over-the-top, that those who don't know any better mistake it for being avant-garde or boundary-pushing. Truth is, there are ways to incorporate extreme violence into a coherent and meaningful narrative -- it's just much, much harder to justify.

3. Sex appeal. I don't think it needs explaining, but especially in cases like this, where sexual violence is the predominant form of sexuality in a work, people are less likely to admit to reading it for the sex appeal alone, due to the social stigma of the subject matter. They don't realize that it's perfectly okay to have a fictionalized fetish or fantasy, so they try to justify themselves by making claims to the quality of the story (even when it is very low). It's kind of like those people who read Playboy "for the stories."

4. Guilty pleasure. Some people who read it know it's garbage but are unable to criticize anything that they find themselves engaging in (which is silly because criticizing the things we like doesn't mean we have to suddenly hate everything about them).

Referring to your topic title, as a free speech advocate, I defend this manga's right to exist. But as a reader and writer, I cringe at the fact that it does (don't manga magazines have quality control anymore?). laugh

(If it makes you feel any better, it seems like most of the reviewers on this site aren't too fond of it, either. bigrazz)

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Post #663485
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Forum Firestarter
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3:38 am, Mar 24 2015
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I don't where people are coming from... if you haven't read it then how do you know how the violence and sex is in it? I read through the current chapters and I can tell you that the violence is part of the plot. The plot is essentially a game... straightforward... to get as many views as you can. The loser gets all the punishment and fees, the winner gets a cash value multiplied by the number of views. The violent and depraved videos get the most views and so they are the ones that are at the center of the story.

From what I can so there is is very little sex shown at all, the last arc with the President being the most so far and only a few single panels depicting past events. Other than that there's nothing really there.

I like the story... I want to know what happens next. The crazy scenarios they get into and all the really crazy "girlfriend" main heroine. What will she do next? What will happen if they ever end up on the bottom? How will they keep themselves in the top? How will their relationship progress with all the craziness surrounding them?

These are some of the questions I read to answer.

I have certainly seen worse horror and more gratuitous violence in other manga's and there are definitely some stories that didn't need it but had it. This I can say is not one of them. The violence and "sex" is part of the story and graphic nature of them highlights the craziness of the situation.

What it really comes down to is simple. A story is made up by the author and brought to life by the artist. It's not up to the reader to dictate how the story NEEDS to go or how it SHOULD be told. It's not the readers story to tell. It's the authors. The readers only job is: Decide if the story is something they want to hear. That's all...

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Post #663491 - Reply to (#663475) by Lost Rabbit
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6:29 am, Mar 24 2015
Posts: 920


Never said that the high school students were involved with the competition, they are the players is how I interpreted it. A higher power or organization is obviously doing it, but I think it is limited to the school, maybe the school itself is organizing it or something, I do not know. As I said though, the protagonist is still naive and maybe the girl saw him walk with another girl so she got close to listen, she obviously has a thing for his skills as a cameraman. The director was obviously a nutjob thinking her as some godlike director and used her body as means to make her film as good as possible, which according to the guy with the cameraskills, she wasn't, so can't see her being a clever girl. Thing is though it is fun because it is over the top, despite the story not being so fantastic, the art is quite good which may be why it is fun to read.

Post #663530
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Woodland Friendo
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1:55 am, Mar 25 2015
Posts: 98


Oh awesome, good to see a few more responses! Before I go on to give individual replies, I got this post up and running mainly to get a discussion on the series going, as I've been curious about what people see in the series despite the flaws I've found. I think it's nice to help other people that might consider reading this series gain a better sense of whether or not it's worth trying out, as on the main page there's (so far) 4 negative reviews and only one 10/10 review without much reasoning for why it deserves said 10/10. I appreciate gaining new perspective through this and having questions answered, and in case I've been coming off as a stubborn asshole, I do apologize, as I have nothing against readers of the series that enjoy it. So, hopefully we can continue to be civil. biggrin

@crazyboutcute
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Referring to your topic title, as a free speech advocate, I defend this manga's right to exist. But as a reader and writer, I cringe at the fact that it does (don't manga magazines have quality control anymore?). laugh

Of course this has a right to exist. I think the concept would have worked had the author actually improved or thought-out his ideas a bit more, like to make the characters wear masks/disguises, explain better how the competition's kept an absolute secret from the public, make people's personality changes a lot more believable (this one's definitely arguable, so I'll get to that in one of the other replies), etc. The overall execution I question a lot, yet the premise I find reasonable.

With 2 "similar" series,
Darwin's Game I appreciate for how there's a variety of reasons for the competitors joining the game, and how their reasons are a large part of their personality.
Spoiler (mouse over to view)
The botanist (forgot his nickname...) is doing this to help keep his daughter alive in the hospital with the money from the game; the Heroine's overpowered and thus has fun with it; the villain is a psychopath that enjoys being on top of the competition with his insanely strong powers; and the protagonist joins the game without knowing better, yet he's determined to absolutely improve his chances of somehow making it out of the game.

Underdog I really wish had more chapters out for me to discuss (hasn't been updated in years...), but I'll work with what there is so far. Just like Dead Tube and D-Game, it's got an underground competition that nobody else can know about. Winner collects a shit ton of money, the losers of course die. I think it's somewhat more "disturbing" than Dead Tube, where you have to find a way to kill off your opponent without directly killing them, so there's obviously a lot more thinking that needs to go into surviving + dealing with your opponent (and their psychological attacks upon your lifestyle). I don't see it as a perfect series at all for other murderous survival games to take reference to, but I'll give it a lot of credit for explaining as fully as possible the rules (http://kissmanga.com/Manga/Underdog/003?id=90989#5), as well as examples of how they ensure that the competition doesn't spread word (CAMERAS EVERYWHERE!!!).

@firestalker
I already know the rules presented, but I still don't understand how they work exactly.
Like how people pop up dead in the news/someone may have known them personally, and when you see a video of said person being killed by someone else that wasn't the culprit, nobody's gonna put two and two together and start spreading the news like wildfire?
Also...
"My daughter just got murdered, and now I suddenly have to pay a shit ton of money for some unknown reason they won't tell me?!" Are all the high schoolers' parents away on business trips and never shown at all? Do parents even exist?

I don't have a problem with "sex" shown in a series. I do wonder though what you mean by the series not having much sex when you responded to crazyboutcute. Actual sexual intercourse hasn't been shown that much (aside from the actress girl in the nerd orgy + the President & friends being a bunch of sex addicts), yet when it comes to sexual themes, well, the artist has made quite a decent number of Hentais. That being said:
1. We get to see an entire day's worth of footage of the Heroine teasing the protagonist as much as possible in a "lewd" manner. 2. The heroine kills a jackass while totally naked. 3. "I don't want to be a part of this competition!" "Oh yes you do! After all, it sure does turn ya on, hmmmm~?" [Flashback to protagonist having a boner while filming her kill someone] 4. The heroine tells our protagonist that she's a virgin and is "totally into him!" 5. Now let's record the Director with as much nudity/naughtiness we can possibly come up with! 6.. The heroine's framed for taking the film club's members hostage, involving ONLY the girl member being sexually assaulted/"tortured." 7. Protagonist is approached by the stupid girl that realized she'll probably die, and says that she'll screw the protagonist if he helps her out. Good thing she wasn't a guy, cause I guess he wouldn't have anything else to offer as payment (unless, perhaps, the protagonist swings that way...) .______.

She's definitely not his girlfriend with their current relationship dynamic, and I don't really see how the main characters are gonna "develop it." There's plenty of times for the two of them to be intimate or come to a mutual understanding about their true feelings, but that doesn't happen. The heroine will continue to sexually tease the guy cause that seems to be her enjoyment in life, right next to killing people coz it's FUN! As for what she'll do next, obviously she'll keep on killing more people (coz ya know, it's FUN!) I have yet to see a "crazy scenario" they get into. So far they killed some nameless jackass, and as for when they killed the protagonist's friends who were evil all along, I'd call it a very "unbelievable" scenario rather than simply "crazy" (I'll go further with this in Kaitentsuki's response like I said for crazyboutcute).

Quote
I have certainly seen worse horror and more gratuitous violence in other manga's and there are definitely some stories that didn't need it but had it. This I can say is not one of them. The violence and "sex" is part of the story and graphic nature of them highlights the craziness of the situation.

I never said anything about horror at all, and I in no way see this as horror. Once again, I don't have an issue with sex and gore presented in a story; my issue's not the material presented itself, but how exactly the material's presented. I love Murcielago and Dorohedoro for both their bold, over-the-top gore and "detailed" sexual content attached to some of the main characters (Kuroko sure does love all the ladies...). They work (for me) because they both tend to not take themselves serious at all, be it fighting off obstacles or killing extraneous bad guys in a comedic fashion (an enemy gets turned into a giant meat pie and is consumed by one of the main characters without them totally realizing it), and along with that, they take place in realms totally detached from our reality. Dead Tube though can't properly establish itself, as it tries to explain how it's meant to work, but still ends up having gaping holes that seem kinda important and shouldn't be ignored...

I never said it SHOULD or NEEDS to do/be something. I'm giving possible suggestions for how something I'd question could make a lot more sense. Also, readers giving back constructive criticism aint a bad thing. I'm sure the author won't be reading what I say, but regardless, I can question whatever a story presents if I choose to, and even as it won't change the series in any way, I'd still at least like to get some answers from other readers... [shrug]

@Kaitentsuki
>I just find it odd that someone can be so naive like our protagonist. Like I said, after being betrayed by someone you thought you had known all this time, you'd probably have to be careful in terms of who you approach when it comes to this "deadly game." If people can really be that naive when it comes to living in a "life-or-death lifestyle," I'll have to lower my expectations quite a lot. It really does come off for me as hard to believe, but if that's really the case, then I guess I can come to accept it. :/
>The issue I have with the Director and friends' personality changes is for how out-of-place it felt. Like it was only meant to be a big twist for shock value, nothing more. We've seen her and another girl talk to the protagonist like normal, concerned human-beings would do, but then all of a sudden, at the drop of a hat, they later reveal that they've always been these evil nut jobs all this time, with once again, no indication/clues whatsoever. It just felt like the author threw it in there and decided to run with it, and this is pretty much the reason why I ask these kind of questions to you guys; I want to be proven wrong as it was probably something I overlooked.
>I know that the heroine walks over to the protagonist to interrupt him talking to another girl, but twice this happens like it's totally a coincidence. I find it silly, but definitely not as a reason for disliking the series.
>Check out the two series I mentioned before (Murcielago and Dorohedoro). If you don't like any of them I'd understand why, but I think that they'd fit the bill for over-the-top action/gore + good art. Dorohedoro's is tough to get used to for a lot of people when they first see it, but I think it fits the series perfectly.

Post #663542
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First-Class Logic
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6:59 am, Mar 25 2015
Posts: 90


Oh, feel free to enjoy whatever you like -- I don't judge since I shamelessly read and enjoy quite a bit of garbage myself. And if you are genuinely interested in the story and think it's good, by all means, please do assert that! I'm not claiming my opinion is right, and you're certainly free to challenge it! wink

Quote
What it really comes down to is simple. A story is made up by the author and brought to life by the artist. It's not up to the reader to dictate how the story NEEDS to go or how it SHOULD be told. It's not the readers story to tell. It's the authors. The readers only job is: Decide if the story is something they want to hear. That's all...


As for this, however -- this is just plain silly. Critiquing and criticizing a work is not the same as dictating how it should go. As readers, I assert that it is not our right but rather our responsibility to voice our opinions -- be they positive or negative. After all, where else is an author supposed to get her feedback? How will she know what she needs to improve on or what she's doing well? I have a degree in creative writing, and believe me, I understand how painful it can be to listen to criticism directed at my work. But that's also why I understand just how valuable it is. I shudder when I think back on some of the things I've written in the past that I'd parade around like a self-satisfied hack because nobody ever told me what was wrong with them. Feedback is to writing what bread is to living, after all, and to propose that readers should just sit passively and accept what's spoon-fed to them is a very childish way of engaging with literature. Like I said in my other post, it's perfectly acceptable to criticize things that we like while still liking them -- I do it with pretty much everything.

(And as far as the actual content of this particular manga is concerned, I'm just going by the consistency I've found in reviews and comments on it and basing my assessment on that. I don't have the time or the patience to read something I already know I won't enjoy.)

@Lost Rabbit, I merely said what I did because I wasn't sure exactly how you meant your topic title, and since it reminded me of a Neil Gaiman post about defending things you don't like in the name of free speech, I just threw in my two cents about that particular issue. Apologies if it wasn't particularly relevant to what you were actually asserting. laugh

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Post #683083
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5:48 am, Aug 16 2016
Posts: 501


Dear idiot,

It's not real. Please learn the difference between reality and fiction. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean everyone will think the same as you. They don't have to defend anything from the likes of you because you are not special. You are just another random nobody on the internet. Don't like it, don't read it.



Post #683311 - Reply to (#683083) by SangMo
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Woodland Friendo
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11:04 pm, Aug 23 2016
Posts: 98


Dear SangMo,

I know it's not real, and I don't expect everyone to think like I do. I saw plenty of positive reviews for it, wanted to understand further why exactly people liked it, and that's really it. I never said people who like this are degenerate trash or idiots; I just wasn't sure what the appeal was, despite there being overly glaring issues with the entire set up of the story itself. I merely invited for there to be further discussion about it with those who liked the series, and at the very least I was able to carry out some decent (if not pleasant) conversations. I never said I'm special, I'm fine being a nobody on the internet, and don't worry, I have in fact stopped reading it. bigrazz

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