Quote from Blique

I've noticed that the minimum "requirements" for a BL manga to be labelled yaoi is at least one explicit sex scene, or it's suggested that the couple is in a sexual relationship.

In general, I'd say that a typical yaoi has a sex scene, or at least a sexy scene (like masturbation or even just heavy french kissing) in each chapter. However, I have seen multiple yaoi that last several chapters or more, and only the last chapter contains sexual content.

My main experience with porn is hentai, and compared to that, yaoi is many levels milder. I'd say an average hentai has 4/5 pages of sexual content, while an average yaoi has 1/5. The main focus of hentai is sex, while the main focus of yaoi is romance. If you don't want to confirm the content yourself, just take a look at the covers. Hentai = erotic depiction of one or more girls. Yaoi = two close males.. Yaoi covers can get more intimate, but they rarely show anything explicit.

Yaoi is far closer to "mature romance" than "porn".

YES! Indeed. Yes, there are some BL that is "pornographic" but many aren't as well. You understand!

[quote= NightSwan] If Shungiku Nakamura's Junjou Romantica is really porn, then I suppose Barnes & Noble Wouldn't carry it, which it does, on regular bookshelves, and you don't need an I.D. saying you are legally 18 to buy the volumes, but ever since I started working for Libre (not totally pro yet) in Japan, its different. All books are shrinkwrapped here. 😃

“𝒯𝒽𝑒 𝓇𝑜𝓈𝑒'𝓈 𝓇𝒶𝓇𝑒𝓈𝓉 𝑒𝓈𝓈𝑒𝓃𝒸𝑒 𝓁𝒾𝓋𝑒𝓈 𝒾𝓃 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝓉𝒽𝑜𝓇𝓃𝓈.” ― 𝑀𝒶𝓌𝓁𝒶𝓃𝒶 𝒥𝒶𝓁𝒶𝓁-𝒶𝓁-𝒟𝒾𝓃 𝑅𝓊𝓂𝒾.
あたしは腐女子です。少女漫画、たくさん読んでください。

Porn, porn, porn.

Romance so mature that it has about 5% of realism
and underaged girls like reading it, yup.

1. Unrealistic portrayal of the opposite sex
2. Explicit sex scenes
3. Sex scenes are the culmination of the plot

Am I talking about yaoi or hentai...oh wait, it applies to both equally well.

"It is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science."

Methinks there's a stereotype going around...

Mature =/= realistic.

Unrealistic portrayals of most things in general is rather common in any genre. I won't even bother citing examples (glances at One Piece) since they're everywhere. It still puzzles me as to why people insist manga can't be unrealistic. It would be dreadfully boring.

The problem I find with this matter is the very general "requirements" for a manga to be considered yaoi. For example, there can be a tragic, psychological depiction of domestic rape between a man and his stepson (A Cruel God Reigns) , and it could be considered yaoi because it contains sex between two males. Yet if it's the same situation but with a man and his stepdaughter (Bitter Virgin), anyone could tell you it's nothing close to porn.

Generalizing and saying yaoi is full of beautiful guys who act overly emotional and have explicit sex all the time is completely ignoring the possibilities within the incredibly broad genre of "two males in a sexual relationship".

And thank you, Bunny. ^^

Quote from Blique

Methinks there's a stereotype going around...

Mature =/= realistic.

Unrealistic portrayals of most things in general is rather common in any genre. I won't even bother citing examples (glances at One Piece) since they're everywhere. It still puzzles me as to why people insist manga can't be unrealistic. It would be dreadfully boring.

The problem I find with this matter is the very general "requirements" for a manga to be considered yaoi. For example, there can be a tragic, psychological depiction of domestic rape between a man and his stepson (A Cruel God Reigns) , and it could be considered yaoi because it contains sex between two males. Yet if it's the same situation but with a man and his stepdaughter (Bitter Virgin), anyone could tell you it's nothing close to porn.

Generalizing and saying yaoi is full of beautiful guys who act overly emotional and have explicit sex all the time is completely ignoring the possibilities within the incredibly broad genre of "two males in a sexual relationship".

And thank you, Bunny. ^^

If there is an explicitly depicted rape scene, then it would technically be pornography as per the dictionary definition of the word. If it is a work which does not contain that, it is not. The storytelling content is ultimately irrelevant.

That said, I do want to point out that despite not being serialized in 18+ magazines (though, to that end there's plenty of porn in normal Japanese newspapers...) the majority of these titles do contain, well, sex. Just stop and think about that for a moment- it would, and is, very easy to tell a romance story without actually having sex scenes. There are few occasions where the symbolism is necessary unless it's actually a story about sex. I'm sure there are some BL titles that are essentially grossly unrealistic portrayals of homosexual romances, but contain nothing explicit, but the reason this thread exists is that an uncanny number have sexually explicit content, arguably far more than need to.

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Reviews of my Work:
You are kind of boring - Blackorion
Congratulations! Ur an asshole! - tokyo_homi
**Your awesome!!! **- Cherelle_Ashley
NightSwan also said that she wanted to peg me, once, but I'm not sure whether to take that as a compliment or a threat...

Quote from Blique

Methinks there's a stereotype going around...

Mature =/= realistic.

Unrealistic portrayals of most things in general is rather common in any genre. I won't even bother citing examples (glances at One Piece) since they're everywhere. It still puzzles me as to why people insist manga can't be unrealistic. It would be dreadfully boring.

The problem I find with this matter is the very general "requirements" for a manga to be considered yaoi. For example, there can be a tragic, psychological depiction of domestic rape between a man and his stepson (A Cruel God Reigns) , and it could be considered yaoi because it contains sex between two males. Yet if it's the same situation but with a man and his stepdaughter (Bitter Virgin), anyone could tell you it's nothing close to porn.

Generalizing and saying yaoi is full of beautiful guys who act overly emotional and have explicit sex all the time is completely ignoring the possibilities within the incredibly broad genre of "two males in a sexual relationship".

And thank you, Bunny. ^^

Oh! One of Moto Hagio's masterpieces! A Cruel God Rains is an excellent manga with BL content, and its VERY good! Yes.

Honestly, there is more BL that can be considered great "literature", and not much (or really any) eromanga that can be called fine literature, no matter how great the art is, and if eromanga has a plot, well, its generally based around sex.

Now, there are BL that is porn and just that, and is absolutely ridiculous, like Mitsuba Kurenai's awful Level C, is porn, in may not show genitals, but is sex, and more sex, excuses for sex, rape, sex etc. And many works by IKE Reibun, MINAMI Haruka and OOTSUKI Miu can more than likely be called "porn" as well.

People like Mamsmilk maybe have never read anything by TAKEMIYA Keiko, YOSHINAGA Fumi, MIYAMOTO Kano or TAKANAGA Hinako

“𝒯𝒽𝑒 𝓇𝑜𝓈𝑒'𝓈 𝓇𝒶𝓇𝑒𝓈𝓉 𝑒𝓈𝓈𝑒𝓃𝒸𝑒 𝓁𝒾𝓋𝑒𝓈 𝒾𝓃 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝓉𝒽𝑜𝓇𝓃𝓈.” ― 𝑀𝒶𝓌𝓁𝒶𝓃𝒶 𝒥𝒶𝓁𝒶𝓁-𝒶𝓁-𝒟𝒾𝓃 𝑅𝓊𝓂𝒾.
あたしは腐女子です。少女漫画、たくさん読んでください。

The poll speaks for itself.

Most childporn doesn't have any kind of an intercourse
and some of its fans could call it appreciating the beauty of the youth
or something along the lines, but you would still call it porn, nevertheless.
Same goes for horseporn. It's technically very difficult to have any intercourse
in it. Porn anyway.
Before you start to say anything about yaoi and porn, you should
figure out what exactly does porn mean.

Quote from Mamsmilk

The poll speaks for itself.

Most childporn doesn't have any kind of an intercourse
and some of its fans could call it appreciating the beauty of the youth
or something along the lines, but you would still call it porn, nevertheless.
Same goes for horseporn. It's technically very difficult to have any intercourse
in it. Porn anyway.
Before you start to say anything about yaoi and porn, you should
figure out what exactly does porn mean.

You like child-porn? (JK)

And you probably haven't read any YOSHINAGA Fumi, or TAKEMIYA Keiko. If anyone is to blame for BL and yaoi existing, it you should blame the shojo revolutionaries... including TAKEMIYA Keiko...

BTW, porn needs an I.D. certifying you are of adult age, many BL (Junjou Romantica etc.) are in bookstores. I have never seen any eromanga (hentai) in bookstores [out in the open on the bookshelves] in the USA, but you can get them in Japan's bookstores... with an I.D.

BTW, I have also never seen BL with tentacle monsters (okay, well, there is the one by SAKURAGAWA Sonoko...)

And a poll doesn't mean much... its the internet. Yes there is pornographic BL, but there also isn't.

Read some TAKANAGA Hinako?

My definition of porn: offensive, sex-driven material that has no meaning other than to turn someone on and has little, or no artistic merit

“𝒯𝒽𝑒 𝓇𝑜𝓈𝑒'𝓈 𝓇𝒶𝓇𝑒𝓈𝓉 𝑒𝓈𝓈𝑒𝓃𝒸𝑒 𝓁𝒾𝓋𝑒𝓈 𝒾𝓃 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝓉𝒽𝑜𝓇𝓃𝓈.” ― 𝑀𝒶𝓌𝓁𝒶𝓃𝒶 𝒥𝒶𝓁𝒶𝓁-𝒶𝓁-𝒟𝒾𝓃 𝑅𝓊𝓂𝒾.
あたしは腐女子です。少女漫画、たくさん読んでください。

9 times out of 10, yeah. Most of it is, plotless, pointless, genitalia flying everywhere porn.

But seriously, I'm not going to lie, all the labels confuse me. I'm American, my brain follows the mpaa way of rating, not the black and white "this all has sex, so it is porn." It depends on how graphic it is. I've read plenty BL with less explicit sex than what a film with an R rating has here, so I don't know. I guess for some it is easier to just use blanket terms.

[img]http://s4.tinypic.com/23jr85h.jpg[/img]

Quote from shaggievara

9 times out of 10, yeah. Most of it is, plotless, pointless, genitalia flying everywhere porn.

But seriously, I'm not going to lie, all the labels confuse me. I'm American, my brain follows the mpaa way of rating, not the black and white "this all has sex, so it is porn." It depends on how graphic it is. I've read plenty BL with less explicit sex than what a film with an R rating has here, so I don't know. I guess for some it is easier to just use blanket terms.

... not all of it is genitalia flying everywhere, it depends on the artist, I'd say more 5-6/10?

Just the way people have been wording things here is making it sound less romantic than it is intended to be...

“𝒯𝒽𝑒 𝓇𝑜𝓈𝑒'𝓈 𝓇𝒶𝓇𝑒𝓈𝓉 𝑒𝓈𝓈𝑒𝓃𝒸𝑒 𝓁𝒾𝓋𝑒𝓈 𝒾𝓃 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝓉𝒽𝑜𝓇𝓃𝓈.” ― 𝑀𝒶𝓌𝓁𝒶𝓃𝒶 𝒥𝒶𝓁𝒶𝓁-𝒶𝓁-𝒟𝒾𝓃 𝑅𝓊𝓂𝒾.
あたしは腐女子です。少女漫画、たくさん読んでください。

Quote from Bunny-chan

Quote from shaggievara

9 times out of 10, yeah. Most of it is, plotless, pointless, genitalia flying everywhere porn.

But seriously, I'm not going to lie, all the labels confuse me. I'm American, my brain follows the mpaa way of rating, not the black and white "this all has sex, so it is porn." It depends on how graphic it is. I've read plenty BL with less explicit sex than what a film with an R rating has here, so I don't know. I guess for some it is easier to just use blanket terms.

... not all of it is genitalia flying everywhere, it depends on the artist, I'd say more 5-6/10?

Just the way people have been wording things here is making it sound less romantic than it is intended to be...

Or 9.9/10.

Quote from Mamsmilk

Quote from Bunny-chan

Quote from shaggievara

9 times out of 10, yeah. Most of it is, plotless, pointless, genitalia flying everywhere porn.

But seriously, I'm not going to lie, all the labels confuse me. I'm American, my brain follows the mpaa way of rating, not the black and white "this all has sex, so it is porn." It depends on how graphic it is. I've read plenty BL with less explicit sex than what a film with an R rating has here, so I don't know. I guess for some it is easier to just use blanket terms.

... not all of it is genitalia flying everywhere, it depends on the artist, I'd say more 5-6/10?

Just the way people have been wording things here is making it sound less romantic than it is intended to be...

Or 9.9/10.

How much BL manga have you read? And give me titles and authors?

Because I think you should read more of the BL I suggested above. And there is always the actual gay manga, by gay men, called gei-comi (TAGAME Gengoroh, FUJIMOTO Goh,Mentaiko, HIROSEGAWA Susumu)....

I believe my mind was somewhere else again so I just sort of typed what my soul said at the time. LOL

“𝒯𝒽𝑒 𝓇𝑜𝓈𝑒'𝓈 𝓇𝒶𝓇𝑒𝓈𝓉 𝑒𝓈𝓈𝑒𝓃𝒸𝑒 𝓁𝒾𝓋𝑒𝓈 𝒾𝓃 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝓉𝒽𝑜𝓇𝓃𝓈.” ― 𝑀𝒶𝓌𝓁𝒶𝓃𝒶 𝒥𝒶𝓁𝒶𝓁-𝒶𝓁-𝒟𝒾𝓃 𝑅𝓊𝓂𝒾.
あたしは腐女子です。少女漫画、たくさん読んでください。

Quote from Bunny-chan

Quote from shaggievara

9 times out of 10, yeah. Most of it is, plotless, pointless, genitalia flying everywhere porn.

But seriously, I'm not going to lie, all the labels confuse me. I'm American, my brain follows the mpaa way of rating, not the black and white "this all has sex, so it is porn." It depends on how graphic it is. I've read plenty BL with less explicit sex than what a film with an R rating has here, so I don't know. I guess for some it is easier to just use blanket terms.

... not all of it is genitalia flying everywhere, it depends on the artist, I'd say more 5-6/10?

Just the way people have been wording things here is making it sound less romantic than it is intended to be...

Why would intention matter? It is what it is.

And 5-6/10 would constitute a majority, which would really be enough to justify the stance.

[img]http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt122/Wthuh/CrenshiSig.jpg[/img]
Reviews of my Work:
You are kind of boring - Blackorion
Congratulations! Ur an asshole! - tokyo_homi
**Your awesome!!! **- Cherelle_Ashley
NightSwan also said that she wanted to peg me, once, but I'm not sure whether to take that as a compliment or a threat...

Quote from Crenshinibon

Quote from Bunny-chan

Quote from shaggievara

9 times out of 10, yeah. Most of it is, plotless, pointless, genitalia flying everywhere porn.

But seriously, I'm not going to lie, all the labels confuse me. I'm American, my brain follows the mpaa way of rating, not the black and white "this all has sex, so it is porn." It depends on how graphic it is. I've read plenty BL with less explicit sex than what a film with an R rating has here, so I don't know. I guess for some it is easier to just use blanket terms.

... not all of it is genitalia flying everywhere, it depends on the artist, I'd say more 5-6/10?

Just the way people have been wording things here is making it sound less romantic than it is intended to be...

Why would intention matter? It is what it is.

And 5-6/10 would constitute a majority, which would really be enough to justify the stance.

Well, it depends, BL manga goes through fads, just like mainstream types of josei and shojo manga do.

And intention does indeed matter, pornography is INTENDED to be used for sexual arousal, and just that and has no other purpose, while a lot of BL is like a regular romance novel... it generates emotion and love. <3

“𝒯𝒽𝑒 𝓇𝑜𝓈𝑒'𝓈 𝓇𝒶𝓇𝑒𝓈𝓉 𝑒𝓈𝓈𝑒𝓃𝒸𝑒 𝓁𝒾𝓋𝑒𝓈 𝒾𝓃 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝓉𝒽𝑜𝓇𝓃𝓈.” ― 𝑀𝒶𝓌𝓁𝒶𝓃𝒶 𝒥𝒶𝓁𝒶𝓁-𝒶𝓁-𝒟𝒾𝓃 𝑅𝓊𝓂𝒾.
あたしは腐女子です。少女漫画、たくさん読んでください。

Quote from Bunny-chan

Well, it depends, BL manga goes through fads, just like mainstream types of josei and shojo manga do.

And intention does indeed matter, pornography is INTENDED to be used for sexual arousal, and just that and has no other purpose, while a lot of BL is like a regular romance novel... it generates emotion and love. <3

Actually, not by definition consensus. I went over this earlier in the thread- it's just the explicit content that matters unless you're exclusively using a secondary definition that only appears in particular dictioaries.

Besides, if you were a government agency deciding what should be sold with an age limiter (btw, Bunny, the day you actually need an ID to buy anything in Japan is the day the sun explodes... anyone who has spent any time there at all would know that) you wouldn't base your decision on the author's intention. You would base it on the content. BL titles sold without the limiter in Japan have historically been black-shrinkwrapped in the states, I remember a few years back when a friend was up in arms about that. Just because Japan has more lenient regulations with regard to what they consider pornography doesn't make it not that.

And, as far as "generating emotion and love," that's a steaming pile of bullshit. If that were the only thing that mattered you wouldn't have inclusions of sex in the majority of the pieces. Unless in your mind "emotion and love" is something that can only be found in sex :/.

[img]http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt122/Wthuh/CrenshiSig.jpg[/img]
Reviews of my Work:
You are kind of boring - Blackorion
Congratulations! Ur an asshole! - tokyo_homi
**Your awesome!!! **- Cherelle_Ashley
NightSwan also said that she wanted to peg me, once, but I'm not sure whether to take that as a compliment or a threat...