i dont mind but if it takes over the whole manga then i get annoyed

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Generally, my answer would be a nay, my explanation being the expected "Because I'm a girl". In most cases ecchi to me is just wasted page space or air time... To a straight girl, there really isn't much of a point to it...

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Generally, my answer would be a nay, my explanation being the expected "Because I'm a girl". In most cases ecchi to me is just wasted page space or air time... To a straight girl, there really isn't much of a point to it...

See I think ecchi is to broad than what your giving it. The mainstream manga uses ecchi for panty shots, and the like. That's not always the case, there are moment somewhere you can get quite tasteful stuff. Now it is directed at girls, but then again if you go much farther your ratings get bumped up.

How about guys being groped by women? I've see that in a shotacon manga where there are no panty shots and the main guy (14 yo) is the one being groped and seduced by a woman with dog ears and tail. We need more of that kind of refreshing ecchi, with older guys of course! I think most guys would think it's hot too?

nay
it just feels so degrading to me as the reader, as if the writer is saying "i know you aren't smart enough to apreciate a good story, so here is some softporn images instead!"

Quote from coffee_11

I don't get why ecchi fans are turned on by degrading women like that. Are they misogynists deep down? It must have something to do with the sexism in Japanese culture and that's really sad.

I have to say that this a far too generalized statement. I love ecchi. It's pretty much in everything I read (with a few notable exceptions). But I don't get turned on by seeing women degraded. On the contrary, I love seeing women being strong as well as sexy. That's what makes ecchi titles like Kurohime, Freezing and Shina Dark so appealing to me.

Quote from coffee_11

Why don't they find it hotter to see proper consensual sex scenes (i.e. smut but smut hardly exists in shonen and seinen manga. That's really weird.)? Why don't they replace the panty shots with pictures of women in elegant lingerie or swimsuits?

Smut can't exist in seinen manga. If there's sex it's going to be full out hentai. Anything short and sensual would be labeled pointless by most of the seinen audience. Hentai really is a sub-genre of seinen that guys read when they want to see actual sexual content; in hentai manga you can find lots of consensual sex and lingerie if you look at the right series. Oh and I'm pretty sure there are swimsuits in most ecchi series. It seems mandatory these days to have a beach chapter or episode at least once.

Quote from coffee_11

I feel uncomfortable about it therefore I refuse to read ecchi and will be hesitant to socialize with someone who likes ecchi because our believes and values are so different.

I think you're generalizing far too much. Not all ecchi is harem crap and tedious romantic comedies. I steer fully clear of all that and still label myself an ecchi fan. So just singling out the genre and its fans in such a fashion just seems wrong to me.

Quote from coffee_11

How about guys being groped by women? I've see that in a shotacon manga where there are no panty shots and the main guy (14 yo) is the one being groped and seduced by a woman with dog ears and tail. We need more of that kind of refreshing ecchi, with older guys of course! I think most guys would think it's hot too?

I for one don't want to see guys getting groped by girls so much. I find it more appealing if the ecchi content doesn't involve a guy at all. Just images of a girl in sexy, revealing clothing is enough for me. I don't want to see her grope or be groped by anyone really; unless, of course, it's another girl; thats the kind of ecchi we really need more of.

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I understand where you are coming from, Walrothetacoking. In my last post, I was talking about the mainstream shonen/seinen manga that people of different sexes would read, not ecchi manga for ecchi's sake (such as the shotacon one I mentioned. The title is Dog Style if you are interested. And I do know that ecchi is broad.) and hentai. I find the panty shots and pervert old men as fan service sick and a turn off to a female reader like me.

You can find girl groping girl in yuri manga. But I definitely don't want that as fan service in the usual shonen/seinen manga since they target a broad audience, not yuri fans. I just find it annoying in those manga girls are always groped unwillingly by old pervert men. Why don't they change it into guys being groped once in a while by the girls they like? Don't guys find it hot to be desired by the girls they like (and the readers can identify with the guys. Also you can read it as a symbol of girls being strong, liberated and assertive.)? But sexuality is complex. So I see the being desired thing may not be of your taste. However, I would think any guy who respects women would be more willing to see that instead of girls being harassed by dirty old guys or any loser perverts.

The ideas I get from most mainstream male oriented manga are: dirty old men are glorifed; it's NORMAL to be either an awkward loser (i.e. the nosebleed guy) or a completely coldhearted jerk (such as the guys in seinen manga who are rich and powerful and something and usually force women into prostitution); women are not supposed to be liberated and guys are not supposed to be objectified. Therefore I guess those are the mainstream ideas in Japanese culture? What I don't like are people who think like that.

Quote from coffee_11

I understand where you are coming from, Walrothetacoking. In my last post, I was talking about the mainstream shonen/seinen manga that people of different sexes would read, not ecchi manga for ecchi's sake (such as the shotacon one I mentioned. The title is Dog Style if you are interested. And I do know that ecchi is broad.) and hentai. I find the panty shots and pervert old men as fan service sick and a turn off to a female reader like me.

You can find girl groping girl in yuri manga. But I definitely don't want that as fan service in the usual shonen/seinen manga since they target a broad audience, not yuri fans. I just find it annoying in those manga girls are always groped unwillingly by old pervert men. Why don't they change it into guys being groped once in a while by the girls they like? Don't guys find it hot to be desired by the girls they like (and the readers can identify with the guys. Also you can read it as a symbol of girls being strong, liberated and assertive.)? But sexuality is complex. So I see the being desired thing may not be of your taste. However, I would think any guy who respects women would be more willing to see that instead of girls being harassed by dirty old guys or any loser perverts.

Well, I'll maintain that I'd like to see more seinen that incorporates yuri themed ecchi. Shounen/seinen are by definition supposed to be aimed at a male audience before a general one anyway. The fanservice in a manga published in a dedicated seinen magazine should be aimed more at men. I for one find too much female aimed fanservice in a manga or anime extremely off putting (especially if there isn't enough male-aimed fanservice to counter it).

I suppose I can see your point on the whole groping thing. Personally though, I find it more attractive when the sexy girl doesn't throw herself all over some guy and rather just remains independent. it's not like there has to be any romance in a manga at all. I suppose it rests in the fact that I don't identify with the male characters in manga; they're almost never similar to me. The male leads in seinen and shounen are typically lame characters that honestly I don't believe deserve the girls they get. Given the choice between girls aggressively seducing guys and guys near-molesting girls I would most definitely prefer the former though.

Quote from coffee_11

The ideas I get from most mainstream male oriented manga are: dirty old men are glorifed; it's NORMAL to be either an awkward loser (i.e. the nosebleed guy) or a completely coldhearted jerk (such as the guys in seinen manga who are rich and powerful and something and usually force women into prostitution); women are not supposed to be liberated and guys are not supposed to be objectified. Therefore I guess that's those are the mainstream ideas in Japanese culture?

Most of the guys reading manga in Japan are the awkward loser type unfortunately; I really detest that sort of character as well. Old guys the world over are perverted (not all, but a good number). I don't think they're trying to glorify the old perverts, just it's an easy way to characterize an older character (it's really become a cliche by this point though). And, I'll say there are lots of male aimed manga out there that have very strong, liberated women in them (i.e. Claymore, my favorite series and a "mainstream" title).

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I think there is already enough yuri in male-oriented manga, such as Blue Drop and the like. As a female, I don't want ALL usual shojo and josei manga full of yaoi (unless it's a BL romance of course) because it would be pointless and make the plot more senseless. By yaoi and yuri I don't mean just close friendships but the actual groping and the like. Thank goodness most of the shojo/josei titles that have plots I like are not like that. The same goes to shonen/seinen manga, yuri can be pointless and not every male reader's cup of tea (they can always read yuri manga if they are into it). Also I am sure there are more female readers who read shonen and seinen than male readers who read shojo and josei (I think this is probably the case in Japan and generally Asia. I grew up in an East Asian country and there were almost no guys who read shojo around me then.). It's not that they need to have fan service targeting females in shonen/seinen manga. It's that something as aggressive as yuri is just too much for manga which they know females would read. I guess that's the reason most shonen/seinen manga don't have it.

I'm torn between the two.

For the yay, it's because pre-teen and teen boys can't buy porn, so they try to sell sex to them in that form. Sex sells after all, and it seems that the female form sells more than the male form, so there are more ecchi stories with women in provocative positions.

For the nay, it's because there's porn and hentai EVERYWHERE, so why would anyone that's 18+, or anyone with a computer read a story for the ecchi? There's even softcore versions that are more daring for people that don't like the hardcore stuff.

But personally, I think that ecchi is nothing more than a stepping stone for future hentai lovers lol

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Quote from coffee_11

I think there is already enough yuri in male-oriented manga, such as Blue Drop and the like. As a female, I don't want ALL usual shojo and josei manga full of yaoi (unless it's a BL romance of course) because it would be pointless and make the plot more senseless. By yaoi and yuri I don't mean just close friendships but the actual groping and the like. Thank goodness most of the shojo/josei titles that have plots I like are not like that. The same goes to shonen/seinen manga, yuri can be pointless and not every male reader's cup of tea (they can always read yuri manga if they are into it). Also I am sure there are more female readers who read shonen and seinen than male readers who read shojo and josei (I think this is probably the case in Japan and generally Asia. I grew up in an East Asian country and there were almost no guys who read shojo around me then.). It's not that they need to have fan service targeting females in shonen/seinen manga. It's that something as aggressive as yuri is just too much for manga which they know females would read. I guess that's the reason most shonen/seinen manga don't have it.

Yeah I see what your saying, but I disagree about there already being enough male-oriented yuri manga out there. Most yuri seems to be aimed at females actually. There certainly is some male targeted stuff (like Blue Drop), but far from enough. A good number of the ones I've seen are cute but pointless fluff series like the stuff published in Comic Yuri Hime S. Very few times do I see what I want to see: a real, serious seinen manga with a plot that just happens to have yuri themes incorporated into it (something like Hakodate Youjin Buraichou Himegami). I know some guys won't read yuri, and it throws off most potential female readers but if it's published in a magazine with a good number of other series and a almost completely male base (as most magazines dedicated to ecchi manga do) it could still be successful.

And yeah, there definitely are more girls reading shounen then there are guys reading shoujo. I don't think that means the shounen/seinen authors should hold anything back on account for an audience outside their targeted one though. Not every shounen/seinen manga has to be to everyones tastes.

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I think most manga creators assume the male readers who like yuri are into the yuri in hentai or the "moe" ones in Yuri Hime S (that's probably true for otaku in Japan who read yuri). I meant there was a lot of that type around.

I do enjoy some josei yuri titles (they are more realistic to me since I am female and tend to relate myself to the situations) but I definitely don't want yuri as ecchi fan service in the shonen/seinen manga I read, since ecchi as fan service is usually not serious and very silly, unlike the drama type of yuri and yuri as the main plot. Being yuri would make it look more stupid to me (as stupid as the pervert harassing girls). But that's just my opinion. And I would prefer yuri to be the main plot such as the one you mentioned above rather than fan service unrelated to the plot, therefore those who are not into it can avoid it altogether.

Quote from coffee_11

I think most manga creators assume the male readers who like yuri are into the yuri in hentai or the "moe" ones in Yuri Hime S (that's probably true for otaku in Japan who read yuri). I meant there was a lot of that type around.

Yeah, which is unfortunate for the few of us out there like me who like serious, non-hentai yuri and have an aversion to josei/shoujo art and plots.

I do enjoy some josei yuri titles (they are more realistic to me since I am female and tend to relate myself to the situations) but I definitely don't want yuri as ecchi fan service in the shonen/seinen manga I read, since ecchi as fan service is usually not serious and very silly, unlike the drama type of yuri and yuri as the main plot. Being yuri would make it look more stupid to me (as stupid as the pervert harassing girls). But that's just my opinion. And I would prefer yuri to be the main plot such as the one you mentioned above rather than fan service unrelated to the plot, therefore those who are not into it can avoid it altogether.

I suppose I can see your point. I'll still hope to see yuri flavored fan service in the manga I follow though, because, I for one, like that variety of ecchi.

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Quote from Walrothetacoking

I suppose I can see your point. I'll still hope to see yuri flavored fan service in the manga I follow though, because, I for one, like that variety of ecchi.

I remember I saw that in Freezing and a few others though it's not full of it on every page (I guess that's what you want?). I am sure that's one of the reasons you read them while I avoid them (like Freezing).

Forgot to add, one thing I hate about some ecchi is that it is about how a guy wants sex a lot but NEVER gets it. I can't understand why the readers have patience for that kind of story. They should either write real funny stuff (very rare in manga and anime) or make the guy get it. That's why I suggested smut.

Quote from coffee_11

Quote from Walrothetacoking

I suppose I can see your point. I'll still hope to see yuri flavored fan service in the manga I follow though, because, I for one, like that variety of ecchi.

I remember I saw that in Freezing and a few others though it's not full of it on every page (I guess that's what you want?). I am sure that's one of the reasons you read them while I avoid them (like Freezing).

Forgot to add, one thing I hate about some ecchi is that it is about how a guy wants sex a lot but NEVER gets it. I can't understand why the readers have patience for that kind of story. They should either write real funny stuff (very rare in manga and anime) or make the guy get it. That's why I suggested smut.

But by allowing characters to have sexual relationships so easily and at the same time making that the objective of the manga leaves the characters very little time to develop. The constant stalling of a physical relationship in manga leaves characters time to show more than a few facets of their character, yet the ecchi serves the purpose of still fulfilling some of the desires of the reader. And perverted characters are annoying.

Also, this may be a matter of socialization. Girls are used to being approached for sex, taking on a passive or even defensive role in the relationship, making it seem like a matter of course. Guys usually have to actively pursue a relationship to reach the objective of sex. The difference in perspective makes the easily obtainable sex in smut seem unrealistic and unobtainable to men, yet women are more likely to see such a situation as possible. And of course, guys who seem outright perverted and sex obsessed seem undesirable to most women, so of course they're going to have trouble getting laid.

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