I have noticed this long ago ...and the current poll made me want to comment:
This site uses the terms "shoujo ai" and "shounen ai"...
This is not correct.

The term for non-porn gay works is "BL" (Boys Love).
...or rather non-porn gay works, that is directed at women.
"BL" and "yaoi" is made for women (and generally also by women).
I notice that there is no term used here for gay manga, that is actually made for gay men, which is known as "gei comi" or "bara". Apparently, it can also be called "ML" ("Men's Love").

The meaning of the term "shoujo ai", is essentially the same as "lolita complex" or "lolicon".
Not lesbian romance.
(note: I consider "lolita complex" and "lolicon" to be two very different terms. "Lolita complex" comes from the book Lolita, which deals with hebephilia, i.e. attraction to girls in puberty. "Lolicon" generally refers to pre-pubescent girls. Just another case, among many, of the Japanese using "Western" words or concepts, differently to how they are used in "The West")

The term "Yuri" refers to works about lesbian relationships (romantic and/or sexual), regardless of whether or not it's so innocent as to not even contain a single kiss, or if it's hard core porn.
Apparently the term "GL" (Girls Love) is also used, but that's mostly just by publishers and it is used instead of "yuri", so it presumably also covers both the innocent and the pornographic.

Granted, for a site like this, it's useful to differentiate between pornographic works and non-pornographic works ...but to use "shoujo ai" is the wrong way to go about it, as it means something completely different.

...oh, and just to make it clear: I'm don't read a lot of either, I just kinda like to be encyclopaedic in my knowledge.

So... whats the point of all that? It looks really complicated.

Not only that, but a lot of this is just incorrect.

Umm... like the above poster said - what's the use of this thread? The site has categories based on Shonen-ai, Yaoi, Shojo-ai and Yuri...

[img]http://media.tumblr.com/e43f35cfdd762cc666571a6dd0f163d5/tumblr_inline_mhbel8Cy8V1qz4rgp.gif[/img]

Well you're right in a way but just to clear few things.

1. Bara tag exist, but it's just a tag as it's a sub genre in the wider genre of BL; and btw generally it's used "gei comi" or "gachi muchi" (or at least when I asked in specialized store nobody knew what bara means).

2. This is a site meant for non-japanese audience.

While the terms are indeed used in Japan as you said you must understand that everybody are using it differently. Yaoi/Yuri for porn and shounen-ai/shojo-ai for romantic stories, regardless if it's pretty boys or buffed man, etc

No need to enforce changes here because Japan uses the terms they way they do, when people using this site will start to use different terms is when the changes will be needed.
And this was pointed out years before and nothing changed, I doubt anything will be done to change that now.
I'll admit though, I prefer terms BL/GL but really all to often I find people who don't know what the it means (even inside the avid genre readers).

Quote from Cthylla

Not only that, but a lot of this is just incorrect.

How so? Please do explain.

Quote from strixflash

Umm... like the above poster said - what's the use of this thread? The site has categories based on Shonen-ai, Yaoi, Shojo-ai and Yuri...

...which are wrong.

Quote from Chibi-Chibi

Well you're right in a way but just to clear few things.

1. Bara tag exist, but it's just a tag as it's a sub genre in the wider genre of BL; and btw generally it's used "gei comi" or "gachi muchi" (or at least when I asked in specialized store nobody knew what bara means).

Bara is not a sub-genre. It's completely different.
It has practically nothing in common with BL/yaoi.
...and you may be right about "gei comi" being the more common term. Either way, both are used, both are correct and I did mention both. In fact, I mentioned "gei comi" first.
I mostly use Bara here because you used it predominantly, and also it's shorter and easier to write.

Also, you mention "gachi muchi".
I looked that up and "gachi muchi" is a sub-genre of BL.
It is not, however, Bara. It's BL with a bit of Bara aesthetics, but has otherwise nothing in common with it.

2. This is a site meant for non-japanese audience.

Yes. However:
Shounen ai is still wrong and it's being used less and less, with BL being used a lot more instead.
Besides, who wouldn't understand what "Boys Love" means? (in this context)
People might not understand if you just write BL, but if you write "Boys Love"...

Also as I said, shoujo ai/shounen ai, isn't just not the Japanese terms (despite the Japanese words), but it actually means paedophilia/hebephilia/ephebophilia (i.e. adults attracted to young, non-adult girls/boys).
So it's not just inaccurate, it has a completely different, and sinister, meaning.

I tend to agree with the others. The vast majority of people who use this site are not Japanese and therefore we use the common terms which everyone understands due to their high functionality, even though they mean something else in the source language. I suppose you will also argue that the site should include comics from all around the world as manga in the Japanese language does not refer to Japanese comics specifically? Or that everyone on the site must now specify "Japanese anime" instead of just "anime" when they are looking for Japanese animation, since anime in Japanese does not refer specifically to Japanese animation?

Hundreds of languages borrow words from other languages and change the meaning somewhere along the way. That's a fact everyone must accept as it is popular use that decides what a word means.

世界のどこかに必ず
キミの居場所がある筈

Quote from mogiks

Hundreds of languages borrow words from other languages and change the meaning somewhere along the way. That's a fact everyone must accept as it is popular use that decides what a word means.

In the case of manga/anime they mean comics/cartoons in Japan, but mean Japanese comics/cartoons in "the west". That is true.
However...

But in the case of shounen ai/shoujo ai, they are terms for which already there exists proper terms (BL/GL). Terms that are already being used in "the west", and which are gradually replacing the terms shounen ai/shoujo ai, in "the west".
The use of shounen ai/shoujo ai here, perpetuates their usage. Replacing them with BL/GL would speed up the rate at which those terms replace shounen ai/shoujo ai and would not really cause that much confusion.
Quite the contrary: it will prevent the confusion one may get, due to the fact that the Japanese use a completely different term (as many a manga fan, is likely to at least get some degree of contact with these things, or fellow fans of them, in Japanese)

Many words get a different meaning when they get borrowed into a different language, true. But that doesn't mean that they always keep that meaning, or that it would be wrong to "correct" it.
Indeed, there are many cases where an inaccurate loanword has been replaced with a more accurate term.
Also, it's not just that the words have a different meaning in Japanese, but that the different meaning is... rather unfortunate.

Why would it be bad to encourage the replacement of shounen ai/shoujo ai, with BL/GL?
Why would it be good to promote the use of shounen ai/shoujo ai, over BL/GL?

nah, i like it as it is. but hey, nothing stopping you in your crusade for proper words.

We will not be changing any of the genres/demographics in terms of their definitions. We will also not be adding anything to that list

A just ruler amongst tyrants

Nah, the ones who come here are mostly otaku, and I think we are more fammiliar with the term shounen ai. In fact, I knew the meaning of shounen ai first before I even know what the heck is bl.

BL/GL includes both pornographic and non-pornographic manga, while shounen/shoujo ai only include the latter. That's why we need the term. In fact you said this yourself, so I have no idea for what you're argueing here.

[img]http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/a8ee/v1c0uzwpt6cdtcbfg.jpg[/img]

Quote from zarlan

I have noticed this long ago ...and the current poll made me want to comment:
This site uses the terms "shoujo ai" and "shounen ai"...
This is not correct.

But this has become the usage in the US, and so it is correct here. The term 'BL' was invented in Japan to avoid the connotations of pedophilia that the original term, 'shounen-ai' (literally 'Boys' Love) had. Unfortunately, the new term 'BL', short for 'Boys' Love', has exactly those connotations in English, so I don't think it's wrong to continue to use 'shounen-ai' here. Also, 'yaoi' is also wrong. In Japan it is a derogatory term used to refer exclusively to self-published works. In my opinion, we have taken all these terms and successfully adapted them to our needs. No harm, no foul.

I notice that there is no term used here for gay manga, that is actually made for gay men, which is known as "gei comi" or "bara".

This you are absolutely right about. 'Bara' and 'yaoi' are two different genres, written for two different demographics. They have no common history, and neither is a subset of the other, though some yaoi mangaka sometimes draw in a bara-ish style. Bara is in fact a subset of seinen. Bara should be added as a demographic, and the category tag 'Bara', currently used both for Bara and yaoi that looks a little like bara, should be changed to 'Bara-style yaoi' or something like that. I would be willing to switch these titles myself.

Quote from lambchopsil

We will not be changing any of the genres/demographics in terms of their definitions. We will also not be adding anything to that list

But it seems that much-needed improvement to the database is not going to happen. 😔

So I'm trying to think of a way to accomplish this with the tools we have.

1. Remove the 'Yaoi' demographic tag from bara titles, and just list them as 'Adult'.
2. Make a 'Bara-style Yaoi' category tag, and use it for yaoi, then vote down the yaoi that have already been erroneously tagged 'Bara'.

Bara can for the most part be determined by the mangaka and publication. For those in doubt, I could leave in the yaoi tag. I can get started on this is when I have time, if that is OK. I'm not sure how else to do it. Is there a better way?

Quote from -shiratori-

BL/GL includes both pornographic and non-pornographic manga, while shounen/shoujo ai only include the latter. That's why we need the term. In fact you said this yourself, so I have no idea for what you're argueing here.

I have never claimed that BL could include pornographic works.
If you wish to claim that I have, please provide a quote of where I have done so.

Quote from scarletrhodelia

But this has become the usage in the US, and so it is correct here. The term 'BL' was invented in Japan to avoid the connotations of pedophilia that the original term, 'shounen-ai' (literally 'Boys' Love) had. Unfortunately, the new term 'BL', short for 'Boys' Love', has exactly those connotations in English, so I don't think it's wrong to continue to use 'shounen-ai' here.

Just as shounen ai became the term in "the west", BL is becoming the term, while the use of shounen ai is declining (thus ceasing to be the term).
Also, the "boy's love" connotation isn't all that problematic, given that these terms are pretty much only used among manga nerds, and not the general public ...and most Boy's Love involves boys, anyway, doesn't it? (admittedly, I don't read BL or Yaoi, but that is my impression of things)

Also, 'yaoi' is also wrong. In Japan it is a derogatory term used to refer exclusively to self-published works.

Yaoi was originally derogatory, but I have not heard anywhere, that it is still derogatory ...aside from when it is used by people who consider gay comics to be bad, anyway, making it derogatory, regardless of the term used. If someone derides X, you cannot make it more acceptable, by changing the term, by which one refers to X. That's not how human behaviour works.

It can, however, be confirmed that Yuri is a term that, in Japan, isn't used by publishers, but generally only by fans. This is, however, clearly not because of Yuri being a derogatory term.

In my opinion, we have taken all these terms and successfully adapted them to our needs. No harm, no foul.

...until you, e.g., try to talk to a fellow manga nerd, who is Japanese.

I'll accept the highly inaccurate usage of hentai (used by us as "porn", where it actually means "perverted porn". Regular porn isn't hentai in Japanese), here and elsewhere, because it's so deeply ingrained.
Shounen/shoujo ai aren't deeply ingrained. Indeed, they are already being, slowly, replaced by BL/GL.

This you are absolutely right about. 'Bara' and 'yaoi' are two different genres, written for two different demographics. They have no common history, and neither is a subset of the other, though some yaoi mangaka sometimes draw in a bara-ish style.

Nice to see someone here agrees with something I've said. 🙂

2. Make a 'Bara-style Yaoi' category tag, and use it for yaoi, then vote down the yaoi that have already been erroneously tagged 'Bara'.

I'd agree with that. For the BL/Yaoi with Bara aesthetics, such a tag would be appropriate.
For actual Bara, there should be a genre ...which clearly isn't going to happen, sadly.

Quote from zarlan

It can, however, be confirmed that Yuri is a term that, in Japan, isn't used by publishers, but generally only by fans. This is, however, clearly not because of Yuri being a derogatory term.

http://www.mangaupdates.com/publishers.html?pubname=Comic+Yuri+Hime

?

[img]http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/a8ee/v1c0uzwpt6cdtcbfg.jpg[/img]