Vegetarianism
11 years ago
Posts: 412
Quote from reanmeih
As for the pet thing. I'm trying to say that if you don't eat your pet, don't eat any meat at all. Or at least, that was what I was saying back then. Humans live without meat. I know ppl say things about health issues, I cannot confirm whether that is actually true or not, but I do know that that classmate in particular is perfectly healthy. Of course, you wouldn't want to kill your pet if you liked it. But at the same time, why would you want to kill perfectly good strangers? o.O Then again, some might think the other way and that they eat their pet because it's their pet. I can see that happening in some corner of the world too, which I do think is actually more logical. I for one, am certainly considering my options in regards to your parent to pet comparison...
Actually people do eat pets. I have heard, no seen families who take care of turtles (or toroises?) which have gone astray. They usually eat it after it grows completely. This takes 4-5 months probably. Till then they care of it really well.
11 years ago
Posts: 122
Quote from bakerygirl
Actually people do eat pets. I have heard, no seen families who take care of turtles (or toroises?) which have gone astray. They usually eat it after it grows completely. This takes 4-5 months probably. Till then they care of it really well.
Ahh thought that might happen. Not the most likeable motive to take a pet, but yea, I guess it happens. It's not much different from raising cattle really. Not the one I was referring to previously.
Member11 years ago
Posts: 1181
11 years ago
Posts: 122
Quote from Knightzomegaz
Try reading Gin no Saji...
Eating animals that you cared for..
One manga I dropped some time back. >v>;;
Comedy was a bit too in the way for me. I can totally see that happening in it though. Most likely what I meant too, though I have no memories of the contents myself lol.
11 years ago
Posts: 412
Quote from reanmeih
Ahh thought that might happen. Not the most likeable motive to take a pet, but yea, I guess it happens. It's not much different from raising cattle really. Not the one I was referring to previously.
I know. Just felt like mentioning it 🙂
Quote from Knightzomegaz
Try reading Gin no Saji...
Eating animals that you cared for..
It's been on my wish list for entirely too long now. I have been re reading manga too much lately.
11 years ago
Posts: 833
Quote from bakerygirl
Unfortunately I can't share this viewpoint. The thought of killing and eating things whose emotions are quite apparent makes me squirm.
But if I still remember correctly it was about which is the better choice if you have to eat meat, or if you're not ethically against eating meat. Even if you think eating meat is fine, taking dozens of lives more than necessary would be waste, no? Of course if one thinks eating meat is wrong in the first place no matter the reason, then it doesn't apply to them.
But even still, murdering one person might make you a murderer, but killing dozens makes you a mass murderer. Even if murdering is considered bad and even in a comparison to a mass murderer it still would, that doesn't mean murdering dozens isn't more bad. This is about accepting some realities in life. If it's necessary to your health to eat meat (if—let's not consider other options for clarity's sake), then accepting the reality of it but still wanting to do as little harm (if you consider it such) as possible, then the example in question does work, and it's not hypocrisy, it's realism.
Now, the other points of view to take into consideration. If you think taking life is absolutely unacceptable and that it's better to starve than kill to live, then that's that. The second is if it's possible to get the nutrients one would normally get from meat by purely vegetarian diet, and it is. Whether that's practical though, or possible in a specific person's situation is another matter. I'm sure everyone will weight the options how they see best.
To be clear, this is not what I think. But this kind of reasoning is also logical and I could well accept it. Then again, I don't see eating meat as wrong in any way. A different issue is animal welfare and whatnot. In that matter, if becoming a vegetarian would change it I could understand that as a reason to do so. I does not. I do understand many reasons to become a vegetarian. Some prejudicial and hypocritical, some logical and justifiable. And I see no issues in why it would be a bad choice in general—that is, not including possibilities that in some places it just wouldn't work.
And I do understand your point of view. I've never been in the position to do so, but I have some doubts as to if I could/would eat meat of an animal I would sympathise to such extent. I imagine not.
Quote from reanmeih
First of all, really, did I get on your nerves somehow? I know I do the same a lot, but seriously, don't prick at everything I say. Actually, I was doing it where you quoted me lol. Yea, you got on my nerves a bit and I'm talking with some thorns then. Couldn't quite agree with half you said. I'll apologize if I overdid it. Now, please leave it at that or else we'll end up starting a flame war.
Did you get on my nerves? No. I don't understand why you think I did. I thought I was very matter-of-fact and made proper arguments. I thought you did too. You tell you were annoyed and being a prick, basically. I didn't notice.
You couldn't agree with which half of what I said? Aside from the pet matter there wasn't much anything to agree or disagree with. I pointed out your reading comprehension. I didn't accuse you of being a crazy murderer. I asked if you would kill your parents just as readily as you'd kill some crazy murderer. To clarify this: both your parent and a crazy murder (someone you don't know, not you) are both objects of potential killing. Get it?
Nihilism is not a religion, it's a philosophical doctrine. And it's common knowledge, not something you need to be a specialist for. But you don't know it? Fine. Not everyone does. Never mind. I also used the term "nihilistic" for the reason that I didn't mean to indicate you're actually a nihilist, but that you're negating some traditional values. It's not like defining one as Buddhist or Atheist. From those one would be either or.
What I referred with that was as follows. Buddhist view is similar, I think, to yours. There's belief that would make it pointless to be sentimental about someone's death. As you said, life just is. The difference is that Buddhism reaches towards a specific end and values life. You, on the other hand, negate some of this. This is why I said you've got nihilistic traits, rather than being Atheistic in the popular sense that you don't believe in anything beyond this life (and in the traditional definition it describes that even worse).
Okay, I hear you about the pet matter. So think of it like this. If you felt like smashing a computer, and there was a place where you could smash computers for free. Now these computers were made to be used, someone put their time for making them. You've made your mind to smash a computer. Would you still smash your own computer? That would be illogical. It's your computer, it's got it's use, it would inconvenience you to smash it.
There might be exceptions, like your computer broke down or you decided to buy a new one. Your pet might have to be put down and you want to eat it. Sure, I can see the logic now. But eating your perfectly healthy pet when it's not for any romantic reason or something when you could just go to a store and buy some meat? The logic just flew out of the window. If you like your pet, don't have any eating fetish and you like to play and be with your pet, then how does it compare to meat of an animal that you've no connection to?
The same with wild animals. Wolves kill rabbits and deer. Sometimes they kill other wolves, though rarely. Would they kill someone from their pack? No.
The differing opinion, such as yours, comes when you don't think of meat as food. But there doesn't need to be some sentimental reason to eat meat. It can have value with just as food. And something that tastes good, is healthy and makes you feel good at that. Also, if a person's pet held no significance for the person, why would they have gotten it in the first place? If it's all the same to you if everyone in the world died (I don't mean not sad, I mean if it didn't matter at all), I can understand if you can't differentiate with something close to you, something that is yours and with which you interact with, something that holds some purpose to you, and then with something that holds value to you only as food. Tasty food.
Sorry for the length. Going away for hours between writing really corrupts the flow, but anyway, if you don't get what I'm trying to say, just forget about it.
As for 天葬, yes I saw it in Tibet once. Didn't actually see it happen, I think it was after it had happened, there were some bones and stuff. Perhaps they were preparing for another, I don't know. But yeah, it's still practised there, apparently. And I have a rather positive opinion of it, too. Cremation comes of a tad pretentious. Then again, I do understand the religious, the abstract, aspect of it. Burial also, I see as more down-to-earth (no pun intended). But 天葬 does perhaps even more so. It also reminds me of a certain humble old man, now deceased, who once said in his old age: "When I die I don't need any fancy burial, just put me in a sack and go throw me in the forest where the animals can eat me". But no, they held a burial for him. Obviously.
Far-off places with sweet sounding names.
11 years ago
Posts: 122
Ah well, I'll ignore most of that since I'm too lazy to argue. It's good if you never noticed lol, I mean, I could have very well chosen another word rather than accuse... but I didn't. There's more than enough ppl catching on to that and making a big scene of it. That's not the point.
Point is, yes, if I feel like smashing something I'd first of all, go for what's not mine. Things went a bit differently after getting into trouble some couple times cause of it... but yea, I do get your point. What I'm trying to say is that, don't at all. It's not necessary. Just don't. From my point of view, especially back then, if you treat your pet as such there is no reason to treat others differently. There's no reason he couldn't just very well become a vegetarian. Unlike smashing comps, eating meat was not a point that was already decided upon no matter what.
Now... I DID actually threw one comp across the room and broke it once lol. It was partially mine, and I still threw it. Thought it wouldn't break THAT easily, it wasn't an heavy throw...
Nihilism... whatever. I won't dive into that. As I said, I lack knowledge on it, and plain lazy to try to argue. The rest? Sorry, too lazy. Will leave it at that. Sky burial, I'm no expert, someone might come and correct, me, but there's probably a lot of legal documents involved. Not to mention, international stuff since he wasn't from Tibet. His family was supportive, so he got lucky. But for most cases, it's like you said, no one cares and in the end they get either cremated or buried. Now, that's where opinions differ, or at least, from the "Buddhist" point of view. My mom has always made me think cremation is better, simpler, and leaves behind nothing. Burial takes up space and coffins and all that stuff. But, I know nothing of both, so my take is what you said, throw them into a forest and let nature does its work. Helps with the food shortage too.
11 years ago
Posts: 245
I eat more veggies and fruits than meat. But I'd never give up meat. That'd be a sad existence indeed, at least, for me.
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11 years ago
Posts: 437
I am a meat lover. I love meat so much that I can eat it everyday. I prefer eating things that don't have many bones so I usually only eat pork, beef, turkey and chicken... lizard meat disgusts me so no...
As for vegetables, I'm mostly OK with them, expect for onions, peppers and fried tomatoes.
I don't think I could ever become a vegetarian, even though I disagree completely with animal torture of any kind, be it for sport or in factories. Inhumane actions takes away the tasty in meat. >__>
Lol, As for emotional attachment, I cannot eat animals that I have raised.
It just makes me shiver the memory of my mom trying to make me eat, my brother's chickens. They tasted so bad, that I ended up throwing up. I remember that I had to give my little sister the rest of my food. So I like to apply a Spanish saying 'Ojos que no ven, corazon que no siente' which means 'What you don't know won't hurt you'. I applied it for the past 15 years and it works like a charm! =D
But I'm trying to overcome that fear/disgust/whatever it is because my parents have a piece of land in the country side and want to raise animals for food... plus since I love turkey meat, I'd love to eat as much as I can of it. 😃
"Beware How You Take Hope From Another Man."
11 years ago
Posts: 833
Quote from reanmeih
What I'm trying to say is that, don't at all. It's not necessary. Just don't. From my point of view, especially back then, if you treat your pet as such there is no reason to treat others differently. There's no reason he couldn't just very well become a vegetarian. Unlike smashing comps, eating meat was not a point that was already decided upon no matter what.
I understand your point of view.
But then again, it's not necessary to eat anything other than meat either. Of course the meat would need to be mostly fresh or otherwise the fats wouldn't include much any nutrients that are necessary. Couple of different things to take into consideration here. Firstly, if animals are a higher entity than plants, and whether there are different levels of importance between different animals (and different plants)?
We could decide importance by the complexity of the organism, which is the popular view. Or we could decide it based on the good that the organism achieves. We are as humans consumers, so are most animals, some are decomposers. Plants are largely photosynthesising organisms. Therefore it would seem better to eat other consumers than plants.
But the reasoning fails here because plants can easily be harvested for food without any negative effect to the amount of plants. Whether there's enough resources for worldwide vegetarianism is doubtful though. And generations of vegetarian diet does require quite diverse diet lest the immunity systems and fertility rates fail. Of course, humans are good at adapting.
Then there's the point of view that you mentioned: life is just life. Why feel sad when someone dies? And even if you'd feel sad, which is natural, it happens. That's life (or death to be specific).
Legal hunting regulates the animal populations of specific species. Hunting actually can invigorate an animal population. Without hunting a specific population, let's say deer population, could become old, have trouble finding food in the winter because of too much competition, have a negative effect in the population of other species and in the worst case cause the extinction of itself or another species. Illegal hunting and such are a another issue entirely and unrelated to the topic at hand. The only question here is whether an individual animal?one that will likely die anyway, in miserable conditions at that?is more important than an entire species. And if hunting is deemed expectable then it's obvious to not let the meat go into waste.
The other, and larger, source of meat is that of the domesticated animals. Now the problem here is that the animals have been domesticated and bred into what they are today, and most of them would not either not survive in the wild or else be an unnatural competition and drive other species into extinction.
Now it shouldn't be a matter of treating other animals besides your pet any poorer. Their circumstances are different, which is why they end up as food. It's just that their life ends sooner than it would in the wild, but then it might be a better end, and in the matter of domesticated animals, a better life too (mistreatment of domesticated animals I think is mostly a separate matter).
Another matter I'd like to bring up is horse meat. I think I said this before, but when a horse dies of old age, is put down or whatever, if it hasn't been fed any medicine that makes it unsuitable for food, it's meat can be used. Now this would in your (and mine) argument be comparable to instead of burying taking the body in the forest or do the sky burial thing. Nothing goes to waste.
I'm not trying to convince you that eating meat is the right thing to do. And as I've said, I can see many reasons to become a vegetarian, some of which are very reasonable. But even though I see reasons to not eat meat, they either don't concern me or else are based on some belief which I don't buy.
You say one doesn't need to eat meat. That's correct, and so it's just a question of whether you see a reason not to. One doesn't need to eat meat, nor any anything but. I've yet to see a reasoning based on health or animal welfare to choose either over the other. The only reasonable basis I've heard has either been one of personal ethics, religious, matter of taste or the feeling of sympathy. None of these reasons apply to everyone.
Far-off places with sweet sounding names.
Member11 years ago
Posts: 1181
Hah, I'm amazed at everyone here,
you guys just keep on bombarding us with facts and opinions,
Not really a bad thing though, but reading the whole thing is kinda, you know...
11 years ago
Posts: 4764
As in 2009, I'm still very much a meat lover.
It's one thing to eat an animal that was killed with a (hopefully) single blow or cut of the knife, and another entirely when eaten alive.
The very hard core moralist vegetarians might argue that meat is murder and all that jazz.
Sure.
If it came to it, I wouldn't mind being killed and then eaten. In that order.
Because around the world, there are people deranged enough to prepare the animal and eat it while it's still alive. Six lovely examples
This is insane and not in my opinion. It's just is.
Cultural differences be damned. This is torture.
Quote from Knightzomegaz
Hah, I'm amazed at everyone here,
you guys just keep on bombarding us with facts and opinions,Not really a bad thing though, but reading the whole thing is kinda, you know...
And your point is?
Don't read these posts if you don't want to, nobody's making you. =/
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Member11 years ago
Posts: 1181
Ahh, no, I'm just saying
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11 years ago
Posts: 412
Quote from 狂気
Now, the other points of view to take into consideration. If you think taking life is absolutely unacceptable and that it's better to starve than kill to live, then that's that. The second is if it's possible to get the nutrients one would normally get from meat by purely vegetarian diet, and it is. Whether that's practical though, or possible in a specific person's situation is another matter. I'm sure everyone will weight the options how they see best.
The thought of eating meat might make me squirm, but if it is a choice between slow death and eating meat all bets are off.
Quote from 狂気
A different issue is animal welfare and whatnot. In that matter, if becoming a vegetarian would change it I could understand that as a reason to do so. I does not. I do understand many reasons to become a vegetarian. Some prejudicial and hypocritical, some logical and justifiable. And I see no issues in why it would be a bad choice in general—that is, not including possibilities that in some places it just wouldn't work.
I am aware that a vegetarian diet is not practical in most places with the current situation. However that is so because of how humans have manipulated nature. At present if even a small percentage of the world's population opted vegetarianism then I think hunting will decrease, slaughterhouses and poultry farms will go out of business, markets will plummet and more domesticated animals will be free. This will eventually lead to ecological imbalance, which of course doesn't bode well for us.
However pro vegetarianism I might be, I have to accept it is neither economical nor pragmatic in most places. The point if therefore not converting people to vegetarianism, but ensuring more humane conditions for the animals until they are killed as humanely as possible(blast freeze i think?). You could say it is a necessary evil.
I know that I seem to have turned sides completely. Blame it on your anectodes 😛
On a side note, your arguments are wonderfully complex! I like the way you always speak as if you were a casual observer and provide unbiased opinions.
Quote from NightSwan
Because around the world, there are people deranged enough to prepare the animal and eat it while it's still alive. Six lovely examples
It is totally insane. I couldn't bring myself to read it after foie gras. My ears started prickling and I felt as if a dozen fishes were staring at me with their beady eyes. Fishes who have come to avenge their death to be exact.
11 years ago
Posts: 833
Quote from NightSwan
Because around the world, there are people deranged enough to prepare the animal and eat it while it's still alive. Six lovely examples
Lovely text. They make sure to make it sound as horrible as they can. Not that it's not horrible without the text. Your description made me think of the film Deer Hunter for some reason. People seem to need deranged things when they've experienced enough of them. Another is having lost touch with reality which enables one to be numb to specific kinds of cruelty. Similar to what happened/happens in wars. Both of the above examples, I mean.
Quote from bakerygirl
I am aware that a vegetarian diet is not practical in most places with the current situation. However that is so because of how humans have manipulated nature. At present if even a small percentage of the world's population opted vegetarianism then I think hunting will decrease, slaughterhouses and poultry farms will go out of business, markets will plummet and more domesticated animals will be free. This will eventually lead to ecological imbalance, which of course doesn't bode well for us.
Read what I wrote about hunting in my last post, though it was not directed at you. Less hunting would in no way be a good thing, and it has nothing to do with having manipulated nature to be that way. Nature is cruel, hunting is humane and healthy. What you noted about freeing domesticated animals. It would equal to abuse of the animals and could also lead to extinction of species whose natural habitat the domesticated animals would be invading. What I also noted. The natural habitat of domesticated animals is alongside humans. Also, unless they are mistreated they generally have a better life than wild animals have. The actual problem is the mistreatment of animals.
This reminds me of the arguments against incest. The usual one is that it's child abuse when an older sibling or a parent forces unwilling child to sexual activity. But here the issue isn't incest, it's child abuse. I will not be taking into account any actual argument against incest, this is a topic about vegetarianism.
"Rome has its name, not from Romulus, but from the Tiber whose original name was Rumo. Where the Tiber had that name is not of concern here; this is not a history of rivers."
The fact that it's not possible for all humans to become vegetarians has less to do with having manipulated nature and more of having over-bred.
Blast freezing? I've never heard of it being used for that purpose. Shooting an animal in the head with a bolt gun or an actual gun is immediate death. Actually, especially for bigger animals, bolt gun only stuns, but drawing the blood immediately after and result is the same as immediate death. Beheading with birds is the same. Inhumane killing methods are the exception to the rule.
Quote from bakerygirl
I know that I seem to have turned sides completely. Blame it on your anectodes 😛
No worries. I understand your opinion and sympathise with it. Even believing into something, the strict and global accordance of it is usually just unrealistically idealist. Perhaps one day we'll live in a utopia with no problems. Until then we need to be content in trying to better more realistic, existing systems.
Quote from bakerygirl
On a side note, your arguments are wonderfully complex! I like the way you always speak as if you were a casual observer and provide unbiased opinions.
Eh? Is that a compliment? Thank you. This is the second time I say this to you, only, now I'm not being sarcastic.
EDIT: bigger guns > *bigger animals
EDIT2: bigger boat, we're gonna need a bigger boat
Far-off places with sweet sounding names.
