Israel and the whole middle east fiasco
16 years ago
Posts: 147
In December 2009, the Obama administration approved $30 billion in military aid to Israel over the next decade. THIRTY BILLION DOLLARS. Twelve trillion dollars in debt, and no significant opposition in Congress.
Meanwhile, publicly we are just wagging fingers at Israel for trying to expand their territory again, and our gross public debt is over $12 trillion.
Now, I'm no anti-Semite or anything like that, but the U.S. government needs to make up its goddamn mind. Support Israel, or don't. The issue is obviously more complicated than that since there is a major Jewish element in our government and Israel is one of our major strategic interests in that region, but I just feel that this dishonest politicking will get us nowhere good in the long run.
The debate of whoever should be the rightful owner of Israel/Palestine, though, is beyond my scope of understanding or interest.
16 years ago
Posts: 70
Israel in the Gaza strip is the longest occupation by a foreign power in history. The abuses by Israel in the strip only add more terrorists/enemies to the list. At this point they are at fault. No one is going to like you in a country you occupy by force (and have troops bullying locals). Not working towards peace, and giving back the strip is just causing later generations of Palestinians to have reason to hate Israel.
I'm disappointed that my country backs them and their policies. If the US wasn't behind them, they may think twice about keeping their hostile relations with their neighboring countries.
16 years ago
Posts: 1310
Quote from Rob1988
Quote from Chaoswind
Now really, Jews stopped being victims LONG ago, and became the aggressors that is why 90% of the middle east hates them and their little country being nuked to oblivion is more than a possibility if the USA ever loses enough power and influence in the region.
The other way around, Israel is the one of the only countries in the Middle East with Nukes. The scenario where Israel is backed into a corner, by loss of allies and mounting enemies, then nukes half the middle east is much more likely than them getting nuked.
Even with all the bs about Iran... even if Iran did make a huge technological leap forward and produce their own nukes. A country based on Islamic Law isn't going to nuke the second holiest place on earth to them.
That could happen, but I would rather believe is going to be the other way around... seems like an end full of karma.
PS: What do you think about Pakistan vs India?
16 years ago
Posts: 2128
Quote from Chaoswind
PS: What do you think about Pakistan vs India?
I have no interest in cricket.
Point & Squirt
16 years ago
Posts: 742
Quote from G-17
Quote from Chaoswind
PS: What do you think about Pakistan vs India?
I have no interest in cricket.
lol am sure that's not what it meant. 🤣
16 years ago
Posts: 774
WHY ARE WE STARTING ALL THESE POLITICAL THREADS?!
I have an opinion but I don't feel like defending my position forever.
16 years ago
Posts: 131
good question holmes, this hits me seeing as I am palestinian, and so I mean I agree with a lotta people here, Israel is the enemy not the Jewish people themsleves. I mean Palestinians have a fault all in their own, the fact that they are too busy fighting each other than the REAL enemy is inexcusable. But for Israel to constantly have a need to victimize also needs to become more recognized. I've gotten into quite a few scuffles because of this haha, but I've never really regretted it. But I'm glad to see this topic hasnt gone into a crazy feud like most other topics on this subject, how intellingent we the manga community are hehehhehe!!!
I don't use "bad" words, I use SENTENCE ENHANCERS.
16 years ago
Posts: 289
Quote from Dr. Love
Yep, I agree with gan and pinkdreamer. US only aids when there's profit in sight.
In the old days (WW2) and even now(?), there were a lot of Jewish people who belonged to America's wealthiest (because the Jews happened to be very active in trade -- one of the "reasons" Hitler threw at the Germans to hate on them, since they didn't really manufacture anything of their own, but just "haggled" goods that other people made. That's another issue altogether though.)
Anywho, those rich Jewish folk happened to be (mainly) Zionists, so after WWII ended, the Alliance felt guilty towards the Jews (and wanted to please those rich Jews too), so they wanted to give them a country. I think another option instead of Palestina would have been a part of Cuba, iirc, but the Jews didn't want that. They wanted the place that was mentioned in their religious books since Jahweh promised it to their people. And yeah, Muslims, Jews and Christians lived relatively peaceful before WWII. =___=
Also, I might've jumbled some facts through each
other. My memory of this stuff is kinda hazy.
wow lot of historical inaccuracy in the claims about U.S. that have been made in the thread, WW2 aside - there have been numerous instances the U.S. has been involved in affairs with no overall national gain to be derived from the effects of their involvement at all Have we completely forgotten Haiti where the U.S. is now? and at times across history like say Kosovo, Afghanistan now? the U.S. Army has enforced an ethic of putting themselves in harms way first to protect Afghan civilians, just watch the recent news, and their code of ethics
yeah, it's not a perfect nation, it's government is by and large a republic democratic system which will inevitably bring in special interest (and has at many times in history). However, even though there are times when mistakes (sometimes big mistakes 'Iraq') happen the U.S. national ethic is one of philanthropy, and how they train their people reflects that.
We can't expect them to be everywhere saving everyone either, that's just silly. No single organization is that effective, not NATO, not UN security forces, etc. It will take many more years of human moral social development.
Quote from mewarmo990
In December 2009, the Obama administration approved $30 billion in military aid to Israel over the next decade. THIRTY BILLION DOLLARS. Twelve trillion dollars in debt, and no significant opposition in Congress.
Meanwhile, publicly we are just wagging fingers at Israel for trying to expand their territory again, and our gross public debt is over $12 trillion.
Now, I'm no anti-Semite or anything like that, but the U.S. government needs to make up its goddamn mind. Support Israel, or don't. The issue is obviously more complicated than that since there is a major Jewish element in our government and Israel is one of our major strategic interests in that region, but I just feel that this dishonest politicking will get us nowhere good in the long run.
The debate of whoever should be the rightful owner of Israel/Palestine, though, is beyond my scope of understanding or interest.
i agree with this though, but i think the influence of Jews in U.S. government is hugely exaggerated - it just so happens that the Jewish demographic tends to vote more (just look at the Asian American demographic which outnumbers the Jewish American population more than 2 to 1 - also a heavily traditionally business oriented and trade influencing number of cultures, but with a very small population to vote ratio)
Quote from Chaoswind
Quote from Rob1988
Quote from Chaoswind
Now really, Jews stopped being victims LONG ago, and became the aggressors that is why 90% of the middle east hates them and their little country being nuked to oblivion is more than a possibility if the USA ever loses enough power and influence in the region.
The other way around, Israel is the one of the only countries in the Middle East with Nukes. The scenario where Israel is backed into a corner, by loss of allies and mounting enemies, then nukes half the middle east is much more likely than them getting nuked.
Even with all the bs about Iran... even if Iran did make a huge technological leap forward and produce their own nukes. A country based on Islamic Law isn't going to nuke the second holiest place on earth to them.
That could happen, but I would rather believe is going to be the other way around... seems like an end full of karma.
PS: What do you think about Pakistan vs India?
i don't think any side using nukes would be a wanted outcome (environmental radiation and human cultural heritage devastation aside) - everyone has basically said it already but the general majority of the population are good honest people that want peace, but as with any country
the folks in power in their governments and those with influence in media (sometimes both parties are one) reflect fanatic extremism (ie: zionist) and could care less what the populace wants, until the reasonable majority has more sway progress will be slow
what was it Plato said? "There will be no peace till Kings become philosophers, or philosophers Kings." 🤣
Moderator16 years ago
Posts: 9026
Quote from APOKOLYPES
wow lot of historical inaccuracy in the claims about U.S. that have been made in the thread, WW2 aside - there have been numerous instances the U.S. has been involved in affairs with no overall national gain to be derived from the effects of their involvement at all Have we completely forgotten Haiti where the U.S. is now? and at times across history like say Kosovo, Afghanistan now? the U.S. Army has enforced an ethic of putting themselves in harms way first to protect Afghan civilians, just watch the recent news, and their code of ethics
They were upholding their image. If America didn't help, oh boy, now that would've been bad press. Also, I'm not attacking America. I'm just saying everything's done for a reason. I mean, hello, we're talking about politicians here, not NGOs.
They really did help for selfless motivations (or did they? Apparently several NGOs were "competing" against each other during Haiti. "We helped the best, so join us!")
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16 years ago
Posts: 774
Quote from Dr. Love
Anywho, those rich Jewish folk happened to be (mainly) Zionists, so after WWII ended, the Alliance felt guilty towards the Jews (and wanted to please those rich Jews too), so they wanted to give them a country. I think another option instead of Palestina would have been a part of Cuba, iirc, but the Jews didn't want that. They wanted the place that was mentioned in their religious books since Jahweh promised it to their people. And yeah, Muslims, Jews and Christians lived relatively peaceful before WWII. =___=
Also, I might've jumbled some facts through each
other. My memory of this stuff is kinda hazy.
EEEEHHHH?! When?
Cause the crusades were pretty brutal.
16 years ago
Posts: 3380
Quote from Kitteh_13
Quote from Dr. Love
Anywho, those rich Jewish folk happened to be (mainly) Zionists, so after WWII ended, the Alliance felt guilty towards the Jews (and wanted to please those rich Jews too), so they wanted to give them a country. I think another option instead of Palestina would have been a part of Cuba, iirc, but the Jews didn't want that. They wanted the place that was mentioned in their religious books since Jahweh promised it to their people. And yeah, Muslims, Jews and Christians lived relatively peaceful before WWII. =___=
Also, I might've jumbled some facts through each
other. My memory of this stuff is kinda hazy.EEEEHHHH?! When?
Cause the crusades were pretty brutal.
Aside from the crusades, there was a time when they lived harmoniously under Muslim control. I forgot which era though...
16 years ago
Posts: 914
Quote from Kitteh_13
Quote from Dr. Love
Anywho, those rich Jewish folk happened to be (mainly) Zionists, so after WWII ended, the Alliance felt guilty towards the Jews (and wanted to please those rich Jews too), so they wanted to give them a country. I think another option instead of Palestina would have been a part of Cuba, iirc, but the Jews didn't want that. They wanted the place that was mentioned in their religious books since Jahweh promised it to their people. And yeah, Muslims, Jews and Christians lived relatively peaceful before WWII. =___=
Also, I might've jumbled some facts through each
other. My memory of this stuff is kinda hazy.EEEEHHHH?! When?
Cause the crusades were pretty brutal.
I think Doc is referring to slightly more recent history.... The majority of the Middle East was under the control of European countries pre-WW2. The locals put aside there own difference for the sake of getting rid of a common enemy but once that common enemy is gone all that is left is the differences. That is why Civil War was/is so common after the pulling out of an occupying force. A good example of this is India/Pakistan.
16 years ago
Posts: 1027
Quote from Rob1988
Quote from Kitteh_13
Quote from Dr. Love
Anywho, those rich Jewish folk happened to be (mainly) Zionists, so after WWII ended, the Alliance felt guilty towards the Jews (and wanted to please those rich Jews too), so they wanted to give them a country. I think another option instead of Palestina would have been a part of Cuba, iirc, but the Jews didn't want that. They wanted the place that was mentioned in their religious books since Jahweh promised it to their people. And yeah, [b]Muslims, Jews and Christians lived relatively peaceful before WWII[/b]. =___=
Also, I might've jumbled some facts through each
other. My memory of this stuff is kinda hazy.EEEEHHHH?! When?
Cause the crusades were pretty brutal.I think Doc is referring to slightly more recent history.... The majority of the Middle East was under the control of European countries pre-WW2. The locals put aside there own difference for the sake of getting rid of a common enemy but once that common enemy is gone all that is left is the differences. That is why Civil War was/is so common after the pulling out of an occupying force. A good example of this is India/Pakistan.
That common enemy being the Turks.
If the sea were made of Whiskey and I was a duck
I'd swim to the bottom and never come up
16 years ago
Posts: 914
Quote from bedob
Quote from Rob1988
Quote from Kitteh_13
[quote=Dr. Love]Anywho, those rich Jewish folk happened to be (mainly) Zionists, so after WWII ended, the Alliance felt guilty towards the Jews (and wanted to please those rich Jews too), so they wanted to give them a country. I think another option instead of Palestina would have been a part of Cuba, iirc, but the Jews didn't want that. They wanted the place that was mentioned in their religious books since Jahweh promised it to their people. And yeah, [b]Muslims, Jews and Christians lived relatively peaceful before WWII[/b]. =___=
Also, I might've jumbled some facts through each
other. My memory of this stuff is kinda hazy.EEEEHHHH?! When?
Cause the crusades were pretty brutal.I think Doc is referring to slightly more recent history.... The majority of the Middle East was under the control of European countries pre-WW2. The locals put aside there own difference for the sake of getting rid of a common enemy but once that common enemy is gone all that is left is the differences. That is why Civil War was/is so common after the pulling out of an occupying force. A good example of this is India/Pakistan.
That common enemy being the Turks.[/quote]
and then the English. At some point it's always the English 😛
16 years ago
Posts: 88
Quote from Kitteh_13
Quote from Dr. Love
Anywho, those rich Jewish folk happened to be (mainly) Zionists, so after WWII ended, the Alliance felt guilty towards the Jews (and wanted to please those rich Jews too), so they wanted to give them a country. I think another option instead of Palestina would have been a part of Cuba, iirc, but the Jews didn't want that. They wanted the place that was mentioned in their religious books since Jahweh promised it to their people. And yeah, Muslims, Jews and Christians lived relatively peaceful before WWII. =___=
Also, I might've jumbled some facts through each
other. My memory of this stuff is kinda hazy.EEEEHHHH?! When?
Cause the crusades were pretty brutal.
fully agreed, you don't need to go back that far even to show that the relations have been strained.
here's a quote from wikipedia:
"Prior to Vatican Council II in the 1960s, anti-semitism was fairly rampant within the Catholic Church throughout Europe. This was especially true during the Holocaust during World War II. In Slovakia, for example, Archbishop Karol Kmetko responded to a Jewish plea of assistance in March 1942 with the words, 'You shall not merely be deported. You shall be killed..And this will be your punishment for your killing of our saviour.'"
okay so lets get this clear. . . anti-semitism was okay in the catholic church until the 1960s. . . 1964 if I remember correctly, now this doesn't say much about muslims though.
Still, this is only one side of the coin, this is just, rofl "just", the policy the catholic church had, not all lived by them, there were countless of catholic churches that hid jews during the holocaust and so on. another wikiquote from the same page for example says:
"However, throughout Christian history many Popes, bishops and some Christian princes stepped up to protect Jews, although it was only in the mid-twentieth century that the Catholic Church and many Protestant denominations issued major statements repudiating anti-Judaic theology and began a process of constructive Christian-Jewish interaction."
the page I took the quotes from is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_antisemitism
as for other conflicts before WW2 involving religion (19th century mainly):
- The Taiping Rebellion, the rebels wanted social reforms and to replace chinese religions with Christianity, funnily enough Great Britain and France aided against the rebellion, guess they didn't like the particular Christianity that was being proposed by the rebels. time 1850-1864
- The Indian Rebellion of 1857, one of the main reasons for this conflict was that the indians thought that the brits tried to forcefully convert them to Christianity I believe.
- The Caucasian War, (1817–1864) I don't know if this war was initially over anything religious at all, the russians invaded alot of muslim nations during this time but in 1829 it was declared a holy war, Jihad, by the muslims.
- nothing happened from this but in 1914 a Jihad was declared by the Ottoman empire against the allied nations during WW1, the emir of Mecca didn't endorse it as a holy war since they were allied with a Christian nation: Germany.
- apart from that. . . countless of conflicts with the colonalization. . . 🤢
The Jews? well they were oppressed, didn't have the same rights as other people it was getting better during the 19th century mainly though, and as someone pointed out, they were traders, hagglers etc. buuuut I'd say they're making up for it now instead 🤢
so, religious conflicts have always and will continue to exist until we all become atheists 😀
