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It's been bothering me, so I'll just ask - doesn't the girl on the extreme left, in the pink dress, look exactly like a doll?

Edit - and the one beside her too!

There are times when you will miss what you never had. I wonder how you will find what you so desperately need.

Quote from Crenshinibon

@N0x: You are literally the first person in the thread to mention any sort of forfeiture of parental rights or even address that issue with any sort of logistical basis... It looks like most of us might not agree with it, and we might find the practice deeply disturbed, but no one said anything about dragging the kids away from their parents. Dridius made an obviously exaggerated comment to drive home a point, but that's about as close as it got.

Did you just want to rant? Because that's totally fine, but you really don't need to come up with justifications that aren't present in the text to jump into it... it makes you look like a vindictive ass at worst, and a troll at best.

Dridius's comment is definitely exaggerated, but the general consensus from my cursory reading is that the parents are guilty of child abuse / need to be locked up / need to be banned from having children. This was apparent from the very first post. It is a common perspective espoused not only on this thread or even forum, but whenever this issue is brought to light on a public forum. It slips under the radar too often, with the hand-waving that they are just exaggerations (same kind of hand-waving that William Dodd erroneously made).

Tell you guys what. This one time in middle school, a couple of gothic/punkish girls were putting black makeup + nail polish all over me, because they thought it would be fun. Honestly, I thought it looked awful, but I didn't care because the girls were pretty, and it felt like I was being pampered.

Fast-forward, I went home forgetting to take that crap off. When my mother answered the door, she gave me this traumatizing, frightening look, screamed, went back in, grabbed a big-ass rolling pin, and chased me around the neighbourhood trying to proverbially "beat the gay out of me." I bawled my eyes out trying to explain while the neighbourhood kids stared in shock (and laughter).

Seen from another perspective, this was child abuse... but in the end, it really didn't matter, and I tell it as a humorous story these days to lighten the mood when chatting. A lot of people have similar experiences with "abuse" from dumb and/or eccentric parents (boys being dressed up as girls by overenthusiastic moms, and so on), and don't need to be all dramatic about it.

I dunno. Are kids more sensitive these days?

Though, that epic rant was not exactly "normal." But then again, what is? 🤣

You're right. It wasn't "normal". It was at least 3 standard deviations from the norm. 😳

Most people don't enjoy epic rants as much as I do. 🤣

EDIT: I don't think I'm being vindictive about it though. I do get passionate once in a while, but I think it's better I put feeling into it when writing novels.

Quote from Casey D. Geek

[It's been bothering me, so I'll just ask - doesn't the girl on the extreme left, in the pink dress, look [i]exactly[/i] like a doll?

Edit - and the one beside her too!

They all look like dolls, but then again...that's the point, isn't it?

I don't really care about what happens between kids and their parents as long as it isn't actual abuse or molestation or severe psychological trauma. My parents raised me well, and I'm grateful to them for that. But if they'd raised me any differently, would I have been less happy? These kids are gonna grow up to be models and actresses and the like (probably); they'll make good money and be happy (as in: their version of what is happiness). So it's all good, right? Happiness (as well as most other things) is in the eyes of the beholder.

Personally, I do not perceive being a Beauty Queen as something worth achieving (in fact, I hate being the center of attention, no matter the reason) - but that's because of my parents' personalities and the values they ingrained within me. On the other hand, someone else's parents might decide that they want their kids to experience the joys of being rich and famous...so those kids will become my polar opposite. Which is wrong? Which is right? Is it really up to me (or anyone, for that matter) to decide? I think not.

Of course, I disapprove of spending millions of dollars performing plastic surgery on people (young or old) who have no actual deformities, considering how many children from poverty-stricken countries such as mine suffer due to their families not having enough money to pay for procedures to amend cleft pallet and the like. But that is an issue concerning morality and inequality that is neither here nor there.

Quote from N0x_

Dridius's comment is definitely exaggerated, but the general consensus from my cursory reading is that the parents are guilty of child abuse / need to be locked up / need to be banned from having children. This was apparent from the very first post. It is a common perspective espoused not only on this thread or even forum, but whenever this issue is brought to light on a public forum. It slips under the radar too often, with the hand-waving that they are just exaggerations (same kind of hand-waving that William Dodd erroneously made).

Tell you guys what. This one time in middle school, a couple of gothic/punkish girls were putting black makeup + nail polish all over me, because they thought it would be fun. Honestly, I thought it looked awful, but I didn't care because the girls were pretty, and it felt like I was being pampered.

Fast-forward, I went home forgetting to take that crap off. When my mother answered the door, she gave me this traumatizing, frightening look, screamed, went back in, grabbed a big-ass rolling pin, and chased me around the neighbourhood trying to proverbially "beat the gay out of me." I bawled my eyes out trying to explain while the neighbourhood kids stared in shock (and laughter).

Seen from another perspective, this was child abuse... but in the end, it really didn't matter, and I tell it as a humorous story these days to lighten the mood when chatting. A lot of people have similar experiences with "abuse" from dumb and/or eccentric parents (boys being dressed up as girls by overenthusiastic moms, and so on), and don't need to be all dramatic about it.

I dunno. Are kids more sensitive these days?

Though, that epic rant was not exactly "normal." But then again, what is? 🤣

You're right. It wasn't "normal". It was at least 3 standard deviations from the norm. 😳

Most people don't enjoy epic rants as much as I do. 🤣

EDIT: I don't think I'm being vindictive about it though. I do get passionate once in a while, but I think it's better I put feeling into it when writing novels.

I don't personally think you were being vindictive, I'm just telling you how it comes off when a person launches into an epic rant on a somewhat tangential topic without any explicit provocation. It looks like you were just wanting to argue with the other posters and were determined to get it in there any way you could. Hence calling it a worst-case impression.

And yes, it's probably better to be passionate while writing, so long as you stay in control of your prose... truly good writing is almost always labored and mediated, after all, but a discussion on writing philosophy would take us a good deal off the beaten path.

That aside, I do think there's a difference between the types of incidents you're describing and the thread contents. While that might be a traumatic experience for you, I think anyone can turn out "fine" (or at least as much as you or I) after that type of event. They're almost normal, integral bits of adolescence, and although your mum comes across as bigoted, she doesn't sound insane to me. I suspect that most of the posters in this thread don't quite understand what type of person would take an interest in child beauty pageants to begin with, and by extension worry about that type of person actually being a parent for the myriad of other things that probably would happen in addition to that.

But, you either turn out fine or you don't. Any kid that loses their parents for one reason or another has a whole host of things to deal with anyway, adding that on to an early introduction to bizarre subculture just piles it on.

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Quote from Crenshinibon

I don't personally think you were being vindictive, I'm just telling you how it comes off when a person launches into an epic rant on a somewhat tangential topic without any explicit provocation. It looks like you were just wanting to argue with the other posters and were determined to get it in there any way you could. Hence calling it a worst-case impression.

And yes, it's probably better to be passionate while writing, so long as you stay in control of your prose... truly good writing is almost always labored and mediated, after all, but a discussion on writing philosophy would take us a good deal off the beaten path.

That aside, I do think there's a difference between the types of incidents you're describing and the thread contents. While that might be a traumatic experience for you, I think anyone can turn out "fine" (or at least as much as you or I) after that type of event. They're almost normal, integral bits of adolescence, and although your mum comes across as bigoted, she doesn't sound insane to me. I suspect that most of the posters in this thread don't quite understand what type of person would take an interest in child beauty pageants to begin with, and by extension worry about that type of person actually being a parent for the myriad of other things that probably would happen in addition to that.

But, you either turn out fine or you don't. Any kid that loses their parents for one reason or another has a whole host of things to deal with anyway, adding that on to an early introduction to bizarre subculture just piles it on.

Your assessments are either incorrect or unintentionally misleading, IMO.

One: Emphasis above on bold part in quote. I do not consider any of what I related to be traumatic experiences. I'm more resilient than that. That's the entire point. Parents do teach their children to be ignorant, intolerant, superficial, fearful, etc. This case of child beauty pageants is no different, but it's not really a big deal.

Two: as for your earlier point, what may be "an epic rant on a somewhat tangential topic without any explicit provocation" is essentially "a long confrontational post still related to the topic" to me. General subjects touched by this thread:

• abusive | stupid | crazy parents
• psychological effects on children
• society's role in managing families (whether that be selectively banning procreation or criminalizing unpopular or foolish parenting)

I don't see anything wrong with my posts. From the explicit subjects listed above, I'm clearly within topic parameters. I only strayed from the consensus, not the topics. Admittedly, my posts are often confrontational, and if anyone has a problem with that, they are free to argue. I welcome it, because my opinions are strong/unpopular, I enjoy arguing with different people from diff forums, and I don't hide that. (You can continue calling me a sophisticated troll, or just a troll for that, if you want. That's fine.) If anything, what we're engaging in now is what's clearly tangential.

You should all watch the movie Little Miss Sunshine.

Quote from calstine

Quote from Casey D. Geek

[It's been bothering me, so I'll just ask - doesn't the girl on the extreme left, in the pink dress, look [i]exactly[/i] like a doll?

Edit - and the one beside her too!

They all look like dolls, but then again...that's the point, isn't it?

In my opinion they should look like beautiful dolls, not something out of Child's Play. 🤢

To me, the problem with these mothers is that many of them are leading the future of their children in a way they won't be able to go back even if they want to.
This happens a lot in my country:

Mom wants the daughter to be a model
She doesn't really care about her daughter studies nor does she cares about the girl's feelings, she is going to be a model, and that is it, she doesn't need grades or friends.
When they are 15/yo +- One third of the girls can't stand the pressure, goes bulimic/anorexic and their chances of succeding goes down to almost 0%. They fail and then...nothing, they were "made" to be models, they know nothing else. A few suicide/die(anorexy), others get a job they don't like / with a low salary (or ,most likely, both)

The other 2/3 will try hard o get a decent modeling job and 99% of them is going to fail, and god knows how many of the lasting 1% is going to be a Victoria's Secret angel. Most of the ones who failed will have the same future as the others, will end up in a job they don't like/ with a low salary (or, most likely, both)

And here I'm being KIND with the numbers, the brazillian selectives are way harsher than that, in the easier one 1.5 million girls fight for 30 good 8 great and 1 awesome job.

So do you think it's right to gamble your daughter(son?) life in a roullette with 400 thousand numbers?
And even if the roullette had only one number, are you sure the prize you choose is the one that is going to make your daughter(son?) happy?

It's a parent job to support a daughter(son?), not the contrary.

I like how the daughter becomes a son at the end.

That is sick.
I can't properly verbalize every reason why I find it incredibly wrong.

Does the mother (and other moms who put children through this) just see her daughter as an extension of herself? I mean, what leads someone to do something so disgusting to their child?

Oh well.

[img]http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/21.jpg[/img]

Quote from Klapzi

...

It's interesting how the results can vary so wildly. Some of these kids end up being spectacular failures, but others can end up fairly talented and popular. (Justin Beiber, Kwon Boa, etc...)

Amy Chua (the "tiger mother"), prof of law at Yale, said the same thing I did earlier, about kids being more resilient than what society gives them credit for, but also puts way more weight on parental pressure than I do. I'm no calvinist, but it does seem to be the case to me that some kids will just end up screwed up and some others will turn out fine no matter what the parents do.

Your numbers, about 99% of those aspiring models failing. They might not reach the top and many of them might be damaged by the experience, but I have to wonder if there's any advantage or wisdom that comes from the experience at all.

Anyone have good examples on this? I can think of a few, aside from the obvious extremes.

Quote from Sagaris

I like how the daughter becomes a son at the end.

It must have been a big F.U. to the mom, for all the pressure that was placed on her throughout her childhood.

Quote from Sagaris

I like how the daughter becomes a son at the end.

Oh sorry, In portuguese, if there are two/a thousand girls and one guy you will always use "He". These three last phrases are made to fit more than the model example, if my text were about football players these three phrases would still fit.

You might be able to think of positive examples, but I agree with Klapzi. The worst part is that these kids didn't have a choice. If the girl had [i]chosen[i] botox, I might not feel so bad.
As I said, it's only the child's happiness that seems to be in question. If she's happy, and if all the injections do not bother her, it isn't so bad. But I don't think she is.
Yes, children are more resilient than they are given credit for. But situations in which their resilience is rutally tested should not arrive at the age of 9 years. That's plain wrong. The girl should be playing with Barbies, not makeup.
Also, in the article, it seems like the mother has an extreme case of 'sheep mentality' - "but everyone else is doing it!" Now where have I heard that before?

And those girls look lifeless in the pic. Look at them - just like a plastic doll, with the makeup and the shine and the colors. And for what, a trophy that's probably as useful as a painting?

Edit - Look at these pages, and do read the comments :
http://community.babycenter.com/post/a27637399/living_vicariously_through_your_children
http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Disagree-With-Childrens-Beauty-Pageants/1335679

Also, I don't think that those of us who are pretty young themselves can truly understand parents and their motivations, so we should allow some room for that.
The botox injections still feel wrong, though.

There are times when you will miss what you never had. I wonder how you will find what you so desperately need.

Quote from Sagaris

I like how the daughter becomes a son at the end.

That was my favorite part as well. Such a surprise ending! Never saw it coming.

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Reviews of my Work:
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NightSwan also said that she wanted to peg me, once, but I'm not sure whether to take that as a compliment or a threat...

Quote from N0x_

Quote from Klapzi

...

It's interesting how the results can vary so wildly. Some of these kids end up being spectacular failures, but others can end up fairly talented and popular. (Justin Beiber, Kwon Boa, etc...)

Amy Chua (the "tiger mother"), prof of law at Yale, said the same thing I did earlier, about kids being more resilient than what society gives them credit for, but also puts way more weight on parental pressure than I do. I'm no calvinist, but it does seem to be the case to me that some kids will just end up screwed up and some others will turn out fine no matter what the parents do.

Your numbers, about 99% of those aspiring models failing. They might not reach the top and many of them might be damaged by the experience, but I have to wonder if there's any advantage or wisdom that comes from the experience at all.

Anyone have good examples on this? I can think of a few, aside from the obvious extremes.

Sure, some of these girls may take something good out of this, but will it be enough to compensate all they obviously lost? If they do, will these girls be the majority?

My answers: It is possible that veryyy few of them can outweight their losses, but the majority will end up in a difficult situation.

I also share the tought that children are stronger than most think they are, some tough enough to turn out good even in the worst of the conditions, and I think of these model girls only some will receive any lasting mental problem, I never said they are all going to turn materialistic or shit like that.
The problem is that no matter how mentally sane you are, you can't enter a good university after 16 years not caring about studies(only an example)

Quote from Casey D. Geek

You might be able to think of positive examples, but I agree with Klapzi. The worst part is that these kids didn't have a choice. If the girl had [i]chosen[i] botox, I might not feel so bad.
As I said, it's only the child's happiness that seems to be in question. If she's happy, and if all the injections do not bother her, it isn't so bad. But I don't think she is.
Yes, children are more resilient than they are given credit for. But situations in which their resilience is rutally tested should not arrive at the age of 9 years. That's plain wrong. The girl should be playing with Barbies, not makeup.
Also, in the article, it seems like the mother has an extreme case of 'sheep mentality' - "but everyone else is doing it!" Now where have I heard that before?

And those girls look lifeless in the pic. Look at them - just like a plastic doll, with the makeup and the shine and the colors. And for what, a trophy that's probably as useful as a painting?

Oh, I do think botox for kids is extreme.

For me, it's not so much about the child's happiness. I don't care about that. 😐 (How much happiness a kid should have is, for the most part, up to the parents. Unfortunate for those of us sitting here biting our shirts in frustration. :/ )

The girls do look creepy, and I'd be a bit creeped out by the parents like everyone here. I just don't care about them, because where they live, this kind of stuff is probably "more normal", or else there wouldn't be a child beauty pageant in the first place.

These parents are idiots to me, but for less extreme scenarios (forget the botox parent) I really have to wonder how much of the child trauma comes from the eccentric parent as opposed to others' exaggerated responses to the situation... dousing the child in sympathy, telling him/her that his/her family is screwed up, suggesting that they should turn their parents in to the authorities, ridicule/bullying, providing them therapy/psychiatry, prescribing anti-depressants and other medications...

Most of the trivial stuff we hear, a bit of spanking here and there, yelling, crying, poverty, bullying, high expectations, strict parenting, eccentric parenting, etc, isn't really such a big deal to me. If it was, I swear at least half of the Asians in the world would need therapy.

The other half of sociologists say a bit of childhood hardships and trauma can be good, and can be contributors to success.