Quote from N0x_

As much as some may think, "oh but we're only talking about the BAD parents!" Who decides whom the bad parents are? Gov't? Society?

I've seen a parent accused of child abuse because she tried pushing her children through k-12 schooling faster, and put her children through what most Americans consider to be "too much schooling and extracurricular activities." I heard the same "Childhood should be about swings, mud and friends" spouted by neighbours. Some of them just jealous that their own kids didn't have the same opportunities. I suppose that parent should be locked away as well ("with the criminally insane"), so long as populist sentiments against her are fresh.
...
I am probably one of the few people that just doesn't care about these parents. They're idiots, but I say just let them do what they want. They aren't physically abusing their children, and mental abuse... well, that's hard for one person to judge. I've suffered through a lot of "mental abuse" from all sources, including my parents, and so have many others I've known. We're fine. Children are a lot tougher than we give them credit for. At least I used to think so. Why have we all of a sudden turned into a bunch of p^$$!3$?

Things I take into consideration regarding these beauty pageant kids:

• The kids aren't dying or being beaten. They aren't even being neglected.
• They might turn out a little bit wonky, but a lot of celebrity children do. No one cares about them, do they?
• Who will take care of these kids? The gov't? A foster family? Relatives who generally will be similar to the parents anyway?
• They are raised in an environment where most of the neighbours probably think this is all normal. After all, these child beauty pageants need to be acceptable or even popular for them to last.

The question is this: Is the parent harming their kid physically, emotionally, or mentally?

Obviously we can't fix every case. There are too many out there that we don't know about, that are never reported. But injecting your child with Botox is physical abuse. It is a substance that could very likely deform her face later since she's not fully developed.

Likewise, taking your kid out and hitting tennis balls AT him for hours and hours in 100+ degree weather is also abuse, both mentally and physically. (Andre Agassi's dad did that with him)

Some of these are worse than others (Botox? Hello?) But it's pretty easy to say, pushing a kid through school faster (assuming you're actually raising a kid properly, not damaging them mentally while encouraging them through) is alright. It may hurt them in the end (since social skills are far more important in our society than knowledge and academia,) but it may also help.

I'm all for what one person said, can't remember who: Nip it in the bud and require licenses to raise kids. Make it so people have to take a class on proper ways to condition and teach kids. Also, there should be certain wage/livelihood requirements, increased regulation of substances people can give their kids, and a requirement for parental time spent with children. (No parents who simply hire a 24/7 nanny and go do their own thing or work all the time.)

The world's population is already exploding. We don't need kids who have a higher chance of being messed up and taking out their frustrations on the world. It's not fair to them either. Just because someone is your kid, shouldn't mean you can do whatever you please with them.

Quote from Klapzi

Sure, some of these girls may take something good out of this, but will it be enough to compensate all they obviously lost? If they do, will these girls be the majority?

My answers: It is possible that veryyy few of them can outweight their losses, but the majority will end up in a difficult situation.

I also share the tought that children are stronger than most think they are, some tough enough to turn out good even in the worst of the conditions, and I think of these model girls only some will receive any lasting mental problem, I never said they are all going to turn materialistic or shit like that.
The problem is that no matter how mentally sane you are, you can't enter a good university after 16 years not caring about studies(only an example)

Ehh... Truancy is a crime where I've lived and "homeschooling" already requires permission from the state, so (correct me if this doesn't apply to you) I can only assume you meant the careless attitude the parent instills in the child with regards to education.

I think when you have a parent like that, there's only so much enthusiasm you can instill in a child with regards to educating himself/herself in the first place. For the most part, willingness to learn will have to come from the kid. The parent can force the child to go to school, but he could simply slog through it (barely) by sleeping through classes, copying homework, and relying on the corrupt/inefficient system to give up on him and crap him out (as a lot of public schools will do).

With regards to "not caring about studies", these eccentric parents are not that much worse than neglectful parents.

Perhaps it's because I am a lot more socially conservative than most of you that there is this lack of connection/empathy. I just don't think it's worth worrying about. I think we in Western societies just care way too much about saving other people (gosh we're too nice and considerate), whether it be saving their souls, civil liberties, freedoms, childhoods, the list of worries never seem to end.

🙁
This makes me feel so sad. Where did childhood go?

I feel almost sick when i see 11 and 12 year olds dressing like they're 20. Their brains haven't even finished developing yet and they're dressing up trying to impress others 🙁

[img][/img] A senpai tried to violate me after hearing about my transfer. BUT I RAPED HIM INSTEAD.

Quote from Binturong

You should all watch the movie Little Miss Sunshine.

OoOoOoh!! That was one hilarious movie. I almost peed in my pants when watching it in the theatres!!

Quote from Spawnblade

The question is this: Is the parent harming their kid physically, emotionally, or mentally?

Obviously we can't fix every case. There are too many out there that we don't know about, that are never reported. But injecting your child with Botox is physical abuse. It is a substance that could very likely deform her face later since she's not fully developed.

Likewise, taking your kid out and hitting tennis balls AT him for hours and hours in 100+ degree weather is also abuse, both mentally and physically. (Andre Agassi's dad did that with him)

Some of these are worse than others (Botox? Hello?) But it's pretty easy to say, pushing a kid through school faster (assuming you're actually raising a kid properly, not damaging them mentally while encouraging them through) is alright. It may hurt them in the end (since social skills are far more important in our society than knowledge and academia,) but it may also help.

I agreed earlier that this parent is stupid for using botox on a child, but I think this can be handled by doing something non-invasive, like stopping child cosmetics/surgeries, rather than controlling parenting in general. Why are botox injections or cosmetic surgeries allowed for children in the first place? Alcohol and tobacco aren't. Just illegalize the extremes. Now the issue of parents giving kids botox injections, cosmetic surgeries, and other extreme example has become a non-issue.

There. It didn't have to be a big deal. 🙂 No need to further extend the bureaucracy, and create a department of parenting or anything of the sort (not that we could afford to do that).

I'm all for what one person said, can't remember who: Nip it in the bud and require licenses to raise kids. Make it so people have to take a class on proper ways to condition and teach kids. Also, there should be certain wage/livelihood requirements, increased regulation of substances people can give their kids, and a requirement for parental time spent with children. (No parents who simply hire a 24/7 nanny and go do their own thing or work all the time.)

The world's population is already exploding. We don't need kids who have a higher chance of being messed up and taking out their frustrations on the world. It's not fair to them either. Just because someone is your kid, shouldn't mean you can do whatever you please with them.

  🤣      ... now, I'm being completely serious about this: the authoritarian in me agrees whole-heartedly with you... (except for the minor point that I don't care if a couple of parents decide that their work is too important to neglect, and delegate most of the responsibility of parenting to a nanny/grandparent/babysitter).

The world's population IS exploding, and it always seems to be the stupid people who are popping out 5+ babies. They should have their tubes tied. Yeah, I know we'd be accused of genocide (since, like it or not, certain ethnicities/nationalities/cultures encourage reproduction more than others), but the times are changing after all.

Who decides the rules though? That's the problem. See, if I or someone like me was in charge, I wouldn't have to worry about this. I'd obviously allow myself to reproduce... Crenshinibon can too (because he likes arguing with me for no explicit reasons)... you too (you're an articulate and attractive fellow, from what I remember... no homo). Most others would have to apply.

Otherwise, I don't don't really trust most authorities to be able to handle "population control". Don't trust them to resist corruption and turning this pop control into genocide or some other plot.

Quote from N0x_

Quote from Spawnblade

The question is this: Is the parent harming their kid physically, emotionally, or mentally?

Obviously we can't fix every case. There are too many out there that we don't know about, that are never reported. But injecting your child with Botox is physical abuse. It is a substance that could very likely deform her face later since she's not fully developed.

Likewise, taking your kid out and hitting tennis balls AT him for hours and hours in 100+ degree weather is also abuse, both mentally and physically. (Andre Agassi's dad did that with him)

Some of these are worse than others (Botox? Hello?) But it's pretty easy to say, pushing a kid through school faster (assuming you're actually raising a kid properly, not damaging them mentally while encouraging them through) is alright. It may hurt them in the end (since social skills are far more important in our society than knowledge and academia,) but it may also help.

I agreed earlier that this parent is stupid for using botox on a child, but I think this can be handled by doing something non-invasive, like stopping child cosmetics/surgeries, rather than controlling parenting in general. Why are botox injections or cosmetic surgeries allowed for children in the first place? Alcohol and tobacco aren't. Just illegalize the extremes. Now the issue of parents giving kids botox injections, cosmetic surgeries, and other extreme example has become a non-issue.

There. It didn't have to be a big deal. 🙂 No need to further extend the bureaucracy, and create a department of parenting or anything of the sort (not that we could afford to do that).

Botox injections can only be done by qualified medical health professionals. The mother in this case is a beautician who has illegally obtained botox and is injecting her daughter with it without any knowledge of proper dosages, effective injection sites, etc.

What this woman is doing is illegal, period, regardless of whether or not her "patient" is her own child.

Quote from N0x_

Quote from Spawnblade

The question is this: Is the parent harming their kid physically, emotionally, or mentally?

Obviously we can't fix every case. There are too many out there that we don't know about, that are never reported. But injecting your child with Botox is physical abuse. It is a substance that could very likely deform her face later since she's not fully developed.

Likewise, taking your kid out and hitting tennis balls AT him for hours and hours in 100+ degree weather is also abuse, both mentally and physically. (Andre Agassi's dad did that with him)

Some of these are worse than others (Botox? Hello?) But it's pretty easy to say, pushing a kid through school faster (assuming you're actually raising a kid properly, not damaging them mentally while encouraging them through) is alright. It may hurt them in the end (since social skills are far more important in our society than knowledge and academia,) but it may also help.

I agreed earlier that this parent is stupid for using botox on a child, but I think this can be handled by doing something non-invasive, like stopping child cosmetics/surgeries, rather than controlling parenting in general. Why are botox injections or cosmetic surgeries allowed for children in the first place? Alcohol and tobacco aren't. Just illegalize the extremes. Now the issue of parents giving kids botox injections, cosmetic surgeries, and other extreme example has become a non-issue.

There. It didn't have to be a big deal. 🙂 No need to further extend the bureaucracy, and create a department of parenting or anything of the sort (not that we could afford to do that).

I'm all for what one person said, can't remember who: Nip it in the bud and require licenses to raise kids. Make it so people have to take a class on proper ways to condition and teach kids. Also, there should be certain wage/livelihood requirements, increased regulation of substances people can give their kids, and a requirement for parental time spent with children. (No parents who simply hire a 24/7 nanny and go do their own thing or work all the time.)

The world's population is already exploding. We don't need kids who have a higher chance of being messed up and taking out their frustrations on the world. It's not fair to them either. Just because someone is your kid, shouldn't mean you can do whatever you please with them.

     🤣         ... now, I'm being completely serious about this: the authoritarian in me agrees whole-heartedly with you... (except for the minor point that I don't care if a couple of parents decide that their work is too important to neglect, and delegate most of the responsibility of parenting to a nanny/grandparent/babysitter).

The world's population IS exploding, and it always seems to be the stupid people who are popping out 5+ babies. They should have their tubes tied. Yeah, I know we'd be accused of genocide (since, like it or not, certain ethnicities/nationalities/cultures encourage reproduction more than others), but the times are changing after all.

Who decides the rules though? That's the problem. See, if I or someone like me was in charge, I wouldn't have to worry about this. I'd obviously allow myself to reproduce... Crenshinibon can too (because he likes arguing with me for no explicit reasons)... you too (you're an articulate and attractive fellow, from what I remember... no homo). Most others would have to apply.

Otherwise, I don't don't really trust most authorities to be able to handle "population control". Don't trust them to resist corruption and turning this pop control into genocide or some other plot.

What I find oddest about the general trend of your posts is that you seem to be espousing some conservative oriented ideology, personal freedoms, less government, etc, on a website dominated by individuals with a strong multicultural interest, a group that is decidedly liberal. I won't comment on your ideology itself, either in support or against it, but you have to admit that its a little silly to espouse those parts not related directly to the issue at this specific outlet. You aren't likely to change any minds or garner much support, but then, you have that freedom and I respect your right to exercise it.

That aside, I will point out that there is a need for moderation in how we handle any issue. We DO need to balance the freedoms of the individual against the needs of society, regardless of how distasteful it might be. If allowing child beauty pageants, and I do say if because I've never seen any study related to them, are a truly, predominately destructive influence on the development of children, I think we as a society have an obligation to put a stop to them. I say this because it is NOT a personal choice on the part of the party being most effected. This key point is the same reason that I support the legalization of marijuana as long as it is accompanied by the proper safety laws that alcohol has. In that case, any harm resulting from individual consumption of legal marijuana would presumably result from a conscious choice by a reasonably rational individual to partake of said substance.

Children do not get that choice.

[img]http://img.userbars.pl/69/13603.gif[/img]

Quote from N0x_

Who decides the rules though? That's the problem. See, if I or someone like me was in charge, I wouldn't have to worry about this. I'd obviously allow myself to reproduce... Crenshinibon can too (because he likes arguing with me for no explicit reasons)... you too (you're an articulate and attractive fellow, from what I remember... no homo). Most others would have to apply.

Otherwise, I don't don't really trust most authorities to be able to handle "population control". Don't trust them to resist corruption and turning this pop control into genocide or some other plot.

Yeah, that's a good point. I think you mentioned it before too. It -should- be simple to decide criteria for having kids (assuming we want to improve as a society, instead of the way we're heading,) but you never know who is going to be making those rules. If it was based on unbiased logic and studies I don't think there would be a problem. But as you pointed out... Well, who knows what criteria would start coming up. Would you have to be a Republican? Democrat? Caucasian? That could get nasty. So, I concede to your point.

I'm a bit zealous on this subject myself. I live in Utah... Land of people with 5+ kids and one of the highest divorce rates in the U.S. Need to get out of here. Blah.

Child beauty pageants lead to genocide, lol.

Here is an article on beauty pagent girls 13 years on, and they discuss how it effected them. They seem perfectly fine~ Unless you want to assume the article is a dirty lie. here

Quote from Sagaris

Child beauty pageants lead to genocide, lol.

The wonders of the internet!

@Binturong: Nice article, it's a good follow up.

This week's favorites:

• Golden Kamui

ççççççç[Ô.Ô] tsutopodus© will eat your manga and steal your cats!

Quote from Binturong

Here is an article on beauty pagent girls 13 years on, and they discuss how it effected them. They seem perfectly fine~ Unless you want to assume the article is a dirty lie. here

Interesting article, but I'm not sure it represents the trend. One of those contestants was among those lucky few who manage to turn it into a successful... well, I don't know the right word, lifestyle maybe (though that seems a little extreme). The other seems to be an extremely accomplished young woman. With a mind blessed enough to allow her to enter a prestigious school, I think she's a cut above the average child in the pageants. As I said, I'd need to see an extensive study before I formulated an actual, strong opinion on the subject.

[img]http://img.userbars.pl/69/13603.gif[/img]

Quote from brid

Botox injections can only be done by qualified medical health professionals. The mother in this case is a beautician who has illegally obtained botox and is injecting her daughter with it without any knowledge of proper dosages, effective injection sites, etc.

What this woman is doing is illegal, period, regardless of whether or not her "patient" is her own child.

Funny that the article didn't mention the legality of the situation at all... 🤨 . I wish it did.

Is what you say true though? Where did you read this? Great knowledge or sleuthing on your part if it is. I did find it odd that this wasn't already legal, but since the article didn't mention it, I just assumed it wasn't. It's shameful that I don't know the law on this matter even though I live in the Bay Area, where this took place.

All I read is that there is no legal age for Botox. It's FDA approved for ages 18-65, and physicians may exercise judgment to apply it to those much younger or older, including very young children suffering from cerebral palsy (although there's vocal opposition to its use, claiming that children have died from its use).

http://www.realself.com/question/botox-legal-age

I think it should be explicitly illegal for Botox to be applied to children for cosmetic purposes. As of now, the mother might be charged with something much lighter than physically endangering her child (unqualified use of botox?). If you can enlighten us with a better link than the above that suggests that there is an explicit legal age limit for cosmetic use of Botox, that would be great.

Quote from TheShawn

What I find oddest about the general trend of your posts is that you seem to be espousing some conservative oriented ideology, personal freedoms, less government, etc, on a website dominated by individuals with a strong multicultural interest, a group that is decidedly liberal. I won't comment on your ideology itself, either in support or against it, but you have to admit that its a little silly to espouse those parts not related directly to the issue at this specific outlet. You aren't likely to change any minds or garner much support, but then, you have that freedom and I respect your right to exercise it.

Thanks for that, but I think you overestimate the how conservative I am. I am more conservative than most of the people here, but I don't think it takes much to be so. For the most part, I agree with most people here. Consider this: I love to write a lot, and I mostly bother to voice my opinions when they aren't represented. You can safely assume that wherever I'm not offering an opinion, I agree with the majority. My input then isn't as necessary, IMO. What am I going to add? "Yeah, I agree." Or, more specific to this thread, "Yeah, dumb parents putting their kids in beauty pageants... we should lock them up." Less marginal value added. (Considering all the times I haven't responded, I'd say I agree a lot more than I disagree with most people here.)

Variety of opinion and arguments are better. It raises the level of discussion. Gets people thinking and talking. Isn't that better? Even if no one's opinion is changed, we can at least get more insight and sympathy into others' perspectives.

That aside, I will point out that there is a need for moderation in how we handle any issue. We DO need to balance the freedoms of the individual against the needs of society, regardless of how distasteful it might be. If allowing child beauty pageants, and I do say if because I've never seen any study related to them, are a truly, predominately destructive influence on the development of children, I think we as a society have an obligation to put a stop to them. I say this because it is NOT a personal choice on the part of the party being most effected. This key point is the same reason that I support the legalization of marijuana as long as it is accompanied by the proper safety laws that alcohol has. In that case, any harm resulting from individual consumption of legal marijuana would presumably result from a conscious choice by a reasonably rational individual to partake of said substance.

Children do not get that choice.

For the most part, I think we can all agree with laws to protect children. It's the mindset that scares me. I get worried when societies overreact to black swan events (rare events have greater effects on societies than day-to-day common/expectable ones due to irrational expectations and responses).

On this particular subject the mother is wrong for using Botox on her child. Botox on young children doesn't seem to be explicitly legal and doesn't carry special penalties, but it should. As for child beauty pageants, I try not to let the above affect me too much on this matter.

If the child has no choice and is being threatened to participate in these beauty pageants through physical abuse, then we can punish the parents for the physical abuse instead of punishing them for being superficial parents.

If what brid says is true, then the law is already sufficient on this matter. We don't need to implement additional punitive measures against all of the other parents that decide to showcase their kids. We can keep subjective personal feelings out of it.

Quote from Spawnblade

Yeah, that's a good point. I think you mentioned it before too. It -should- be simple to decide criteria for having kids (assuming we want to improve as a society, instead of the way we're heading,) but you never know who is going to be making those rules. If it was based on unbiased logic and studies I don't think there would be a problem. But as you pointed out... Well, who knows what criteria would start coming up. Would you have to be a Republican? Democrat? Caucasian? That could get nasty. So, I concede to your point.

I'm a bit zealous on this subject myself. I live in Utah... Land of people with 5+ kids and one of the highest divorce rates in the U.S. Need to get out of here. Blah.

An argument I had with a conservative on abortion gave me an interesting perspective on this matter (population control). Planned Parenthood was brought up.

Interestingly, the other party's main contention was that Planned Parenthood was a eugenics program. Indeed, the founder Margaret Sanger really was a eugenicist, and the campaigns were planned in a deliberate way. Clinics were predominantly set up in minority-dominant areas, and the people were described as "undesirables" who should be purged from society and prevented from reproducing. At the time, I was a much more simple-minded, intolerant liberal (having graduated from an infamous beacon of liberalism), so you can imagine how this particular perspective caused ambivalence. "Argh! Pro-choice, planned parenthood good! But... Genocide/eugenics bad!"

I still don't believe the claims that Sanger was a racist, but I certainly gained insight into how differently people can perceive your intentions.

I think N0x_'s opposing views are useful, as they make us dig deeper into why we support something and how that might be wrong as well. We live in a world full of gray, with some splashes of black and white. Constantly rethinking our view of various matters under same or different circumstances is good for us.

For the legal issues, this might help -
http://www.realself.com/question/botox-injections-who-qualified-administer-them

I don't mind beauty paegents at all. They're nice, or so I gather, and they do play a constructive role in society. And if young children want to participate in beauty paegents, that's not wrong at all. I mean, girls have been asking for ponies since the dawn of time! And boys have their own demands, which are as bad, if not worse.

Socities do tend to overeact to certain issues, but that only shows how deeply these issues affect them. For example, if there was a suicide bombing in Pakistan which killed 80, it might not matter as much to those westerners who blame Pakistan for all their terrorism woes. But the same people may be horrified by this article, and will react accordingly. It's all in your emotions.

These children's freedom needs to be protected. We live in a world of democracy, with more countries turning to democracy every year, and even more fighting for it. What use is all of that if our own children do not get a choice in their lives? It's not about how they turn out, I understand that sthese children may become amaing in their field. But did they have a choice? Or was it their parents' choice

There are times when you will miss what you never had. I wonder how you will find what you so desperately need.

Quote from Casey D. Geek

Socities do tend to overeact to certain issues, but that only shows how deeply these issues affect them.

One thing that sets liberal democratic societies apart from authoritarian ones (generally) is legalism/objectivism.

Perhaps the language has something to do with it, and perhaps mine and others' translations are imperfect, but from what I've noticed, our laws are generally more precise/less abstract and taken more seriously than ones in fascist or populist ones, where rule of man (whether that be a cult of personality, a small group, single person, or the plebeian masses) trumps the rule of law.

Laws are often intentionally written to be vague, so that their interpretations are open-ended (easy to abuse) or so that they can be outright ignored.

Laws against cosmetic surgeries or chemicals against children are more specific, objective, and leave less room for interpretation.

Laws against bad parenting in general are way too open to abuse and generally make me uncomfortable.

I take special caution on sacred cows (like children), because they are issues that deeply affect people and are more likely to induce overreactions, as you say.

These children's freedom needs to be protected. We live in a world of democracy, with more countries turning to democracy every year, and even more fighting for it. What use is all of that if our own children do not get a choice in their lives? It's not about how they turn out, I understand that sthese children may become amaing in their field. But did they have a choice? Or was it their parents' choice

I dunno. A lot of kids are brats. 😛

We already have a lot of anti-authority propaganda in our society, and it works in favour of children against parental authority. Parents are ironically being patronized wherever they go.

Finding Nemo, for instance, teaches us that a kid can disobey his parents, get himself into numerous life-threatening situations, scare his father half-to-death, and STILL have something to teach his father. Bad widower father. You should know better than to be overprotective of your only child remaining.

Admittedly, obeying/respecting authority (especially parental authority) isn't a very fun concept. Rapunzel would never have left her tower in Tangled. Harry Potter and gang would never have been able to solve the various mysteries they did. Ad naus. Freeeeedom!