Quote from Jessica_desu29

How can a creator make money if people choose to read, either through scans or uploading officials on reader sites, for free?

...
First of all, how does people BUYING THE UNTRANSLATED MANGA, harm the mangaka?
You don't exactly make a good case, for yourself, when you start of, on a foundation of completely misrepresenting what I said.
Dishonesty doesn't make you look good, or sound convincing.

Secondly, there is ZERO evidence, that pirate copying, has ever had any negative effect, on the income of any mangaka/artist/musician/author/whatever.
Not with anime/manga, movies, TV shows, music...
On the contrary!
Pirating music is know to have increased music sales, as people got exposed to more music, that they'd like!
Legal streaming, on the other hand, has had a massive negative impact, as artists only get a very tiny proportion of the income. This was true with vinyl and CD's too. Artists made almost no income, from CD sales (just living on concerts), with all the money going to the record label ...and they get a far smaller proportion, from streaming.
None of that, however, is the fault of customers. It's purely the fault of record labels and streaming companies.

...but to get back to manga!
I present these scenarios, of what happens if people read scans vs them not doing so, and ask how any of them, cause any harm, or lack of income, for the creator:

1. A person first reads scanlations of the manga, and then, at a later date, buys it.
   VS
   Buys the manga, and reads it.
2. A person first reads scanlations of the manga, and then, at a later date, buys it.
   VS
   doesn't buy it, because they don't know about it, or don't realise they'd like it.
3. A person first reads scanlations of the manga, and then doesn't buy it, because their budget won't allow it.
   VS
   Doesn't buy or read it, because their budget won't allow it. (if they're even aware of it, or realise they'd like it)

How does scans have any negative effect, for the mangaka, in any of those scenarios?
How does scans not benefit the mangaka, in scenario 2?

I'd say over 90% of these types of readers don't buy a thing

Nonsense!

Though if there is any tendency towards not buying manga, then it's because what is available to purchase, i.e. commercially "translated" manga, is utter shite.
Why would you want to give money, for an atrocious product?
Why support/encourage such abominable behaviour? (it would indicate a desire, for manga to continue being "translated", in such a fashion. For Western manga releases, to go further in that direction)

...and buying raw manga, isn't really something most would consider, as not only is it far from clear and simple to do, but most can't read any of it. Having a physical volume of incoherent gibberish, to accompany ones scanlations, feels a rather weird thing to do, for most people.

...but if they're unwilling to buy the commercial "translations", then the option would be for them to never read it, at all.
So either they don't buy it, or they don't buy it.
Either way, the mangaka gets the exact same amount!

Why should they go through all of this just to have people reading it and not giving them proper compensation?

Why should someone pay compensation, for a fundamentally broken product?
There is no justifiable reason, to pay such a "translation".
Appreciating the mangaka's work, and considering it worth paying money for, is not the same as appreciating the commercially "translated" release, or considering it worth paying a single penny, for that!

On the contrary, I wouldn't want a badly "translated" commercial release, even if you paid be to get it, and I consider it an affront to the mangaka and the original work! And also a grave insult, to any and all readers, as well as the concept of translation.
It's also fraud.

And it should be said that most creators, from Japan and especially those from Korea, are pretty explicit about not translating their works illegally.

Oh? And how much do they know about the commercial "translations" of their works? About the quality of the translations? ...and how much do they know, about the consequences of scanlations?
Nothing.
They don't know anything, about any of it!

Why not respect their wishes if you like their work?

It's not their work. It's a pathetic misrepresentation, of their work!

All of this is even more salient with respect to small or unknown creators.

Without scanlations, no one would know about small or unknown mangaka, and thus wouldn't buy any of their works.

They depend on the license to generate income.

No they don't.
The vast majority of their income, is from domestic sales.

There's more than enough content to read legally

...if you're okay with reading worthless trash.
Not only do a lot of the best stuff not get licensed, but the commercial "translations" of what does get licensed, is an abomination, that is quite different to what the mangaka actually wrote!

There's more than enough content to read legally? Yes, in the sense that I can import raw manga, but you can't expect everyone to do that.
After I've read scans of it.

you can have your opinion about whether or not professional translations are inferior to scans.

The main issue isn't the translators.
It's their bosses, who tell them to change/cut/censor stuff.
(also, the translators are often worse than scanlations, because the bosses tend to hire the worst/cheapest translators)
Unskilled scanlations are bad.
Unskilled commercial translations is terrible. (if they're gonna charge for it, they need to ensure it's good! Also, if they're gonna pay the translator... same thing there)
...but intentionally changing/censoring/cutting, and making the work something different to what it is in its original language, but selling it, claiming it to be the same as the original (just in a different language), is a lie. It is fraud.

I'll continue to wait on official translations (which are better to me)

A lot of pro translators are not at all better than me
...and I'm nowhere near good enough, to be a translator.
If you think the translations are fine... That's because you are blindly trusting the licensing companies, and have no ability to verify their translations.

Would anime and manga ever have become as popular as it is, in the West, would there be as much sales/streams/whatever of anime and manga, for a foreign audience, if not for scanlations and fansubs?
No.
There'd hardly be a market for it, and it'd still be extremely niche.
Largely unknown, outside of Japan.

Dishonesty? Okay. 😏

Buying the untranslated manga isn't bad at all. I said that. That's what you should do if you read an illegal translation and liked it. That's what I did, and at the very least, this should be a requirement for even being allowed to read a scan!

As to everything else you said... we will agree to disagree. I haven't the time nor interest to argue with anyone who defends illegal reading in any form.

Cheers.

Oh, and you have once again evidenced the very common tendency of those who read illegally to devalue to artist. They are merely the conduit to bring you entertainment. Never mind the fact that it's a privilege to read their works, not a right. Why is it only about your own comfort?

떡대수 supremacy

Quote from Jessica_desu29

Dishonesty? Okay. 😏

Where's the apology?

Buying the untranslated manga isn't bad at all. I said that.

No, you didn't. That is a lie.
Not only did you respond to my comments about buying untranslated manga, by saying that the mangaka wouldn't get any money from people who don't buy the commercial translations. (because they'd only be reading scans...), but you also made NO MENTION of untranslated manga, at all, at any point in your comment.

...oh, and I missed one bit of your previous comment:

I'll continue to wait on official translations (which are better to me) because my support of them supports the author and hopefully encourages more licenses.

Encourages more licensing, by companies that do an atrocious job of "translating".

Oh, and you have once again evidenced the very common tendency of those who read illegally to devalue to artist.

Again, you lie.
It is you, who devalue the artist, by saying that completely changing their works, is perfectly fine.

Never mind the fact that it's a privilege to read their works, not a right. Why is it only about your own comfort?

How are the artists hurt?
Unless you actually counter my arguments, on the issue, you have no right to claim that they are.
How do they not actually significantly benefit? (in the ways I've mentioned)
Unless you actually counter my arguments, on the issue, you have no right to claim that they aren't.

All of your claims, that the artist is disrespected, or financially harmed, by scans/scanlations, and/or that anything I've said, in any way devalues the artists, are complete baseless.
You provide no evidence, nor argument.
I provided plenty of arguments ...which you refuse to respond to.

Saying "we will agree to disagree" is fine, but that means that you have to end the discussion, there.
You then have no right to make any further such claims
...yet you just did exactly that, right after saying "we will agree to disagree"!
That is deeply dishonest, and disrespectful.

Put up, or shut up!
If you want to make those accusations, you first have to provide counter-arguments, against what I've said.
Until/unless you do that, your words are no more than slander and trolling.
You have no right to accuse me of disrespect, when you clearly are nothing other than disrespectful.

Why is it only about your own comfort?

I've made some defence, for readers who read scanlations
...but who are you defending, who are harmed/devalued?
As I've pointed out, you have no right to say that the mangaka are harmed/devalued.
Nor are the publishers, for the exact same reasons.
So...
Who?

Blah blah blah. No facts, no discussion, no point. Worthless commentary.

Quote from Afiaki

Blah blah blah. No facts, no discussion, no point. What an absolute waste of time.

True.
Which is why I won't make any further replies, unless she stops being dishonest, acknowledges/admits the dishonesty and apologises for it, and actually addresses what I've said, beyond just pointing out that she hasn't done so.

(if, however, you're saying I am also guilty, of what you said, that I haven't backed up my claims, haven't attempted to discuss... then that would be a baseless accusation. I.e. slander. I do hope that isn't what you are doing)

Lol.

back in the day
they used to 'rent' fansubbed videos 1:1 with commercial rentals
rent 1 video; get/rent 1 fansub which was usually 3-4 episodes/VHS tape
they had 100's of subs of current 'on tv' series'
that used to be the way it was; the popular shows were publicly broadcast

I did spend a lot of $ on manga and anime
but I think there's a lot less spending power for today's young consumers due to inflation
hobbies are much more difficult to rationalize nowadays; when in my day I carried 4-5 expensive hobbies and never noticed and was mostly minimum wage the whole time.

it's a tough thing that producers that need the money are in the same tight spot as the consumers
I think in this scenario everyone loses

here Christmas spending is forecast to be 60-70% lower than 2019 levels

maybe everyone should be on a subscription service
but I don't think that adequately rewards high and low quality product

(A pretty hot discussion up there..)

Well, I'm pretty much a reader. I also read on official platforms now, but there are still lots of manga and manhwa on my reading list that hasn't been officially translated in my country.

It's not like I've never been interested to be a scanlator, but I have neither the language skill nor the photoshop skill to support it.