It's really quite interesting that you make such a comparison to your real life father, because that's exactly the same reaction.my Dad gave when I told him God is like your perfect Father. My Dad was the oldest one in his family, but he was treated like a dog by his dad. His brothers and sisters all got free money to go to school, but my dad had to work to earn money to attend. His dad would never even once encourage him, and he never really learned how to read until he was in H.S. My dad got absolutely furious with me when I told him the father thing about God. But people make mistakes, some of them lots of times. But God is like I said your perfect Father. Where ever your real dad failed as a father God will never fail. He's been here all long, the whole time waiting for a chance to talk to you. But hes waiting for you to make the first move. I won't pretend to understand the relationship b/w you and your dad, but I promise you God is like a father like no other.

P.S. Sorry about the skirt reference, and parties, they were just examples. All though I kind of wonder growing up in Israel, are skirts really the norm?

Quote from Zubz313

It's really quite interesting that you make such a comparison to your real life father, because that's exactly the same reaction.my Dad gave when I told him God is like your perfect Father. My Dad was the oldest one in his family, but he was treated like a dog by his dad. His brothers and sisters all got free money to go to school, but my dad had to work to earn money to attend. His dad would never even once encourage him, and he never really learned how to read until he was in H.S. My dad got absolutely furious with me when I told him the father thing about God. But people make mistakes, some of them lots of times. But God is like I said your perfect Father. Where ever your real dad failed as a father God will never fail. He's been here all long, the whole time waiting for a chance to talk to you. But hes waiting for you to make the first move. I won't pretend to understand the relationship b/w you and your dad, but I promise you God is like a father like no other.

P.S. Sorry about the skirt reference, and parties, they were just examples. All though I kind of wonder growing up in Israel, are skirts really the norm?

the religious community girls wear long skirts and never pants, i dont really understand why, normal girls wear both, but since i had my troumas i only wear jeans and once-in-a-sport i wear training pants.

and all those stuff you said about god the ultimate parent, its only if you believe in that. i simply cant believe in god, the disbelief is part of me and my nature. i need to see so i can believe. my mom believes in god because she saw something that made her believe that theres something protecting us(i blame myself for that, what she saw was her only doughter (which she gave birth to in her teens), after a car accident that made her fly 6m, surviving, and only get scratches not even one bone broken. i still think it was more because i slid more then flew..).

the best security guard, EVER.

Well this is just a Zubz theory, but I really do believe we were made to love, and be loved. There is a big God shaped whole in each of us, and we try to fill it with various things, whether that be in finding the perfect boyfriend that can make us feel that we are worth something, or some kind of excitment like taking risks like going out to places where your parents don't want you to go, something that will make you feel alive. But in the end we always feel empty, there is something missing in our lives. God is definitely that something. Although you may say that you can't believe, it's just part of you, in the end only you can decide what to believe in and what not. Who to trust who not. You are indeed in control of your life. And don't wait for an accident or something terrible to happen to you to search for God. Too many people wait until they know death is around the corner or wait for some travesty to happen to really start searching. Don't be like me or your mom, and wait for the worse to find the best. You have nothing to loose for your efforts and everything to gain. How much is father who loves you unconditionally, and loves you just the way you are, worth to you?

Maybe he exists. It really does not matter that much.

The determining factor in what will happen to you, is mostly up to you. If he truly does exist, he may play a role in that determining factor but only a minor one since he'll probably the last line of defense or something. Don't know if you guys get what I'm saying but... good luck is a result of good planning. All you have to do is trust and believe in yourself. Take care of yourself instead of just totally relying on God to save you, which may or may not even happen. But your own abilities and what you'll do is certain because God is an uncertainty.

I do agree with you, that you can't sit in your home all day and wait for God to do something. That's not living in faith. You live your life knowing that when God is for you, who can stand against you. If God says you can do something, the only one that can stop you is you. That's true living in my point of view. Your absolutely right about the talents and abilities that we have, but I choose not to be arrogant, and know that they are a gift. The bible say that to those who were given much much is expected.

ahhh....you never read Dante's Inferno did you?

When Virgil went to the Hell's Limbo, he met a lot of people like Aristotles, and such who were either not baptized at birth or borned before Jesus Christ. Christ died for sins of Mankind, thus, anyone borned before him can not be forgiven on the account of Christ.

[color=green]Life, what would it be without so much wrongs and rights?
[/color]

[color=red]Star Trek XI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZiR-NETDr0[/color]

I want to take this debate in a different direction (I don't think this was mentioned before... if it had been, sorry, I must've skipped past it...)

How much do you guys know about the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

No, I'm serious.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

This is a really interesting read. Despite all the silliness (or offensiveness to some), this has a valid point.

Taken from a non-believer's view, isn't it up to the people who believe in a certain being to prove his existence... if they ever want to convince people to convert? The lack of evidence of my saying a God doesn't exist does not necessarily mean there is a God... there's just a lack of evidence right now.

This is basically Russell's teapot -- another interesting read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

I'll quote from there: "...intended to refute the idea that the burden of proof lies upon the sceptic to disprove unfalsifiable claims of religions."

So yes...? No...? I think this is perfectly valid... because most atheists aren't out there to convert Christians into atheists (we'd have nothing to gain by that... except the tuning down of annoyance from those trying to convert us)... but mostly, Christians have a set mission to convert others to their religion.

So, I state my argument to be argued against:

Atheists and agnostics have no responsibility to prove the non-existence of God, Hephaestus, Shiva, or any other deity known to (or proposed by) man.

Argue away. :]

-Max

@Ares
Oh man, thats a real great theological question. You actually got me looking all over the place for an easy explainable answer. But like I told you I've only been a believer for about 2 yrs so my doctrine knowledge isn't very good. But I do know that Jesus came to fulfill the law of the covenant so that whoever believes in him can have life. A question about people of the past being saved by Jesus sacrifice is a very good theological question and if you are interested you'll have to give me some time to understand all the different covenants, that God made with people in the Old Testament and its relation to the New Covenant set up by Christ. But short answer yes some people of the past were saved, Jesus died for all sin past, present and future.

@DeLtA
Interesting article, I think I heard this from some atheist a while ago. But if you think that I have anything to gain from you becoming a believer your right. I get a new sister in the family of God, and I know that God celebrates when he gets a lost child back, and you get a new brother along with everyone in the body of Christ, along with forgiveness, unconditional love from the God of the Universe revealed day in and day out, you get saved(a very simple word with a very complicated meaning), but most importantly you get God(there is so much more to talk about with this). I don't tell people the good news b/c I get something but because I want you to share in the reality of God's love and forgiveness. I assume you like manga, do you like it enough to talk to others about it, and if you do why? Do you get something out of it, when you have a person become a manga enthusiast? It's the same with me, not too many people get the chance to enjoy God, because they don't know about him and don't know how to reach him, it's my pleasure to tell them.

[Edit]: Your may be right about the whole idea of the burden of proof doesn't fall on just the skeptic, but the problem is that the believer can't save you. If you want God the burden of finding is up to you. God is so personal, all I can do is point to the door but it's up to you to decide whether or not you want to walk through it.

omg the Flyng spaghetti monster. that was an awesome read. that is a big smack in the face to biblical believers

HUBBY of DUBBY

i also really liked the flying spegatti monster, how great things can be

The "Russell's Teapot" is really an interesting analogy. Thanks DeLtA_IjK to introduce it

Talking about religious always remind me to this famous Pygmalion and Galatea in Greek Mythology which most of you probably already know about it

Basically, it's about a dude who admired/adored/worshiped his sculpture so much that he fell in love with it & call it his wife. Fortunately, Aphrodite heard about that & transformed the sculpture into a real beautiful woman

I think that, when people want to believe/willing to believe in something too much, the brain eventually do workout (to release the pressure...?) & create a fixed image of it & make people think it's real.

As i already said in my earlier post, IMO, religious/god is a product of human brain

"As long as we're seeing the same kind of musical vision, yeah, sure. But sometimes when things get hard, you balance out the pros and cons and say, am I being a wimp if I stay or am I being a wimp if I leave?" - D'arcy Wretzky

Quote from Zubz313

@ ares
Man, we seriously got to have a talk about Christian doctrine sometime. I don't remember it ever saying you got to be baptized to go to heaven. All it takes is faith, do you believe that Jesus actually took the death penalty for you, saved your life so that you can have life fully. But, yeah I was actually lucky in most aspects, my father disowned me for a good long time before he finally accepted me back as a son. Don't even get me started on my extended family. If you want to talk about Miracles, all you got to do is look at my family. Born completely muslim and suddenly my Mom saw this dream about Christ and thats what started the ball rolling in my family (definitely more complicated). But if you want the details, I'd be more than happy to share via PM if you want.

I don't exactly know what made you and your family change from christian to muslim... and I don't really care either. But I find that extremly funny being muslim myself. If you really where muslim and you knew what it was about, and actually believed in 1/10 of it... There is no way that seing a dream with the christ in it could have changed Anything! You do realise that muslims believe in jesus right?
And you know that we think that he isn't dead. So amaong all the people that could try to talk to you. He is the only one that still has the power to. So it actually makes perfect sense for a muslim to see a dream about jesus... I dreamt of jesus when I was young. And actually he even told me that he was comming back soon in that dream lol.
But you know what I don't place extra value to dreams. Dreams are just that dreams. But this isn't the subject here.
All I wanted to say that I'm sure you never knew Islam in the first place. And if you knwe and still decide to change... that's probably because you where looking for the religion that promises a lot and asks nothing. the easy way out in short.

I need no sig...

If God is all knowning then there cant be free will, free will implies that our future isnt already set. So if there is an all knowing God there cant be such a thing as free will.

Seeing as I'm sitting here on "rapture day" [7/7/7) thrashing out to Slayer, no prizes for my position.

If you ARE a believer, read "The God Delusion" and watch "The God Who Wasn't There".

Then come back and argue.

To quote Douglas Adams, a famous atheist, "..'.I refuse to prove I exist', says god, 'for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing', and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic."

Religion bears no logical examination.
God is made in the image of man, not vice versa.

As Trent Reznor would have it, "YOUR GOD IS DEAD! AND NO-ONE CARES! IF THERE IS A HELL! I'LL SEE YOU THERE!"

Yes, but you we stop believe in God, people will start committing suicide like there is no God.

[color=green]Life, what would it be without so much wrongs and rights?
[/color]

[color=red]Star Trek XI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZiR-NETDr0[/color]