I think you got wrong what I wrote -sorry but engrish is not my first language- I use bleach because it was also used before and since is popular and with fillers is the only availabe for me to offer a comparison -read page one of the topic you will see that it started there- and so that no further replies are required I will tell you -because you didn't get it ^_^- I read and watch both and that if I say that the naruto filler was bad is my "opinion" and thats it.

I quote myself.... ""

^_^ I remind you this is my personal "opinion" and that I don't care if you agree so if you are a lover or hater it has nothing to do with me... To the ones that read all my rant I say thks since I always sidetrack but if I can advice you watch/read Naruto once again as is getting good \>_</ banzai

in my opinion, since hey that is all you are gonna get anyways, naruto was not half bad, of course I tried watching the anime, frankly I got bored since it was like re reading it, but the voices I gave to the characters were better (Oh and I am referring to jap version, English voices always suck for anime, only exception was some of the old great ones). either way after a while even the manga lost my interest. seriously after a while you just stop carrying. Since Bleach was mentioned, I must say that was an enjoyable anime and manga to watch, I was not a fan of the filler and stopped watching the anime when the doll filler hit. and as for the manga I still occasionally read it. the only long manga/anime I seem to enjoy is One Piece for some reason, I like 10+ episode long fight seens (in manga it seems like a volume is sometimes dedicated to one day of fighting)

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if you ever refer to me in light of the complex manga (http://www.mangaupdates.com/series.html?id=1731)

I will hunt you down and kill you!

*sigh* you again. you ask why the hatred?

do you know the meaning of opinions at all every one has them, and not EVERYONE agrees with each other. it's all about personal taste. i mean, just because you think its the greatest in the world does not mean everybody HAS to agree.

i mean, even you hate some manga which other people find great just as there are some people who hate the manga you find great. yeah, i read your review of Bleach , and just as you find the criticism for naruto was insane, yours towards Bleach was no different. now, i don't mind you hating Bleach, but i'm irritated with how you hate haters when you're a hater yourself.

and if you're gonna argue that the criticism made for naruto was too critical and hurtful compared to other series, then its all just you, since you're a big fan. before a person hates something, there must be a reason just as you have towards Bleach. those haters have their reason and told it just as you did. its irrational to you, but its rational following their individual taste, just as it is rational as to why you hate Bleach. their argument may be a 12 year old level, but hey, they're just telling the honest truth.

in a nutshell, before you rant about haters bashing what in your terms is a masterpiece, remember they are no different than you. they have opinions and personal taste, like you too. a group of people can agree with something, but not everyone in the world will agree with everything.

oh, and by the way, in terms of shonen manga popularity, Naruto is placed second in the world. overall viewing percentage, numerous polls and sales of the manga, DVDs and other merchandise is proof of that. a few steps ahead of Naruto is One Piece (about this one, sorry, but i'm too much of a fan of the series to let it slide)

ok guys.. calm down.. i thought i'd let this one go on for a while but it's looking like it might not turn out so well...

Meh, I was already suspecting this would happen, Manick...These kind of threads where people's opinions collide usually end up badly.

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A just ruler amongst tyrants

Maybe you should stop being so closed minded, take off your rabid-fan blinders, and respect other's opinions.

If people want to hate Naruto, let him...Why does it really matter to you?

I only read one volume of Naruto, and it wasn't that good. Maybe it was because I had just finished reading Basilisk. It was like getting a plastic sword right after I've gotten a katana. My dislike towards Naruto comes mainly from its fans, widely known as "Narutards", but as I pointed out, it is the series that didn't appeal to me.

I've heard many reasons as to why not read the series, so I probably won't read it in the near future. I might read it after I read everything I'm planning to read... but don't count on it. The fans just scare me away.

-Rah

Interesting. Well 1st let me address a few things. One THANK YOU ALL. I'm a fan of Naruto, student of manga and I truly appreciate people taking time to chat about my post and about this manga. While we all disagree about a variety of points here I can honestly say it's very exciting to know that people care enough about this medium at all to support this site for one and to respond to any manga fan since in the end we are a small (albeit GROWING) community. So thanks.

Secondly, I don't apologize about the 12 yr old discourse here. For some of you it is. It's purely based on some irrational disdain of the franchise and manga and seems very much based (*which I was shocked about) on dislike of an anime adaptation. I'm really taken aback by that--since my post was on two facts which aside from 4 people was completely ignored.

The facts I asked about were regarding the 6 points and how people felt about them. Only a few even bothered to give them and while I disgree with those individuals (particularly regarding Naruto's training--seems wild to me when most of the manga produced seems to employ the power up by osmosis strategy and leaves the training and actual logic of experience out the window) I respect ther views. Second was that this is about the manga. Who cares about the anime Berserk is a masterpiece of fiction and the anime is good but lord knows it holds not one candle to the original work. So why even waste time diverting the discussion to that?

Again, to someone who wants to have healthy discourse it's kind of disheartening that a legitimate question gets ignored and yet people jump in to discuss it anyways with generic answers. But, this brings me to another point... I do respect the opinions. This post is not about not respecting opinions it's about asking to get a strong, articulate view of one. There is not a right or wrong one and those posters who want to project my post as such have a different objective than I do. I want to hear the negative critics of Naruto but yes I do ask and expect honest, well thought out discourse. If you want a schoolyard Batman is stronger than Superman discussion then again,,,my comment about 12 yr olds is legitimate.

Lastly, I'm not sure why the sysadmin said this would get out of hand. I think that was alittle overboard...dude, relax..it's a discussion. I'm not interested in causing a fight. But I'm not going to back down to a silly comment for the sake of being a forum troll either. I made this post to elevate the conversation. People who want me to agree with a post that says Naruto sucks is delusional and is exactly the person trying to silence the debate. To me, it's not asking the questions and not holding people to a higher level of discourse that ended up causing this country to elect G.W.'s silly ass and now look where we are. I would hope my posts (and this does go to the person who said " oh this guy again.." as though I've offended u...do I even know u..or are you a Naruto basher troll who hates people who actually enjoy the work and can list why?) cause some of you (not the majority..again..proven by my knowledge of Shueisha and Viz's international documentation regarding the success of Naruto pursuant to One Piece --- in short..hate to break it to many of you but Naruto is the top manga in the world) may actually BENEFIT from thinking about what u look for in manga, what about Naruto affects you so strongly (positive or negative) and what that means for your enjoyment of other manga.

Finally, I do not hate on Bleach and Dragonball aimlessly. I think Bleach has a lot of cool X-men type elements but... the simple fact of the matter is that Bleach is a manga that lacks any real depth and is 100% more action and what I find amazing is how the same people who criticize Naruto for not being deep seem to like Bleach. No matter how much one has an opinion the sheer scale of that foolish argument would be like comparing the depth of Goodburger to Schindler's List,,.,,because some of you liked it and laughed and schindler's list just didn't have it. My belief is that age and actual reading of the manga's in question plus many more may shape your opinions better and more importantly may force you to actually be able to offer a more rounded discussion regarding what you like and don't like and why. Hope that helps. Not just you but helps new and burgeoning Manga fans who end up on this site and on this post and is looking for a good validation (not a simplistic one) that supports their positive or negative view of naruto and their place in the manga life. If we can raise the debate to that level..this will have been so worth it. I'll get at amending my original post in a bit...peace.

UPDATE: Just got done reading a few threads and since I'm new to this I'll try not to respond to each person who wanted to take a cheap shot at my original post but I do have to say to all of the people who want to turn this into a personal thing with the "why do I care?" line and that "it's someone's opinion" all I have to say is seriously...Grow up. That's the sort of lameass discussion that inspired me to write this in the 1st place. This site is for fans, enthusiasts and for (wait for it cuz this is the heart of it) people who truly want to learn more about possibly their 1st manga or 1st introduction to the manga life. It's a crazy world that a fan of something -- someone generally touched by a work like Naruto (and just to put this into perspective..I'm a man in my 30's, former athlete, corporate executive in videogames and I read lots of things..not just manga and more importantly I've not, never and most certainly will never cosplay..so the idea that I'm a 'fan with blinders on' is way off target but what else is new) who just genuinely and truly likes this manga and anime (as does my girlfriend) and wants to know what others think of the themes/ plots of it good or bad. But in an intellligent--interesting discussion. When I see a post that says Naruto sucks == instead of asking why do I and millions of other people care about Naruto as a work perhaps the question should be "why do you care what a fan of Naruto on a Naruto board" thinks.,.if you hate it don't come and if you have such well thought out opinions such as "anime- bad manga good" then perhaps your Hulk level intellect would be best served on 4Kids or Cartoonnetwork.com. But again, I just think it's interesting all of the negative emotions from people who are not fans and how quickly u responded to the post. I said awhile back that it seems to me more people are upset that Naruto became a success than have actually read it ,...out of some spite that their favorite cultish industry has started to go mainstream and it means they may have to go with it. I wish I could say I was too cool not to care but I'm not..this is a great work and I want to discuss it intelligently.

Last edited by Daedalus at 12:23 am, Feb 26 2007

way to go you are much better with words than I am and btw I agree with most of what you say -not the bleach thingy- but I will give you a piece of advise -since it happens a lot to me- you see I noticed that I get sidetracked and that most of the time my posts are long which tends to leave replies from people that I realize either didn't read it or I just couldn't deliver my thoughts with my poor engrish... and I wonder how many will read your post completely!?

^_^ a friendly comment with no evil intentions \(>_<)/ banzai

Okay here's my 2cents worth

Saying "Naruto is a masterpiece" is like saying "X-men is a masterpiece"

Some will agree while some won't

I'm glad that This series is continuing, But a "Masterpiece"??

In "my opinion" it's a good work of storytelling no doubt about that

seeing as it's second best seller (manga) worldwide

But, and it's a big but, some people did not like how the manga was butchered in the english anime dubs ie. "Believe it!"

while Naruto may have found a place in your (and many millions of others) shelves including mine

Terming it a "masterpiece" is too opinionated

since it's;
1. Nothing compared to other Great works of literature ie. Tolkien's "Ring" series
2. It's a manga (they're not works of art, they're just Fun to read)
3. If you want masterpieces visit your local art museum or google them on the web


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I wasn't planning on giving my opinion, but seeing so much discussion on this thread made me interested.

First of all, to the OP, there is a good reason why many people are bringing up the anime. Because I think most of the "haters" actually like the original manga, they just dislike the anime (especially the fillers) and the english adaptions.

Second of all, I believe that the points of Naruto being too weak and not enough character development to be true. Others have already said why they think so and I won't bother to repeat it.

As for how I personally view the manga, I don't believe it can be rated as a masterpiece. It is a good read, but it isn't the best that I've seen. I don't particularly care for the art, but that's not the main point. Mainly, I just lost interest in the story. I don't actually like Naruto as a character that much, my favorite is Shikimaru. But he's not a major character and when Sasuke became totally emo I lost most of the interest in the manga. I might start reading it again, but probably not.

since this is probly the most going thread at the moment, ill give my two cents worth

~i like naruto, espcially from the beginning to up to when sasuke did his emo leave

~the english translation and parts of the anime sort of bogged down what reputation the series got

~basically frustratedguy summed it up, its def from my pov a good manga with nice characters but thats an opinion

masterpieces are things like shakespeares plays which are thought of as classics for many generations after thier initial release

Here is a tip to the OP. When you want to ask why people fanboys/girls blindly hate Naruto, don't moan about it and then criticise another series (Bleach) whilst doing so. Just because you don't like Bleach as much doesn't mean someone else won't.

As the saying goes, one man's dream is another man's nightmare. Don't expect anyone to like what you like. To be honest I've never watched or read Naruto, and due to the fangirl nature of the series (i.e. its just too popular and I hate getting into things that have so many fangirls running around talking about it) I had no intention of doing so. But I figured I may as well give it a try someday.

As for the meaning of this topic, its just another one of the things that is sooo wrong about the animanga community and yet another reason I refuse to fully immerse myself in it. There is way too much obsessive fan/anti-fan stuff in the animanga community, as the OP says its 12 year old stuff. I think the best way to eliminate it is to not give these people time in your day. Acknowledging their vomit inducing behaviour will only encourage it.

Like daed I'm just throwing in my two cents since this was at the top of the recent posts lists, I liked/disliked Naruto for personal reasons. There Also Daedalus, for your update...I think you should have broke it into at least a couple of paragraphs, it kind of made my eyes hurt reading that one. Sorry, bad eyesight Haha, I just noticed that daed and Daedalus both have daed in their names... Okay..end post.

Edit! Oh, BtW...I believe it was your topic which helped attract flamage (<- is that a word? I like it...)

Naruto a masterpiece? Depends on your definition:

So, by the third definition: is Naruto excellent among shonen? No, I still don't think so, I think there are many, many better shonen.

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