Quote from zarlan

You didn't merely state how things are, but clearly defended it, and essentially stated that it is (relatively) good.

I don't really care about the scanlation scene internals, and whichever way they swing there, just like I've said. But I can definitely compare its situation to the official manga business and defend it.

Not to mention the implicit statement, that translating a work that has a translation group, is only justifiable, if the existing group is doing a bad job.

Wat.jpg

Is pretty much IS universal. (exceptions are almost unheard of. They do technically exist, with all instances being pretty much universally condemned [except maybe if the group that was translating it, were really terrible], but...) As for not being enforced by legal threats... They might as well be, considering that no one dares to do it.

Not sure where you've got that idea from, I've seen it happen enough times over the years. It is rare indeed, simply because normally people prefer not to duplicate efforts, unless something extreme is going on.

I've no idea who hurt you in that cutthroat scanlation world, but please stop taking it out on me.

Admittedly, I've plain missed when did we start speaking about French translations, nevermind mainly about them.

"We" didn't.
As I said: Random_user147, and Random_user147 alone, did
...and it was specifically Random_user147's attitude, that you were responding to.
Did you not read this post?
...which is a comment that you replied to, but apparently didn't read, prior to replying to it, which is an extremely rude, disrespectful, and unacceptable thing to do!
Never reply to anything, unless/before you actually bother to read it!
(if I had a penny, for everytime someone's done that to me, I'd be filthy rich...)

Not sure what were you trying to link there, but out of the post where French was mentioned, I read and replied to the parts that were addressed to me, oddly enough. And in any case, I'm not sure how it affects the approach to translation issues, which is what we were arguing about, rather than any specific French, or English, or Swahili examples.

My smile is stuck - I cannot go back to your frownland.

Quote from ghostosaka

Wat.jpg

You said:
"Competing groups do exist, and when other group decides that some other's translation is inadequate, they usually translate from the start (or from the place where good translators stopped), not snipe the lastest chapter, in any case."
Talking about it, as if the only instance where a group may want to translate something that is being translated, is if they "decides that some other's translation is inadequate".
Q.E.D.

Not sure where you've got that idea from, I've seen it happen enough times over the years. It is rare indeed

So you think it's weird that I say that it's extremely rare ...and then you proceed say that it is rare?

I've no idea who hurt you in that cutthroat scanlation world, but please stop taking it out on me.

You are making a pointless and baseless assumption, and suggesting that one could only have such an opinion, if the result of a personal grievance?
I see the fact that anyone who translated something, that already has a group translating it, gets zealous and near universal condemnation and ostracization, and call it out as foolish, stupid, irrational, inexplicable, and unhealthy, as well as lament the fact that this results in not having as much diversity of translation
...and you have a hard time understanding, why I care about it?
Really?

Not sure what were you trying to link there

Yeah, because it's not like you could just click the link...

but out of the post where French was mentioned, I read and replied to the parts that were addressed to me, oddly enough.

That is 100% disingenuous.
Whether it was addressed to you, or not, is irrelevant, as it is what you replied to!
You condemned Random_user147, for saying that a lot of the official translations he/she/whatever encounters are decent ...despite the fact that you don't have a clue about the quality of the French translations, that are what he's saying is decent a lot of the time (and are thus unable to judge the validity of that opinion, as they may well be excellent, for all you know), and thus have no right to speak on the matter much less condemn.

And in any case, I'm not sure how it affects the approach to translation issues

...
We both know, that that isn't what we were talking about, in regards to French.
You really should know better, than to shame and embarrass yourself, with such preposterous dishonesty.

You have no defence or justification for this. A quick and simply apology, for missing the "French"-bit, and acknowledging you were wrong, would have just made you look a bit momentarily clumsy.
All this obvious nonsense BS, however...

Sigh

Having learned and forgotten Spanish, Russian, and German over the last 45 years, I know EXACTLY how difficult it is to translate for meaning, coherence, and beauty.

I have read absolute trash MTLs and FanTLs over the last 5 years, and officially licensed TLs over the last 12 years.

I have also read serviceable to excellent TLs of the above during this same timeframe.

I am in awe of people who are able to read, understand, translate, and make beautiful works in other languages.

I was never able to do so.

And I tell you now, I have been able to create an account on JJWXC.NET and purchase chapters with PayPal since October 2022.

I have read the original works on this website that have been abandoned by FanTL groups, and stories that have never been picked up by ANY TL group.

Because I have to KNOW how it all turns out!

And it has gone from gibberish to barely coherent to serviceable to entertaining to beautiful (depending on the subject matter and the slang/idioms.)

I have laughed out loud and have wept at some passages, screenshotting them for my collection of words too beautiful to forget.

And I was able to do this all with the in-browser translate function (Google Translate in Safari) live, advancing and automatically translating each chapter as I read. (Would THAT be considered MTL?)

AI? Ability to recognize and translate text IN images on the fly?

Like I said, coming sooner than you think.

"No matter where you go, there you are."
Buckaroo Banzai

So you don't even have that "excuse", making your statement/belief/opinion all the more foolish.

I’m done.

You’ve shown me exactly who you are and what you believe.

You don’t want to discuss or debate with others.

You want to pummel others with your “righteous” opinions until they are mangled and silent.

There is no pleasure is engaging with a zealot filled with vitriol and contempt.

I wonder… What else have you done to others online and in real life who had the audacity to disagree with you?

I hope someday you find the grace to realize you are not always right, and others are not always wrong.

And two or more things can be true at the same time.

Professional & amateur translators AI slop & AI improving

Your rebuttals keep descending to personal attacks.

All this hate must be exhausting.

"No matter where you go, there you are."
Buckaroo Banzai

Yeah, at this point you're just twisting anything I say into whatever goes to affirm your obsessions, and since there's no further need to me in this process, I'd rather take my leave.

Still not sure who hurt you, but seeking professional kelp, rather than forum self-affirmation, is advised.

My smile is stuck - I cannot go back to your frownland.

Okay, at first I was planning to write detailed replies but I see that things advanced in the mean time and I didn't mean to get into a long discussion when I first posted here. So I'll give a more general reply and bow out.

My positions are:

I don't put fan translations in general on a pedestal as much as I appreciate them and I approach official translations as in "good until proven otherwise" way. If available, official gets priority because it's the legal way with the advantages that comes with being legal.

The audience for an official translation doesn't need to be manga nerds or "weebs" only. There's nothing wrong with aiming for a wider audience. People shouldn't be required to immerse in the manga culture to enjoy one.

I tried directly searching the opinion of translators against keeping the honorifics. I saw some being confident on their approach of translating honorifics, but they weren't dismissive of the nuances. They just believed that they were better transmitted by reworking the entire sentence than leaving the honorific and writing a complex note explaining it. So they are more comfortable than I imagined, but not disrespectful to the language. I was... half-wrong I guess?

My standard for decent is written in good (insert language), coherent and transmits the message. A translation that is closer to how it would be if it were originally written in the target language isn't unacceptable. It just isn't my preferred style. (I'm not talking about the donuts-onigiri here, I'm talking about prioritizing equivalent impact/experience over literal translations.)

Bad official translations exist and we shouldn't support them. But I won't blindly trust an accusation because I've disagreed with them before. I think internet has a tendency to exaggerate, but I admit things might be worse than I imagine.

I prefer to tolerate lackluster translations than have an all or nothing approach. That means I tolerate when my complaints are mostly about small losses of nuance and style or when there's a flaw, but not many nor an egregious one.

As for what I said about unofficial translators being rewarded:

• there are groups sharing their translations on their own site full of ads, paid advanced chapters and tipping links (the reason why I wrote unofficial instead of fan translations)
• and non-monetary rewards such as engagement and clout. Sounds a bit stupid, but they're rewards to some people. I've seen dropped series and demotivated groups because of lack of engagement, drama often happens because one or more parts involved have some clout in the community, etc.

And for the value I attribute to the translation industry:

• it might be old-fashioned, but I give a lot of importance to printed books. Print on demand might be a thing, but I prefer just having the official books. And I also want manga to have the reach legality can provide it. Libraries, regular local bookstores, people that don't touch piracy for whatever reason... Even better if more markets grow so people that know multiple languages can have more options and fans can compare translations.

It's nice to encourage buying the original, specially in cases of truly bad translations, but I wonder how many people are willingly to buy as many chapters/volumes in a language they can't read as they would in a language they can and is available in their stores.

I guess that's it. Thanks you all for the opinions, specially towards my last question. Let's agree on what we agree and agree to disagree on the rest.

Quote from Random_user147

The audience for an official translation doesn't need to be manga nerds or "weebs" only. There's nothing wrong with aiming for a wider audience. People shouldn't be required to immerse in the manga culture to enjoy one.

True, I was being hyperbolic there. Although I also do believe that a great deal of even what's being officially published in English would be considered "repulsive (insert the localised otaku slur) crap" by that very wider audience - just like it's often considered in Japan. Just something to consider, before aiming to compete with Harry or Spoody across your line-up.

That aside, the problem with this catch-all approach is that it works against the core audience. And the beginners would either lose interest soon, or become people with at least some active interest in this type of media, and at least some willingness to learn. But the translations won't grow up to accomodate them. The inevitable question is, will dumbed down translations affect the chances of that first-time reader becoming the former or the latter?

First, I think that the hurdle of honorifics is greatly exaggerated. You by no means can't begin to enjoy such a translation even without first reading just a short note on honorifics usage (and the basics of the handful of honorifics that are used 99.(9)% of the time can really be summed in two or three paragraphs). Hell, you can just ignore them entirely, and what you'll get won't be much different from a typical honorific-less translation.

Second, any media that deals with foreign themes does inevitably require you to accomodate for it and learn things, honorifics or not. Reading a fantasy series, nevermind serious science fiction, or even simply a series set in a foreign country, all require you to internalize a lot of things. Some of which - unlike honorifics - won't even be relevant outside of that particular work.

To sum up my position, honorifics, even when kept, don't present some terrifying gatekeeper, but rather just one among the many hurdles that reading varied media represents. And omitting them, in the end, works against everyone but the most casual audience.

I tried directly searching the opinion of translators against keeping the honorifics. I saw some being confident on their approach of translating honorifics, but they weren't dismissive of the nuances. They just believed that they were better transmitted by reworking the entire sentence than leaving the honorific and writing a complex note explaining it. So they are more comfortable than I imagined, but not disrespectful to the language. I was... half-wrong I guess?

Maybe, I was just describing my personal experience with seeing (English) translators spew the nonsense I've described. And, unfortunately, on more than a few occasions. For some reasons I'm genuinely struggling to fully comprehend, a significan portion of those translators end up with comically inflated self-esteem. We're talking about the kind of people that list their names alongside the author's (and sometimes, hopefully through mishaps, hilariously end up listed first).

And for the value I attribute to the translation industry:

• it might be old-fashioned, but I give a lot of importance to printed books. Print on demand might be a thing, but I prefer just having the official books. And I also want manga to have the reach legality can provide it. Libraries, regular local bookstores, people that don't touch piracy for whatever reason... Even better if more markets grow so people that know multiple languages can have more options and fans can compare translations.

I understand the sentiment (I personally strongly detest the reformatting that many publishers do, but that's just me), but the ability of the industry - and people like you - to rely on this will only continue to dwindle as even the libraries only grow more digitised by the day.

It's nice to encourage buying the original, specially in cases of truly bad translations, but I wonder how many people are willingly to buy as many chapters/volumes in a language they can't read as they would in a language they can and is available in their stores.

Not many, for sure, but I suspect one such volume is worth at least ten US-published ones in terms of supporting the original author.

My smile is stuck - I cannot go back to your frownland.

Quote from ghostosaka

Yeah, at this point you're just twisting anything I say into whatever goes to affirm your obsessions

Textbook projection.
You refuse to explain or defend your words, and instead smear me ...with accusations of what you (but not me) are guilty of.
'nuff said.

Quote from Random_user147

I approach official translations as in "good until proven otherwise" way.

...except that they clearly have worse incentives and motivations, as has been thoroughly explained, meaning that you have no reason to have that approach, and every reason to have the opposite one.

As I say, this has been thoroughly gone through, here, and you have not presented even the slightest shred or a hint, for why this wouldn't be the case, or any other reason/justification for your approach.

The audience for an official translation doesn't need to be manga nerds or "weebs" only.

For almost all manga, that IS the audience.

I saw some being confident on their approach of translating honorifics, but they weren't dismissive of the nuances.

Just because it's what you found, doesn't mean that it's representative, or that it's all there is.

My standard for decent is written in good (insert language), coherent and transmits the message.

That is far too low a standard!
For example:
Crap translations, that add in unjustified slang, or just general added crap (which didn't exist in the original), whilst still conveying the same base meaning, would qualify by that standard ...even though that is utterly unacceptably bad. Basically a troll translation.

A translation that is closer to how it would be if it were originally written in the target language isn't unacceptable.

... WTF?
A translation is obviously supposed to be as close as possible to how it would be, if it were originally written in the target language!
Or more accurately:
It should (as much as possible) convey the same thing to the target audience, as the original conveys to the original audience.
The same base meaning, yes, but also the same connotations, "feel", attitude, level of casualness/formality, masculinity/femininity, roughness/softness etc etc
That's the whole point of translation!!!

The above does not, however, justify onigiri->doughnut, changing Japan to the US, or anything like that.
Not in any way, shape, or form!
...and I also include in this, the habit of flipping peoples names, to be given-family, rather than the original's family-given.
You are supposed to translate. Not change where it is set, the objects in the work, or how the characters behave. The work is from (and often set in) a different culture ...and that is part of what the work is.
Changing that, isn't translating what the original says. It is to remove what the original says. To change it into something else.

Still, you may point out, that what I've said, above, would seem to suggest that honorific should be removed, and the general language be changed to reflect the connotations/implications, in some other way
...except I've already gone through why one should keep the honorifics, anyway.
Except when the audience is not expected to have any particular interest in the language, and isn't expected to read/watch any more works from it

...and even for that kind of audience, dealing with honorifics (and even a rare few other common words), is very easy and not any kind of a problem for the reader/watcher, at all, and ghostosaka makes a good point about how Fantasy and Sci-Fi tend to have even more of the same "problem", without anyone ever complaining, or it ever being seen as a problem.
Thus making me question, if one should ever remove honorifics. If there is ever a justification, for it.
Well I suppose one should still always remove them, for kids shows.

I'm talking about prioritizing equivalent impact/experience over literal translations.)

...which is what, generally speaking, should be done. (though there may be cases, where one should make an exception)

Though, speaking of literal translations, I'd like to point out that translations where the language use, in the translated text, is all polished, correct, and sounds natural, is more able to conceal how bad the actual translation is, whereas flaws in an overly literal translation, are not only more evident, but it is also easier to figure out what it is supposed to mean.

I prefer to tolerate lackluster translations than have an all or nothing approach.

...and, a we've made very thoroughly, clear we're not saying a translation is unacceptable, merely because it is lacklustre. We're talking about constant and frequent egregious (and most often intentional) errors.

As for what I said about unofficial translators being rewarded:

• there are groups sharing their translations on their own site full of ads, paid advanced chapters and tipping links (the reason why I wrote unofficial instead of fan translations)

Scanlators who ask/accept money, are a very recent phenomena, and are still far from the norm!
They are also utterly unacceptable and despicable scum.

As for ads on their site... I generally assume that's to maintain the server space ...and you hardly support them, if you never click on the ads.
(and who's foolish enough, to clicks on ads? Also, as far as I'm concerned, anyone who doesn't use an ad-blocker, is either too ignorant or bad at computers to do so ...or just an utter fool)

• and non-monetary rewards such as engagement and clout.

...
Sure, they get rewarded with that, but how is that a problem?
If they do shit translations (though people don't always make a proper judgement, about that), they tend to not be rewarded for it, so...
(on the other hand, that is also how "sniping" is punished...)

• it might be old-fashioned, but I give a lot of importance to printed books. Print on demand might be a thing, but I prefer just having the official books.

So do I!
...but a official printed book, with an atrocious excuse for a "translation", which is a corruption and defilement of, and insult towards, the original, is LESS than worthless!
It has great negative value!
It is FAR better, that no official translation exist, than that one like that exists.
(also, as long as it doesn't exist, there is a hope of someone making a good official translation ...but the moment a bad official translation is made, all hopes of a good one are crushed forever!)

Even better if more markets grow

Not if the products on that market, are utter trash!

but I wonder how many people are willingly to buy as many chapters/volumes in a language they can't read

If people like a product, they tend to be willing to pay for it ...and they can read the fan translations, so their physical copies being unreadable, shouldn't be an issue.

P.S. I've encountered honorifics, in the very rare case, where I've read a Manhwa, and one or two Thai comics. I don't know either language, and have zero interest in learning them (I like to learn more languages, sure, but those are nowhere near the top of my list. Nowhere near the bottom, either)
I didn't find that to be a problem.

Both? I typically read fan translations in English as they come out, and when the volumes are published in my country I purchase and re-read them. In my experience quality isn't an issue, in four decades they've had time to sort it out.

Quote from zarlan

@LazyReviewer
Sounds kinda similar, to how some translators wanted you to show you have a copy of the original, to get their translation.

Oh, that's interesting.

I'm still waiting for an answer, as to how people are, in practice, rewarding bad fan translations, BTW.

I'm just gonna assume this was meant for someone else, as I didn't mention anything about rewarding bad translators.

I'm a jack of all trades but master of none. Too many jars and not enough hands.