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Is it just me, or has Batoto decided not to let people be able to read the manga on their site?

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Post #673712 - Reply to (#673706) by zarlan
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6:38 pm, Nov 15 2015
Posts: 402


1. In case you didn't know, Batoto is a non-profit site. It is Grumpy's task to figure out how much he needs to maintain the site. You obviously lack sufficient information to second guess his decision. Grumply may be wrong in his estimates, but at least you have to grant that he has better information, and thus better understanding, than you do.
2. I'm not noticing any drop in the number of visitors who matter. If you don't go there, it doesn't matter, for reasons I already described. Incidentally, if you want to reduce this to revenue, maybe you could tell us how many times you've clicked on ads on Batoto and actually bought something? I'm going to guess that you've generated exactly nothing in revenue, and only cost bandwidth.
3. Whether the duration of the announcement on the front page was sufficient or not is your subjective opinion. As you can see, everyone else here got the message. I understand that you are more important to you than anyone else, but surely you realize that others do not perceive you in the same way. And well, you can't keep everyone satisfied. You'll be the outlier.
4. Somehow, I fail to take your opinion of my qualifications seriously. Although, your failure to produce any logical link between my statement and your claim makes me suspect you were saying that just for the sake of being contrary.

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Post #673720 - Reply to (#673712) by cmertb
Member

7:39 pm, Nov 15 2015
Posts: 383


Quote from cmertb
1. In case you didn't know, Batoto is a non-profit site.

...which clearly admit, they get money from ads.
Having a server, with a bunch of manga online, for others to read, isn't free, you know?
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You obviously lack sufficient information to second guess his decision.

Oh really?
You say this, based on...?
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Grumply may be wrong in his estimates, but at least you have to grant that he has better information

Certainly.
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and thus better understanding, than you do.

No.
Better information, does not equal a better understanding.
That simply does not follow.

Better information makes it easier (or, in some cases, is necessary) to gain a better understanding, but it doesn't automatically result in it.
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2. I'm not noticing any drop in the number of visitors who matter.

Oh?
And how do you measure that? How do you determine who matters?
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Incidentally, if you want to reduce this to revenue, maybe you could tell us how many times you've clicked on ads on Batoto and actually bought something?

Whether I, personally, do or don't, doesn't have any bearing on any of the arguments here.
None of what has been said here, has any relevance to specifically my use, or lack of use, of the site, at all.
That is a completely irrelevant Red Herring and a fallacious Ad Hominem attack.
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3. Whether the duration of the announcement on the front page was sufficient or not is your subjective opinion.

I never mentioned the duration.
The fact that it was only in the forum (that barely anyone reads) and the front page (that barely anyone ever visits), is the problem.
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As you can see, everyone else here got the message.

"everyone else here" is not even close to being a representative sample of batoto visitors ...or even of MU visitors.
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I understand that you are more important to you than anyone else, but surely you realize that others do not perceive you in the same way.

I have not talked about this, in general terms.
Not as a thing that affects me, specifically.
What you are saying here, is nothing other than you being needlessly rude and insulting, for no reason.
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4. Somehow, I fail to take your opinion of my qualifications seriously. Although, your failure to produce any logical link between my statement and your claim makes me suspect you were saying that just for the sake of being contrary.

My failure to express myself, in a way that you are able to understand, makes you assume that I didn't produce a logical link?
It makes you assume that I am just trolling?
Not that I was unclear, or that you failed to understand what I said (or a mix of both)?
You assume malice, straight away, without considering misunderstanding (from either, or both, parties), ignorance or stupidity? (which one should consider before malice ...and in that order)

I did mention that what you call leechers, are the people who make paying for batoto's upkeep possible.
The fact that you failed to think that far, that you failed to understand such a basic fact, was what prompted me to consider you unqualified (it reveals a shallowness of thought, that simply cannot result in anything of value).

I though that should have gone without saying.
Clearly I was wrong.

Last edited by zarlan at 7:45 pm, Nov 15 2015

Member

7:59 pm, Nov 15 2015
Posts: 5


i didn't wanna register so i just use other sites like mangafox or whatever, there's plenty of sites out there where you don't need to register. time to move on, no point in complaining.

Post #673723 - Reply to (#673721) by moarmanga
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8:26 pm, Nov 15 2015
Posts: 383


Quote from moarmanga
no point in complaining.

I disagree.
Besides, it's pointing out the lack of sense, that it makes, more than it really is complaining (not that it isn't complaining, mind you).

Also, while there are other sites, they generally only provide one version of any chapter ...and that will be the first one to be uploaded ...which, in some cases, is crap.
For a few manga, where the specific scanlating group matters, batoto was a great option (especially in the cases where it's utterly unclear how to get the releases, from the group itself).

Last edited by zarlan at 8:34 pm, Nov 15 2015

Post #673725 - Reply to (#673720) by zarlan
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8:41 pm, Nov 15 2015
Posts: 402


I suppose your basic problem is that you consider your quite banal arguments as something of utmost importance and then you think people fail to understand you when they disregard them. In reality, your arguments are disregarded simply because everyone has heard them many times before. Yes, yes, we all know that Batoto relies on ad revenue to run itself. What you also fail to take into account that Batoto's cost are based on bandwidth consumed. Only Grumpy has sufficient info to make a determination where the tradeoff makes sense. And since Batoto is non-profit, it only needs to cover the cost, not generate any revenue. Yes, we know there are ways to bypass any barriers Grumpy may put up. Yes, we know some leechers might leave. All the arguments you've made here have already been made in the original discussion on Batoto, and Grumpy is aware of them. You can claim all you want that Grumpy's understanding of the situation is inferior to yours, but let's look at this logically: based on my conversations with you and Grumpy, I know that he is at least not dumber than you, and since even you admit that he has more info, the obvious conclusion is that his understanding should be superior to yours. So just drop this pointless argument already.

I do encourage you to read all of Grumpy's replies in the relevant threads on the Batoto forum.

I also applaud your attempt to finally tie your claim about my qualifications and my statement with a logical link, but that also falls flat. For starters, a response of "you are not qualified" to any statement on any topic is certainly lacking any logical connection. That is a fact, not a matter of misunderstanding. And I honestly don't care to discuss what your motivation for that omission was.

Now, to clarify some misunderstandings: When I said "community", I meant scanlation community, of which Batoto is only a part, and not a critical one. Other online readers aren't a part of it at all, they're just useless appendages. The function of creating content far outweighs the function of hosting it. Anyone contributing to Batoto revenue does not necessarily, in my eyes, contribute to the community. To me, people commenting on manga contribute to the community, while people providing revenue to online readers contribute to online readers, not the community.
Due to the above, I believe that silent leechers are useless. Again, as far as I'm concerned, based on my own understanding of what is important to the community I am a part of. And if you care to argue about that, please be aware that I will take your claims seriously only if you are also a member of the scanlation community. Speaking of being qualified, hehe.

I also don't care to go into the argument about what a representative sample is, but to me, it is undeniable reality that you are the only person to ever complain that you weren't sufficiently notified of changes on Batoto. So you must understand where I'm coming from when I dismiss your complaints on the topic.

Finally, I already told you who doesn't matter to me (silent leechers). From that, you could easily derive who matters to me (non-leechers or non-silent readers). You will have to trust my subjective opinion when I say that I did not notice any decrease of those on Batoto. In fact, I feel that their number has increased lately.


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Post #673727 - Reply to (#673723) by zarlan
Member

9:21 pm, Nov 15 2015
Posts: 5


the only way to effectively complain is to register for an account and make a post and if you do that then there isn't much point in complaining because the change won't really affect you anymore. the site doesn't want visits from you or i, otherwise they would have done something like make a poll so the best way to complain is to stop visiting the site.

the one thing i can say though is if you care about getting better or specific releases for a manga then either do your research for alternative sites or just stick to batch torrents which usually pick the "best" release to include.

Post #673730 - Reply to (#673707) by zarlan
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10:55 pm, Nov 15 2015
Posts: 10290


Quote from zarlan
It seems I was given a warning for making a double post (WTF? When? Where?)
As I see no point in responding to a bot (it's not like I'd get a response), I will respond here, due to a lack of a better alternative:
Where/how/when have I made a double post?
What the heck do you mean? What are you talki ...

This post itself is a double post. You made 2+ posts in a row in the same thread

And it is in the rules:
http://www.mangaupdates.com/showtopic.php?tid=4
It's actually been one of the original rules of the forum when we originally created it 10 years ago. The rule itself has never been modified since

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Post #673731 - Reply to (#673725) by cmertb
Member

11:53 pm, Nov 15 2015
Posts: 383


Quote from cmertb
I suppose your basic problem is that you consider your quite banal arguments/.../

It's so nice that people here are so nice and respectful...
Can some mod, please give out a warning or two?

Surely someone repeatedly insulting and demeaning someone, unprovoked and without basis, violates the forum rules?
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and then you think people fail to understand you when they disregard them.

No.
I think people fail to understand my arguments, when they fail to properly address them.
As you have.
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What you also fail to take into account that Batoto's cost are based on bandwidth consumed.

No I don't.
Why would you assume that I fail to understand that?
You say I think people fail to understand me when they disregard me ...yet you assume that I don't understand, when there is no indication that I don't.

Ad revenue will, however, be a proportion of the bandwidth consumed, so...
Also, the people visiting, who are from scanlation groups, or who are running the site, won't really be producing revenue. What you want, is a greater amount of readers (the people, a proportion of whom, create revenue).

The greater the proportion of visitors, that are readers, especially the ones who don't waste bandwith, with comments and forum posts, the better.
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Only Grumpy has sufficient info to make a determination where the tradeoff makes sense.

You keep saying that.
You keep insisting that knowing the the server stats, and that alone, makes you best able to make the best judgements.
...but you provide not logical argument, or evidence.
You just repeat the assertion.
[url=[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_nauseam]]Just repeating a claim over and over[/url], doesn't make it more true.
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And since Batoto is non-profit, it only needs to cover the cost, not generate any revenue.

...and how does that make calling casual readers "leechers", any more accurate, exactly?
I have never talked about how batoto needs to make a profit.
I have merely pointed out your, quite needlessly and baselessness, disrespectful language, towards the people who read manga, on batoto.
The very people, that are the purpose of batoto's existence, I might add.
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Yes, we know there are ways to bypass any barriers Grumpy may put up.

Those are no barriers, at all. Not to aggregate sites.
They are only barriers to the readers.
How does that benefit anyone?
How does that achieve the purpose of the change?
You still have not explained this.
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Yes, we know some leechers might leave. All the arguments you've made here have already been made in the original discussion on Batoto, and Grumpy is aware of them.

Well then, it should be all the more easy for you, to explain why I'm wrong, then.
So why haven't you?
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You can claim all you want that Grumpy's understanding of the situation is inferior to yours

I am arguing against a policy.
Not against Grumpy.
You are making an Argument from Authority, for Grumpy and an Argumentum Ad Hominem, against me.
You don't bother to counter my arguments or argue for Grumpy's, but instead try to attack me, as a person, and defend Grumpy, as a person.
That's completely missing the point.

I am saying that the policy is flawed, as far as I can understand.
I'm saying that it doesn't seem to make sense, and only seems to be detrimental.
If you disagree, then show me where my arguments are wrong.
Make counterarguments.
Show me contrary evidence.

Don't insist on trying to make it personal.
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but let's look at this logically:

You commit logical fallacy after logical fallacy, and refuse to acknowledge (or refute) that fact.
You're not exactly in a position to be convincing, when saying "let's look at this logically".
Still, if what you say is valid, then it's valid (except it isn't, as I explain below)
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based on my conversations with you and Grumpy, I know that he is at least not dumber than you

Is that supposed to be logical? Or evidence? Or, in any way, convincing?
How so?
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and since even you admit that he has more info, the obvious conclusion is that his understanding should be superior to yours.

...
Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that Grumpy is, indeed, smarter than me (why I should believe he is, or isn't, or why it should matter, I do not know).

In that case, we could say that:
Premiss 1: He has more information about the statistics, for the batoto server(s) than me.
Premiss 2: He is smarter than me.
Does it follow from the premisses, that we can conclude that he has a better understanding of the situation, than me?
No.
If you think that the pure server stats, is all that matters...
Also, making good judgements isn't all about being smart. There is also knowledge (of various kinds) and skills (of various kinds) ...not to mention that there is more information, than just the server stats.
Also, information, in and of itself, is worthless. It's all about if, and how well, you can understand and use the information.

If you don't answer with a bit more depth, I don't know that it's worth the effort to try to explain
...and given that you just insult and demean, I feel like I might just be encouraging nastiness, by replying to you.
...
Well I'll give you this one last chance:
Please make a proper reply, with at least some minimum level of respect, more than a superficial consideration, of what I have said ...and an attempt at avoiding fallacies.
If not, then I will not reply, as that would only serve to further deteriorate this thread.

Post #673732 - Reply to (#673730) by lambchopsil
Member

12:03 am, Nov 16 2015
Posts: 383


Quote from lambchopsil
This post itself is a double post. You made 2+ posts in a row in the same thread

That's not what a double post is.
To quote Wikipedia (with added emphasis, from me):
"Double posting
One common faux pas on Internet forums is to post the same message twice. Users sometimes post versions of a message that are only slightly different, especially in forums where they are not allowed to edit their earlier posts. Multiple posting instead of editing prior posts can artificially inflate a user's post count. Multiple posting can be unintentional; a user's browser might display an error message even though the post has been transmitted or a user of a slow forum might become impatient and repeatedly hit the submit button. Multiple posting can also be used as a method of trolling or spreading forum spam. A user may also send the same post to several forums, which is termed crossposting. The term derives from Usenet, where crossposting was an accepted practice but causes problems in web forums, which lack the ability to link such posts so replies in one forum are not visible to people reading the post in other forums."

http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_forum#Double_posting

That is what double posting means, what it has always meant, and what it is generally agreed to mean.
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And it is in the rules:

Nowhere in the rules, is it specified that you aren't allowed to post 2+ comments, in a row.
It says that double posts aren't allowed, but that has nothing to do with making 2+ comments, that are completely different to each other, in a row.

I would also like to add, that I usually like to bunch my replies, all in one post, on forums
...but not on the MU forums, as the way it's set up, encourage me not to.
A post that is a reply, is marked as a reply to the post it is a reply to
...but only the one post, that it is a reply to.
Hence, I have every reason to reply with separate comments.
You encourage me to do so.

Besides, it's not like having them as multiple posts, causes them to take up that much more space.
If you disagree, and don't want it to be allowed on the MU forum, then may I suggest that you maybe make it a forum rule?

In the mean time, I'd like that warning to be revoked (if applicable), and an admission that I was wrongly accused of a breach of the rules.

Last edited by zarlan at 12:20 am, Nov 16 2015

Post #673733 - Reply to (#673727) by moarmanga
Member

12:15 am, Nov 16 2015
Posts: 383


Quote from moarmanga
the only way to effectively complain is to register for an account and make a post and if you do that then there isn't much point in complaining because the change won't really affect you anymore.

You're telling me, that it's pointless for me to complain?
How pointless does that make your comment, telling me that, in that case?

Also, why is so wrong, to point out that something doesn't seem to make sense?
Especially as, occasionally, people might provide a solution, or show why it actually does make sense?
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the one thing i can say though is if you care about getting better or specific releases for a manga then either do your research for alternative sites or just stick to batch torrents which usually pick the "best" release to include.

The only reasons I have for visiting aggregate sites is:
1. Convenience (in which case, batch torrents is out of the question ...and other sites are most often fine, but... Well I've covered this)
2. The damn scanlation group doesn't seem to have a way to download from them (in which case batch torrents might be good ...in a couple of years, when they finally get around to making one. Even then, they aren't guaranteed to chose the group I want)

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12:37 am, Nov 16 2015
Posts: 91


I'd like to say just one thing. Er... maybe it counts as two.

I'm not a "leecher" I have an acc and have translated stuff before, on Batoto. Unless I'm misinterpreting the concept of leeching, which I personally think is fine... Can't ask each and everyone to contribute after all. Everything is voluntary.

I do not like a forced registration system.

Just pointing out. Not gonna join the argument. Hopefully.

Post #673736 - Reply to (#673735) by reanseih
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12:41 am, Nov 16 2015
Posts: 79


Quote from reanseih
Can't ask each and everyone to contribute after all. Everything is voluntary.

I do not like a forced registration system.

Just pointing out. Not gonna join the argument. Hopefully.

Cannot blame you there, turned into a argument between two people instead of discussion, granted the thread itself started with a terrible title and opening post.

Post #673739 - Reply to (#673735) by reanseih
Member

1:31 am, Nov 16 2015
Posts: 354


I don't see why making an account is a difficulty for a reader especially since Batoto isn't a for profit site and respects the wishes of scanlators as well as DMCA take down orders (sites like mangafox just geoblock). It seeks to provide a space as fair enough and within the means that the illegal piracy of manga can "allow". It is quite amusing that some also are finding ways to maneuver around the change as though Batoto is some imposing system that is taking away the freedom of individuals to access something that technically (not really technically) isn't a legal practice anyway.

If one simply wants to leech and finds it so difficult to register for an account to read (to the point of having one's arm pulled), there are plenty of for profit aggregate sites out there. Among which hundreds of thousands of visitors come and go in order to read while remaining ignorant of the fact that hard work goes into these readily available/served on a platter translated mangas by scanlators. Many of these visitors believe that it is the hosted site that does the work too. If one chooses to traffic such sites while not being ignorant of the scanlating world and their feelings towards sites like mangafox, I just hope they're smart enough to prevent them from profiting off of visitors. Either way, you'll avoid the "difficulties" of registration.

Quote from reanseih
I do not like a forced registration system.

Just pointing out. Not gonna join the argument. Hopefully.


Well Batoto's Grumpy doesn't like it either, the forced registration system however it is not without good reason as a counter measure against for profit and leeching aggregate sites like mangafox. I mean it's quite reasonable. Just read Grumpy's announcement on batoto addressing the matter.


Edit: I suppose there would be an issue/flaw if one is using a public computer and simply wants to read instead of having to log into their account.......Hm....

Last edited by mysstris at 1:41 am, Nov 16 2015

Post #673740
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mmm...
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3:20 am, Nov 16 2015
Posts: 292


As far as I can see the thread starter only want to become "He who defy others", even when lambchopsil mentioned that he just double posted with the specific rule of this site, he denied it with general understanding which probably not the same with what applied in this site mmm...

As for the reason it is explicitly stated by Grumpy in the thread he made, it's not your fault that you're not spotted it in time, but definitely not Grumpy's fault mmm...

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5:07 am, Nov 16 2015
Posts: 2247


This thread is about to be locked isn´t it...
My question though is why MU needs to have this specific discussion. Bato itself has a thread specifically for that and a well argued point could lead to something there.
Bato´s admins and user base won´t hear you here and you will only drown in the increasing insanity of the discussion too.

And about Bato: It´s either a (harmless) sign up or a shutdown as they said but i don´t care as i use other sites. Shrug.

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