Quote from Kaioh

You main argument in regards to this seems to be characters getting stronger for no real reason, and then beating the "bad guy" and not killing him.

You just described the fight between Naruto and Sasuke, before he fled Konoha villiage. They both "powered up", seemingly out of no where, and fought. Sasuke was the bad guy. However, unlike what you mentioned the bad guy DID win. Still, its exaclty the same thing you said.

You say as there was no reason for Sasuke letting Naruto live, but the manga did give plenty of reasons for that. So it is not the best example of poor story telling.

In the past years OP fans have been bashing Naruto, while Naruto fans don't do so against OP. Maybe they are jealous because Naruto is more famous on the Net. OP does better on the tv probably because it has a better appeal with younger audiences.

About the chapter... I'm anxious to know how Sasuke will fair against Itachi, I´ll be disappointed if Sasuke wins, that will be so boring. Sasuke needs the power of friendship to defeat Itachi. That was the theme of the manga, right?

I'm not sure how this devolved so quickly but clearly there are some negative comments already bashing naruto fans coming from people who I'm sure would claim to not be 'negative' or unintelligible.

This gets to become repetitive since I'm amazed how people who dislike Naruto so much will bash it on a Naruto board...want to argue about it..let's go at it on a generic manga board but non-fans seem hellbent on coming into Naruto forums and trashing the fans. I find it interesting to say the least.

Kaioh--I'll make it quick. I do not believe you're being mean-spirited although I do know your facts are off and you're seeming to take offense at my disagreements with non-Naruto fans while at the same time making some of the same points they do.

Naruto's Success-- I work in entertainment. It's not to brag but the bottom line is that you need to look up NPD, ICV, Nielsen and other media tracking firms before attempting to generalize Naruto's impact. It far surpasses any manga in manga sales and merchandise (movie, toys, anime ratings and so on) than any other property in US history and most reports show this to be true ot Brazil, Germany, France and other territories. This is something that I find more lame than any arguments I hear..it's the completely misinformed critic. If you don't know or doubt the research then stay quiet. But the idea that you would suggest incorrectly Naruto's impact. Kochikame is Japanese not US and even then the sheer volume of Naruto's sales in Japan with less volumes and in less years over Kochikame is actually more embarrasing of an argument for you to make. US Today you cite..well cite it correctly. They track all book sales and if you add up naruto's sales charts for each new volume (usually in top 20) and more importantly success in previous volumes in recent months (unheard of that Volumes- 1 - 7 continue to do within top 100). So bottom line is yes other manga make USA Today but none have consistently nor as much (in sheer cumulative volume) outranked Naruto. The argument you're making is almost akin to the Republican machine where they make a point and leave out the facts accompanying the data. The last part about 'do the math' doesn't make any sense to me. I do math everyday and your logic is senseless in that example. How about you do the math...check NPD, Nielsen and others and tell me how much naruto grosses last year in US as a property vs. One Piece, DBZ and Bleach and Fruits Basket (which is not even in the realm of comparison)? I'd be curious to see your understanding of how big Naruto is when you see the billions it makes versus the millions of your favorite properties.

One Piece...that's pure subjective and continues my point of unintelligible. It's a kid's argument to suggest well One Piece failed because the dub failed. naruto manga and FMA manga do very well (Naruto before anime aired and in case of FMA long after it was taken off as a regular airing on CN) despite the anime. Besides, what data do you have that suggests it did bad BECAUSE of the animem in US? One Piece is cool. I rank it highly but for me..its a kids' manga. It features Superhero poses and no-consequences for the actions. It has characters get violently hurt and never rest or have to be healed and trained and yet somehow they 'power up' at last minute for battle and no characters ever die. If you want to argue with me on One Piece well then that's a battle akin to arguing with an adult about Preacher by Garth Ennis versus X-men...one is a kid's work and another is a work of art. BOTH ARE GREAT-- but only one is a MASTERPIECE... NARUTO. Besides--that WAS AN ATTACK...IDIOTIC STATEMENT 😕 One Piece is a kid's work son-- a kid's work. Enjoy it and then graduate to Naruto.

Dragonball-- I don't need a history lesson.. I was there when Gen Fukanaga got the license from Toei. Bottom line is that DBZ was HUGE and Naruto is MUCH BIGGER. For that matter tell me why Pokemon was huge and not listed in your explanation of DBZ's background? 'Naruto has yet to see the success of DBZ?" That's a lie and you've officially jumped the shark. What success? The illegal toy sales and t-shirt sales that occured in the late 90's? or when Funimation finally got their licensing act together? You're truly lying and that saddens me. Show me numbers or stop trying to prove a point with fake issues. Kids are dying in Iraq right now because of uninformed lies young man.

One Piece ratings in Japan-- this is another unintelligible tactic. You take my words and suggest I said something I did not. I never referenced Japan..I referenced US market. It's all good I'm not sweating it...but if you want to be taken seriously..re-read my comments..check the facts on the references I gave you and then you can hang with me.

I could go on..my GF was laughing at some of the points in your last note but the bottom line is this is tedious. You got your ego bruised by being called unintelligible and yet you've lied, mislead and completely misquoted many points I made in mind. Then you have the balls to suggest that I somehow didn't make a valid argument. If anything I allowed you a chance to make mine for me.

A few other gems:

Mamsmilk (nice name) suggested that those of us who buy One Piece and Naruto are totally worthless and plain. He did it on naruto's forum board as opposed to a General discussion board. Seems pretty disgusting to me. Where's your site admin disgust at that blatant attack? You whine about being called unintelligible and then let this kid call you worthless. Do your job man.

Gjoerulv-- I totally agree!!! I've often said that naruto is the victim of it's success. If it was not as popular (like One Piece is currently) then it would still be beloved by our little nerd, cult group..but that it broke out and became a monster success and something we should ALL BE PROUD OF it has instead become the bane of ridicule by those who should champion it. What I find more interesting than anything else is that Kaioh, Mamsmilk and others who are rigid anti-fans of naruto the work or the fandom..STILL read it. They STILL go to the forums. They STILL download it and it just seems amazing that you have this argument against something and still support. Unintelligble means that you would be able to discuss it (your like or dislike) in a mature and logical format. I get so sick of these 'haters' stating that Naruto 'sucks' or 'has too many characters' or "talks to much" or "doesn't have good action scenes"--it's just some lame silly arguments.

Anyways, I made my points. I'm done arguing for naruto on this forum,. The Forum is for fans and for true critics with actual logic-- not a place to bash naruto fans and newcomers to manga who have discovered it through naruto.

Later.

Xeronia--I agree and please read my 'answer' to Kaioh. Not only is better in storytelling but bottom line is that fiscally it's MUCH BIGGER than DBZ ever was in the US.

Rezard--also AGREE!!! Sasuke letting Naruto live is in the story something the critics fail to actually recite. The story. For that matter the deaths of so many bad and GOOD characters in naruto is Novel for a Shonen Manga. Name me any characters aside from Gold Roger who've died in One Piece. Kaioh would have you all believe that the boat 'dying' in ONE PIECE was some act of good storytelling. It was neat...it was well illustrated and it had the same impact on me that watching any kids property has... "MEH"

Naruto is a success because characters evolve, die and legacies are forged and betrayed. That's called mighty good storytelling and no amount of success or hatred of that success will change that. I'll take naruto's talking, techniques and loads of characters any day to Goku, Picolo, Sanji and Zoro's miraculous power-ups.

Quote from Daedalus

Naruto is a success because characters evolve, die and legacies are forged and betrayed. That's called mighty good storytelling and no amount of success or hatred of that success will change that. I'll take naruto's talking, techniques and loads of characters any day to Goku, Picolo, Sanji and Zoro's miraculous power-ups.

You seem to be on the same level as myself with Naruto. In Naruto there actually are story elements which alters the entire setting. That is not a very common move in shonens. But, lol, unfortunately there are way too many readers who are used to these common shonen elements (like OP,Bleach) who also read Naruto. They expect certain thing to happen, 'cause it is a shonen "law", thus leading to disappointment. To me it's quite funny actually.

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Quote from gjoerulv

Quote from Daedalus

Naruto is a success because characters evolve, die and legacies are forged and betrayed. That's called mighty good storytelling and no amount of success or hatred of that success will change that. I'll take naruto's talking, techniques and loads of characters any day to Goku, Picolo, Sanji and Zoro's miraculous power-ups.

You seem to be on the same level as myself with Naruto. In Naruto there actually are story elements which alters the entire setting. That is not a very common move in shonens. But, lol, unfortunately there are way too many readers who are used to these common shonen elements (like OP,Bleach) who also read Naruto. They expect certain thing to happen, 'cause it is a shonen "law", thus leading to disappointment. To me it's quite funny actually.

This reminds me of a point that was made when we studied Tennessee Williams in lit (an American playright, Glass Menagerie, Streetcar Named Desire and many others). He always wrote that humans were complex, so that his characters were complex. There was no straight hero and heroine in his plays, just as the line between good and bad is so fuzzy in Naruto.

If you want an example, take Sasuke, Haku, and Zabuza. Why didn't Sasuke kill Naruto? At the point in the story when Sasuke was the "villain" he was also voted the most favorite character by fans. And for Haku and Zabuza, you can't help but pity them. Even Kakashi when he was younger, the way he acted, was not like a hero. You pity them, and love how they are so clichely put, "shades of gray". Because humans are imperfect and not straight, they are lovable. That fact alone makes Naruto more mature, if you well, and less childish than many shonens, even Bleach, the manga that some I've heard read instead of Naruto because Naruto is too childish. (Yes, I've read both, I know what I'm talking about.)

If you disagree, go ahead. You're entitled to your own opinion, and if you can back up your facts, by all means, flame my opinion all you want.

don't know if it was stated yet(I haven't read all of the LOOONG posts)but maybe we finaly get to know if Sasuke has the Mangekyou Sharingan?If so then after some fighting Itachi could run away,since it's obvious he has some reason or use for Sasuke(and I don't nessesary mean the Uchiha Theory)

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Seriously, are you guys saying that OP doesn't have a good story? Have you even read it? There is so much about the people in the One Piece world that we don't know and it is far more complex than Naruto.

Naruto is the best weekly manga right now. Bleach is garbage, One Piece hasa very weak value chapter by chapter.

And the manga called "ID" is the one i enjoy the more every week. Thanks to KMTS.

Finally, we'll have some dialogue between Sasuke and Itachi.

Quote from D

Seriously, are you guys saying that OP doesn't have a good story? Have you even read it? There is so much about the people in the One Piece world that we don't know and it is far more complex than Naruto.

Again D, you're not reading people's words and you're making pure assumptions. No one said One Piece didn't have a good story. I like One Piece alot actually. I don't think it compares favorably to Naruto on any level though. One PIece is not serious. It's not evolutionary and it's complex maybe to a six year old. That said it is imaginative and very funny and I think Oda sensei is a genius for that but when one looks at the complexity of the world Kishimoto has laid out in the back story alone (wars between 5 fully realized lands/ tribes, legacies of family bloodlines as well as of royal families) not to mention the current ones (Sasuke's new family, his betrayal of Orochimaru, naru -- whose evolution alone is worth more than most manga) then you realize it's no contest between Naruto and One Piece--Naruto is the deeper manga.

I don't mean to insult you as you are trying to do to us but to argue One Piece is more complex than Naruto is just sheer lunacy.

cant wait for the next chapter.hmm, wonder what will happen.

maybe we should hv like a debate forum for ppl to argue all they want. 🙂

I personally think One Piece is better than Naruto.

That said, this topic is horribly off the title "Chapter 366," especially with people misinterpreting so much of what others say - on both sides.

Back on topic, what do you guys think Itachi's personal goals are. What does he want to do with Sasuke?

Ok, lets see if I can clear up this horrid mess of a reply by Daedalus.

First of all. I have stated already that I am a fan of Naruto, in fact, I stated it no less than twice in my last post. Yet, you still find reason to try and insinuate that I am not a fan, and that the only reason I am here is to trash fans and harass people. That's a lie. Considering you accuse me of lying quite a bit in my last post, this can probably be considered ironic, at the very least.

You claim my facts are off. Yet, you've cited very few references to why they are off, and given no actual explaination aside from the fact that you're supposably in the entertainment industry. Which, as you've given no proof of, I will take to be another lie. I took no offense to your disagreement at all. However, in your last post you insulted me various times, even though I have done no such thing to you. I think anyone reading can clearly see who really had their ego bruised. You try to further insult me by claiming your girlfriend laughed while reading my post. Are you sure she's intelligent enough to understand what I say? Does she even really exist, like your supposed entertainment industry job?

I was never arguing Naruto's popularity in America to begin with. I was ALWAYS citing Japan as my source. I didn't specifically state that because I believed you to be competent enough to understand that in my last post. Clearly, I was wrong. I see you want statistics of Kochikame vs. Naruto. Kochikame has sold over 135,000,000 copies in Japan, while Naruto has sold around 71,000,000. Thats almost double (Again, do the math). You claim Naruto has reached top 20 on the booklist, and that is incorrect, aswell. The highest Naruto has ever placed is 21, which is actually also the highest any manga has placed. This was for volume 11. You claim Naruto volumes 1-7 are still in the top hundred. They're not even on the list, and havn't been in quite awhile. You're only reply to any argument seems to be "check NPD and Nielson". Is that all you have to offer? You're not intelligent enough to check your own references and cite them? Oh, and keep in mind when talking about favorite properties, Naruto is one of mine (Thats twice again I have stated, just incase you keep missing it, which it seems like you're doing. Or you're ignoring, which is also in the realm of possibility. I mean, it does make for a better argument for you if you claim I am not a fan of Naruto, just because I don't think its the best shounen manga ever).

It's a very valid reasoning to claim One Piece failed due to the anime failing. Its valid because thats how it happend. Anyone who paid any attention to it when it got liscensed can tell you this. They mishandled the dubbing, cut at least 30 episodes worth of content out (Ironically because it was considered too violent. Its iornic because you claim One Piece is a kids manga (Although most people would claim the same about Naruto since in the beginning the main character is 12, then turns 15, where-as in One Piece Luffy is in his early 20's), changed characters names, changed the plot, and not to mention the horrible cast they chose. In fact, FUNimation recently liscensed it after 4Kids lost it to start a new, better dub. Also, in regards to FMA, the anime is still on CN, but I guess you're too busy in your "entertainment industry" job with your girlfriend to even take notice of that.

I don't believe you've ever read One Piece. Thats the only logical sense behind your claim that it has no plot, that the characters never heal (They spend an entire plot arc obtaining a Doctor for their ship for crying out loud. Zoro is injured MOST OF THE TIME). You claim they never train to power up, which is a foolish statement. Throughout you can clearly see characters like Zoro training. He trains his swordsmanship daily. You claim they just randomly power up. Truth be told, Luffy NEVER powered up until recently (which he went into Gear 1 and Gear 2), until then he had circumstances behind alot of the fights. For some of them he was weakend because he was hungry, others he tried very hard and pulled out ever last drop of strength.

Preacher by Garth Ennis was good, but I always prefered stuff by Frank Miller and Alan Moore (I am anticipating the Watchmen movie greatly).

Again, when I stated DBZ was bigger than Naruto, I meant in Japan. Because those are the statistics that actually matter. I never mentioned Pokemon because I honestly didn't need to. Anyone whos been a fan long enough knows that the big three in America at the time where Dragonball Z, Pokemon, and Sailor Moon. Thats a historical fact. Also, I feel now is a good time to point out that during you're post, you've tried to insult me by likening me to a Republican and you've mentioned Iraq for some reason. What do these have to do with anything we're currently discussing? Nothing, thats what. Stop trying to confuse people by saying random things.

The ratings for One Piece and Naruto in Japan have been published in America by Newtype USA, an anime media magazine. Although I havn't read it in awhile (So I am unsure as to if they actually still print them), when I had a subscription to the magazine, they printed Japanese ratings every issue. These ratings showed that One Piece did better than Naruto. If you don't believe, find other people who've read it. It's a fact. I don't need to lie to prove anything you've said to be wrong, all the facts are there that prove you wrong. You just don't want to see them, nor admit that they exist.

Finally, you go on to say that I should do by job. Do what? Mamsmilk has every right to state his or her opinion. As do you. I do not edit peoples posts or delete them for stating an opinion. That would be completely unethical on my part. You've also claimed I whined about being called Unintelligable. You, in your first post, called all other people with an opinion different than yours in regards to Naruto being the best shounen manga "haters or unintelligable". You didn't just insult me, you've insulted hundreds, if not thousands, of people on this community, with just that statement.

Your final sentence claims that this board is for fans and true critics with actual logic. If that is so, then perhaps you should leave, as most of your logic consists of logicless name calling and accusations. Useless facts made up to corroborate your own agenda, aswell as further it.

What REALLY makes me laugh is that later on, in a different post from the one I initally am responding to, you say "No one said One Piece didn't have a good story. I like One Piece alot actually.", thats a direct copy and paste quote. And yet in earlier posts you claim the plot just has to do with characters senselessly powering up, not killing characters, not being complex, aswell as calling it a Kid's manga. Did you read earlier when I state the ages between the main characters of both Naruto and One Piece? I sure hope so.

Now, ignoring Daedalus, and actually replying to someone else....

Lime123, we do have a suggestion forum if you'd like to go and make that a suggestion. The admins will consider it.

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What the hell have you guys been talking about, man from what i read from kaioh's last post i can guess that crazy things have been said. OMG luffy's in his early 20s i thought he was 16 at the most

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we are all of the creed
the creed we worship rules us all
the creed of okutoness forever
that and when the next flight to japan

in this chapter the storyline moved on quite a bit, so for the next few chapters it's prolly gonna be mostly talk with no distinct movement in the storyline

Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot.

Ok, people who are writing insanely long posts with lots of stats. Here's a suggestion: find links off of official sites, news sites, etc. to back up your claims. List them at the bottom of another reply.

I will be doing a bit of research myself too.

And to Kaioh, I think that the whole world matters when you're doing statistics, not just Japan. The whole world is a market, and the world today is very international. It's a reflection of different modern cultures.