The Yuri and Shoujo Ai genres should be merged.
5 months ago
Posts: 166
Just saw that when I last commented about this topic, it wasn't actually in the Suggestions forum. [link to people commenting and generally agreeing here]
Basically there's no good reason to split them and it just gets confusing.
Same with shounen ai and yaoi

2 months ago
Posts: 88
Are you aware that difference between shoujo/shounen-ai and Yuri/yaoi is almost the same as for shoujo/shounen and josei/seinen? -ai is mostly around pg15 while Yuri/yaoi is always 18/19+
Because if it will be merged shoujo+josei and shounen+swinen also should be merged

2 months ago
Posts: 18
Quote from Nyxsha
Are you aware that difference between shoujo/shounen-ai and Yuri/yaoi is almost the same as for shoujo/shounen and josei/seinen? -ai is mostly around pg15 while Yuri/yaoi is always 18/19+
Because if it will be merged shoujo+josei and shounen+swinen also should be merged
This is completely wrong. Shoujo, shounen, josei and seinen are demographics and describe the target audience -- they're not an inherent indication of content (Banana Fish is a shoujo manga, Pandora Hearts is a shounen manga, etc). It's all to do with what magazine they ran in and what label they're released under. MU and most anime/manga sites use these as genre tags when really they're not.
The shounen ai/shoujo ai and yaoi/yuri distinction is something entirely made up by the English-speaking world. Japanese does not use the former at all, yaoi was used but isn't anymore, and yuri is still used sometimes. But both have been superseded by BL (Boys' Love) and GL (Girls' Love).

2 months ago
Posts: 55
Surprise, this is an English-speaking site. Also, I've seen Yuri being used more than GL by the Japanese.
I don't see the use of it being merged when basically everyone in the English-speaking community knows what the distinctions are. Unless MU wants to add a proper age rating system rather than just "Hentai" or "Mature" (which are just wishy-washy tags) like how Mangadex did, merging them right now doesn't have any benefits.
2 months ago
Posts: 525
Quote from Nyxsha
Are you aware that difference between shoujo/shounen-ai and Yuri/yaoi is almost the same as for shoujo/shounen and josei/seinen?
No it isn't.
Not even close.
So-called "shoujo ai"/"shounen ai" exists with both young and old target demographics.
There is just one single difference, and that one difference alone:
Whether they are "pure" or "impure".
Nothing more, nothing less.
The actual distinction is the same as works that are marked with the genre(s) "mature", "adult", "smut", or "hentai", versus those that have none of those tags
...and that is a distinction that is already made, by the fact that the works you'd want to be labelled as yuri/yaoi, are marked as "mature", "adult", "smut", or "hentai".
...and yuri is actually the term for any lesbian works, regardless. Both the most pure and innocent lesbian work, and the most graphic lesbian porn, is yuri.
I'm not just saying that this is the one and only way, that the word is used in Japan/Japanese, but it is also, by far, the most common way it is used in the West, in regards to Japanese media.
(whereas "shoujo ai", are works involving romance between a grown man and an underage girl)
"Shounen ai" is a BS Western term.
In Japan, it's all called BL (Boys' Love), regardless of whether it's "pure"/"impure", though the term yaoi (exclusively for porn) also exists ...and, again, barely anyone in the West, uses the term "shounen ai", anymore. (admittedly, as opposed to yuri, I avoid such works, so I'm not the most familiar with discussions regarding them, but...)
Furthermore, BL is purely gay works, that are made for a female demographic. With little to no regard/awareness of how actual gay/bi men/boys and how their relationships are.
Stuff made with a male target demographic, is called ML (Mens' Love), and is quite different.
Hence, a Mens' Love tag/genre needs to be added, to separate them from BL.
Shoujo ai needs to be removed, shounen ai and yaoi replaced with Boys' Love ...and Mens' Love be added. Furthermore, having them as "demographics", makes absolutely zero sense. They need to be classed as "genres".
2 months ago
Posts: 525
Quote from tylurr5
Surprise, this is an English-speaking site.
...and the terms shounen/shoujo ai are pretty much dead, among Westerners. Basically no one uses them.
Yuri is used for any lesbian works (just as in Japanese), and BL is used for gay works. Well, you may occasionally have someone use the term yaoi, but...
Also, I've seen Yuri being used more than GL by the Japanese.
Agreed. Yuri is very commonly used, whereas I've pretty much never encountered GL.
I don't see the use of it being merged when basically everyone in the English-speaking community knows what the distinctions are.
No.
There are no reasons to maintain the distinction, and countless reasons to merge them. Here are some:
- No one uses the terms shounen/shoujo ai anymore, nor the shoujo ai/yuri. (or male equivalent) distinction. (in the West, I mean. The Japanese never used them, at all)
- As the terms are obsolete and pretty much never used, I wouldn't count on everyone knowing the terms. Older manga nerds, sure, but...
- It is very common to want to search for yuri or BL content, without regard for if it is "pure"/"impure" ...and needlessly annoying/complicated/awkward, to have to do two separate searches, to do so.
- There are no clear and well understood instructions, on MU, for how to separate them, and the distinction demonstrably isn't well understood:
- Where is, or should be, the cut-off? 18+? 16+? There are some yuri-marked works, that are 13+...
- The previous thread, mention/linked in OP, also mentions that there were 250+ series with both "Shoujo Ai" and "Yuri" genres, and 338 with both shounen ai+yaoi, four months ago. With those numbers only increasing.
- To quote from the previous thread: "If the Romance/Ecchi/Smut/Hentai Genres already used by the Database are good enough for straight content, they should also be good enough to describe F/F content." (and obviously the same should apply to gay works)
Unless MU wants to add a proper age rating system rather than just "Hentai" or "Mature" (which are just wishy-washy tags) like how Mangadex did, merging them right now doesn't have any benefits.
I see no reason why the vagueness/imprecision of the ecchi/smut/mature/adult/hentai genres would be relevant.
The ecchi/smut/mature/adult/hentai genres exist, and fully serves to distinguish between "shounen/shoujo ai" and yuri/yaoi.
I fully agree that the ecchi/smut/mature/adult/hentai genres are vague, imprecise, and confusing, and a more clear rating system would be desirable (and being able to search for "X or above"/"X or below"), but that's very much a separate issue.
2 months ago
Posts: 525
I just looked at the genre-descriptions, on MU, and in the descriptions for shoujo/shounen ai, the description ends with "Girl's/Boy's Love", so to speak."
...
BL and GL both, of course, include "impure", and even pornographic works. The most graphic and extreme same sex porn, falls under BL/GL. Just the same as the most mild and innocent works of same sex romance.

2 months ago
Posts: 18
I disagree. Hentai is hardly wishy-washy. If it has female genitals, it counts as hentai. That's not that hard (pun not intended).
Also it being an English-speaking site does not stop people misusing the tags.
The distinction between shounen ai/shoujo ai and yaoi and yuri is way more wishy-washy. People are just expected to know what they mean, but they don't.
As zarian said, English-speakers have mostly stopped using shounen ai and shoujo ai. Yaoi and yuri are still used but I have seen a lot more people using BL and GL these days too.
It makes searching for them annoying as well. If they were united under a single tag, it'd be better.
Yaoi could just be replaced with Boys' Love + Smut (or Adult) and Yuri with Girls' Love + Hentai.
Plus a lot of BL, in my experience, only have sex scenes in the final chapter/extra stories, which means you get quite a few entries tagged with both shounen ai and yaoi, which makes no sense to me. There's also several webtoons (mostly Korean ones I think) where there are both R18 and R15 versions with and without the sexual content respectively.
So having these so-called distinctions just turns everything into a mess because the line is about as blurry as manga genitalia. Merging the tags and changing them to BL/GL would fix a lot of those problems in my opinion.
2 months ago
Posts: 525
Quote from Zazie122
I disagree. Hentai is hardly wishy-washy. If it has female genitals, it counts as hentai. That's not that hard (pun not intended).
So a penis doesn't make it hentai?
Having full on graphic sex, as long as the vagina isn't visible, isn't hentai? (so very graphic ...in all aspects, except the vagina)
...and what with how genitals are always censored... (granted, it often barely covers anything, but...)
Yaoi could just be replaced with Boys' Love + Smut (or Adult) and Yuri with Girls' Love + Hentai.
There is both BL and Yuri that is what on MU would tend to be tagged as mature, smut, adult, and/or hentai.
Hentai BL, is obviously yaoi, and smut/adult yuri is obviously what counts as yuri, according to the shoujo ai/yuri distinction.
To suggest that all Yaoi is smut/adult (and never hentai), and all "yuri" is hentai (and never smut or adult), is quite bizarre.
There's tons of smutty (clearly pornographic, but fairly mild) yuri, and plenty of (though what the proportion it is, I wouldn't know) extreme graphic hentai yaoi.
May I remind you, that the term Yaoi, comes from
"山無し (yama nashi, “no climax”) + 落ち無し (ochi nashi, “no point”) + 意味無し (imi nashi, “no meaning”), originally mocking those who criticised early yaoi works for being too focused on sex scenes instead of storylines."
...or you could go with the joke etymology, of "Yamete Oshiri Itai" (Stop, by butt hurts!)
There's also several webtoons (mostly Korean ones I think) where there are both R18 and R15 versions with and without the sexual content respectively.
This is also true of anime, where you have censored and uncensored versions ...though I haven't heard of this being a thing, with manga.
Somewhat complicates how to classify the series. Should they be marked with both? (with an extra clear indicator, next to it, to show there are different versions) ...and thus also appear in searches, for either level.

2 months ago
Posts: 88
it doesn't matter how other sites use these tags because the only what matters is THIS SITE descriptions and nothing more. Just because some users tag wrongly than doesn't mean it's site description, I'm often fixing wrong tags.
Tbh imo basic difference (which many site uses anyway) is:
Adult/18+ content: Yuri, Yaoi, Josei, Seinen (like sex intercourse, abuse, violence, gore, 18+ etc just everything not fitting for teenagers) Teenagers content: Shoujo-ai, shounen-ai, shoujo, shounen
But each site can have own descriptions and can use any tag any way they want, so we shouldn't focus how others are using it but how to make it easier and consistent here (if it's needed and possible).
2 months ago
Posts: 525
Quote from Nyxsha
it doesn't matter how other sites use these tags
It DOES matter, how the Western fandom use and understand the terms!
Choosing to use words that MUs users and target audience either doesn't know, or has a different understanding of, or which has no generally understood or agreed upon meaning, instead of just using the generally used and well understood terms, makes absolutely no sense, of any kind.
What possible reason is there, for keeping the shounen/shoujo ai genres?
You have not presented any.
All you've done, is to state that they are equivalent to the demographics ...which is both completely untrue (as has been pointed out), and also something that would show them to be unnecessary, as the age demographics would already distinguish them, making the shoujo ai/yuri distinction completely superfluous. (though, as has been pointed out: they don't distinguish ...but the "sexual" tags do)
Just because some users tag wrongly
The categories are inherently confusing and misleading.
Keeping the distinction causes a great amount of confusion and errors, for no reason. When tagging, searching, reading the info on pages about a series...
There is no possible justification, for keeping them.
Removing the fake distinction, makes things clearly understood by everyone, and eliminates those errors in tagging (you'll still have other errors, of course, you always do, but... why have more, for no reason?)
...and has absolutely no conceivable drawback, of any kind
Adult/18+ content: Yuri, Yaoi, Josei, Seinen (like sex intercourse, abuse, violence, gore, 18+ etc just everything not fitting for teenagers)
There's plenty of 15+/16+ stuff, that most (incl me) would argue should count. That is far removed, from being as innocent, as shoujo/shounen ai is supposed to be.
Particularly as softcore porn, is often considered to be more along the lines of 16+, rather than 18+.
Teenagers content: Shoujo-ai, shounen-ai, shoujo, shounen
Firstly:
Shounen, shoujo, josei, seinen etc, are age demographics!
Shoujo/shounen ai, yuri, yaoi, BL, GL etc, are genres.
Just as there are action series for all ages, there is yuri for all ages, and all genders. (though BL is different, in that it only ever has a female target audience)
Secondly:
"Teenager content"?
There is plenty of BL/yuri, that is in the "shoujo/shounen ai" category, that is made for an adult target audience. Not all media, that has an adult target audience is pornographic, contains graphic violence, and/or psychologically difficult content.
In fact, most media made for adults, doesn't.
The stuff that does contain it (to a great enough degree), is only meant for adults, but the reverse is absolutely not true!
Just because something is adult, doesn't mean it's something too extreme for non-adults to be allowed to read/see. (just as something meant for stamp collectors isn't forbidden for non-stamp collectors to see/read. It's just not something that is likely that they'll appreciate)
how to make it easier and consistent here (if it's needed and possible).
That's what you are arguing against.

2 months ago
Posts: 2
I thought it was AI, like ai Generated, never imagined it was Ai in japanese, thanks I guess, anyway, why are they separate they do mean the same thing don't they?
2 months ago
Posts: 525
Quote from BlackSpectrum
I thought it was AI, like ai Generated, never imagined it was Ai in japanese, thanks I guess, anyway, why are they separate they do mean the same thing don't they?
I'll tell a short (relatively? I tried) history of the terms:
Works that involve male-male romance/sex, written by and for women (with no regard for if it resembles actual gay relations) had some earlier names, but were later called "shounen ai". (shounen= boy, ai=love)
The term initially referred to pederasty (men having "romantic"/sexual relations with boys), but came to be used for relations between boys
...and then male-male relations, of any age.
Yaoi came about, to disparage doujin male-male works, because they were seen to just focus on sex.
But while Western fans interpreted this to mean that "shounen ai" are "pure and innocent" stories, with no sexual stuff, and yaoi are the more sexual works, that distinction has absolutely not been generally understood and made. Western fans referring to "innocent" works as "yaoi", for example was not uncommon. That's in the West. In Japan the terms appear to have been generally used interchangeably. Where distinctions were/are made, they don't seem to be about "innocent vs sexual".
These works (whether innocent or sexual) have later been replaced by the term "Boys' Love", instead. (which wasn't made, as a translation of shounen ai, BTW) ...and when I say replaced, I am referring to both Japan and the West. There is still some residual usage of the old terms, among some Western fans, but BL is far more common.
Works of male-male romance/sex, written for gay men, on the other hand, have been called "gei comi" (i.e. gay comics) or "bara". (rose)
Relatively recently, the term Mens' Love (in reference to Boys' Love), has appeared.
That said, I can't say which term was more common at any time in the past, or now. Partially due to male-male not being by cup of tea, but mainly because the genre is a lot less common, especially in the West. You may hear mentions of BL, here and there, but pretty much never hear of bara/ML. (I've pretty much only heard of it, in pages that give extensive info, about works involving same-sex relation. The fact that there are a lot more male fans of BL in the West, than in Japan, may be due to them not having access/awareness of bara/ML?)
...and female-female works, got the name "yuri" (lily), as a reference to "bara".
Only fairly recently, the term Girls' Love has appeared, as a mirroring of Boys' Love, though yuri is still the more common term. The two terms have identical meanings.
In the 90s, however, Western fans made up the term "shoujo ai", as a female-female equivalent of "shounen ai", to refer to more "pure"/"innocent" stories (in Japan, there exists a term called "shoujo ai", but it means relations between a man and an underage girl), and therefore only using "yuri" to refer to more "explicit" works.
A distinction that has never been made, in Japan. (18+ works, are marked 18+, but aside from that...)
However, both the use of the term shoujo ai, and the use of yuri to only mean more explicit works, always faced some criticism (both for being made up, and for the various other reasons mentioned, in this thread) and largely died out among Western fans, quite a while ago.
P.S. Yuri was initially pretty much exclusively made by and for women. Later you started to get some works, made for a male audience, and now that's common ...but a large part is still made by and for women, and it's also not uncommon for male targeted works to be made by women. (I remember reading an afterword, where a female mangaka, asking how to adjust her stories, for a male audience, was told by the editor, that as long as there were pretty girls, she could just write however she likes)

2 months ago
Posts: 88
I have just one question, if series is "yaoi" (eg Dear door) and you say it's not demographic, so what demographic that series has? Josei or Seinen?

2 months ago
Posts: 18
Not the user you're asking, but most BL magazines are targeted at women, so it'd be Josei. But there's no need to tag BL with a demographic tag because the demographic is implied by it being BL in the first place. The demographic is "people who want to read BL". Same with GL, although if you want to be really pedantic a lot of the magazines are targeted at men, so they'd be Seinen.
Demographic tags have less use these days with the internet blurring a lot of lines and the marketers not needing to label things as being for girls or boys as much any more.
I could go on a long rant about how misused demographic tags are in general (whyyyy are we tagging non-Japanese works with very specifically Japanese tags, guys?) but that's another, albeit related, issue.
Quote from zarlan
So a penis doesn't make it hentai?
Having full on graphic sex, as long as the vagina isn't visible, isn't hentai? (so very graphic ...in all aspects, except the vagina)
...and what with how genitals are always censored... (granted, it often barely covers anything, but...)
As far as I understand, hentai (which is yet another term that's primarily used by English-speaking fans, the Japanese term is eromanga) is specifically for heterosexual porn aimed at a male audience. MU also applies it to GL so that means this site uses the definition of there being girls involved.
Hentai BL, is obviously yaoi, and smut/adult yuri is obviously what counts as yuri, according to the shoujo ai/yuri distinction.
To suggest that all Yaoi is smut/adult (and never hentai), and all "yuri" is hentai (and never smut or adult), is quite bizarre.
There's tons of smutty (clearly pornographic, but fairly mild) yuri, and plenty of (though what the proportion it is, I wouldn't know) extreme graphic hentai yaoi.
What are you on about? That's not how those work. You're the one saying yuri = adult and therefore hentai. But Hentai does not apply to BL because it's not eromanga featuring a female character aimed at a male audience.
Just like how Teens' Love, while smutty, isn't hentai.
Somewhat complicates how to classify the series. Should they be marked with both? (with an extra clear indicator, next to it, to show there are different versions) ...and thus also appear in searches, for either level.
They should be marked as Boys' Love. This solves the exact issue you're talking about.