The Yuri and Shoujo Ai genres should be merged.
2 months ago
Posts: 525
Quote from Nyxsha
I have just one question, if series is "yaoi" (eg Dear door) and you say it's not demographic, so what demographic that series has? Josei or Seinen?
All BL have a female demographic, by definition (if it had a male target audience, it'd be ML) ...and explicit works are obviously not meant for younger people. So it's clearly josei.
Though, that said, as MU doesn't have a ML/bara tag, any pornographic gay works with a male target audience, would be marked as yaoi ...despite clearly not being yaoi. Though if the work you're talking about, is this one, then the cover would seem to indicate it is aimed at women.
2 months ago
Posts: 525
Quote from Zazie122
But there's no need to tag BL with a demographic tag because the demographic is implied by it being BL in the first place.
No it isn't.
They are not demographics, at all!
BL can be either shoujo or josei.
The demographic is "people who want to read BL
You could say the same thing, about any other genre:
Action, fantasy, sci-fi, mystery, comedy, sports...
And it would be just as wrong.
Same with GL, although if you want to be really pedantic a lot of the magazines are targeted at men, so they'd be Seinen.
No!
Yuri can be shounen, seinen, shoujo, or josei ...and, as I've said, yuri used to be purely for a female audience! And the proportion that is aimed at a female audience, is still big. (is it 50-50? More male? More female? I dunno, but there's plenty of both)
There's also some yuri works, that have no clear target gender, at all ...but will still have a target age. Or at least a minimum suitable age.
I could go on a long rant about how misused demographic tags are in general (whyyyy are we tagging non-Japanese works with very specifically Japanese tags, guys?) but that's another, albeit related, issue.
When you add non-Japanese works, in a database for Japanese works, then that is an inevitable thing that happens. Either you do that, or you don't include non-Japanese works. (and manga means, by definition, Japanese comics ...except the Japanese definition, where it means comics, or comic-y illustration. From anywhere, and of any style)
the Japanese term is eromanga)
Not exactly.
That is just one of the ways to describe it.
There's also manga labelled as 成人向け (seijin muke. I.e. "aimed at adults". Also used for non-hentai porn. Not that all works that are aimed at adults, are porn, of course, and thus don't get marked "成人向け" or similar), R18 (the same stuff about seijinmuke, applies to this as well) etc.
Also, according to the Japanese definition, all comics are manga. So a Spanish pornographic comic, which would never be called manga/hentai, counts as eromanga, in Japanese. You'd have to specify the country.
is specifically for heterosexual porn aimed at a male audience.
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No it isn't.
At all. In any way, shape, or form.
I am quite baffled, at the idea that anyone would have ever come up with that notion, and I have never encountered this notion, anywhere, ever, other than right now, from you.
Hentai, in the Western use of the term, refers to any Japanese (or East Asian, or just anything in manga-style) illustrated porn.
That is how it is, and always has been, used.
Your definition is not one that is shared by anyone else
...nor by MU, or any other database.
(how about you do an search on MU [or any other similar site], for yuri+smut, yuri+adult, yaoi+hentai...)
You'll not find any definition, that says otherwise ...or anyone else, who uses the term, in any other way. (you might possibly find some site that lumps in any and all illustrated porn, under a "hentai" category, due to laziness/indifference/convenience, but nothing else)
Just like how Teens' Love, while smutty, isn't hentai.
That depends on where you draw the line, for how explicit something needs to be, before it counts as hentai ...which is subjective. Different people draw the line at different places.
They should be marked as Boys' Love. This solves the exact issue you're talking about.
No it doesn't.
In any way, whatsoever.
There is BL that is "pure and innocent", BL that is extreme graphic porn, and everything inbetween
...and the works I was referring to, are ones that are on two separate levels on that scale, as there is a milder version and a more explicit one. (something you should be very well aware of, being the one who brought it up, in the first place)
The issue is how works should be marked, in terms of the degree of "pure"/"sexual" they are
...which has nothing to do with whether it is BL, yuri, hetero, lolicon, shotacon, bestiality, or some mix of any of the above.

2 months ago
Posts: 31
Replying specific to this toxic idea while we are talking about manga demographics: (I remember reading an afterword, where a female mangaka, asking how to adjust her stories, for a male audience, was told by the editor, that as long as there were pretty girls, she could just write however she likes)
THIS IS why some shounen and seinen series are trashes and disingenious towards their demographics even with editors present (which some of them are also women. They thought as long as there pretty girls, everything is alright. NOT. I care for character development and story plots THAT are not one-sided or making every thing is all 'FEMALES'. Some ecchi trashes also treat the male MC as doormats and trash and as long as the females are pretty, everything is fine? NOT.
Especially, those female mangakas who write and draw BL/Yaoi stories is writing and drawing FOR Shounen/Seinen demographics. THE RELATIONSHIP between the men/boys become strange and it feels like I am reading A SHOUJO manga. Though, I love several shoujo mangas (I read some when I was a child, like Candy-candy, dream whatever recommended by my female friends), BUT, when I am reading shounen/seinen manga, I EXPECT I DON'T MEET those story plot troupes found in many shoujo mangas, implied, or explicitly.
Further, while some female mangakas enjoy success in many shounen/seinen demographics, like Fullmetal Alchemist (I like the story/plot), but some female mangakas are totally disingenous and self-insert their 'male ideals' while disrespecting their male readers with 'as long as I draw pretty girls or probably some 'panty shots' or 'bras' or whatever, then the male reader is satisfied.... wtf!@!
On the other hand, there were none of male mangakas who could do the same success in shoujo/josei demographics because women usually are sharper and smarter when reading and usually more sexist in selecting.
Manga for boys and men are filled with either futa, doormat male MC, gayish relationship between their own OR filled with weak, beta, simping males towards the female MC. Lots of femdom and the male MC becoming the doormat and even if any rape made by the female MC towards male MC is considered normal while if it happens otherwise, everyone is enraged.
Several mangas THAT GET THE HIGHEST SCORES IN SHOUNEN/SEINEN are littered with BL/boys' love stories as long as there "are" or just one cute girl or one pretty girl, while the rest are pretty boys and bishounens then everything with all the men/boys having implied BL relationship then is alright like Pandora Hearts and Kuroshitsuji Which I cannot wrap my head around after reading them. The artstyle was mediocre, and everything was mediocre, yet it got a high score. I guess there are lots more female fanbases than male fanbases that it's skewed towards them much more.
I have been travelling around the world since 3 in five continents. My target is to travel to North and South Pole respectively. I love Japan and its culture the most, that's why I'm here. I hate the Western toxic f. culture where you are hated for being just existing... Now, retiring for life and enjoying life disconnected from modern world ~
2 months ago
Posts: 525
Your complaints are mainly just about the shounen genre, and how it seems to treat boys as horny simpletons. Of things that are true of shounen manga, regardless of the gender of the mangaka or editor.
Quote from Renzonokuken
THIS IS why some shounen and seinen series are trashes and disingenious towards their demographics even with editors present (which some of them are also women. They thought as long as there pretty girls, everything is alright.
...
Dude, you're making completely unfounded assumptions.
You're ignoring the context, that is that specific mangaka.
The mangaka in question, always has plenty of good character development and story plots. (or well... relative to the story plots you get, in stories of romance) Thus, there was no need for the editor to give any thought to that.
She doesn't have anything, like the kind of cheap BS ecchi fanservice, that shounen, or even seinen manga has. (not saying you don't get to see, e.g., underwear, or even the rare occasional nudity, but... not the typically kind of cheap BS fanservice ...which is something you mainly see from male mangaka, and is an issue with shounen manga, in general. Not female mangaka, writing shounen)
The issue was purely, and specifically, about any adjustments she'd need to make, to appeal to a male audience, rather than a female one. Any needed gender-specific adjustments.
Concluding that the mangakas works would appeal to either gender (but maybe less so, to guys, if the girls aren't pretty), is hardly strange.
Why would female targeted yuri stories, not also appeal to a yuri-desiring male audience?
Also, shounen manga aren't exactly known for having a lot of good character development and story plots, or for having a lot of depth to either.
Shoujo (also seinen/josei) manga are far superior, in that regard.
Yes, Fullmetal Alchemist is actually quite good in those regards, but it's an exception ...and written by a woman.
If you want to complain about shounen stories being bad, in these regards, then the problem clearly isn't female mangaka, not adapting to the target audience.
Indeed, if they have poor character development and plot, then it's probably because they've adapted to writing more like how shounen manga tends to be written.
Especially, those female mangakas who write and draw BL/Yaoi stories is writing and drawing FOR Shounen/Seinen demographics.
You're claiming that there are BL stories, with a male target audience?
THE RELATIONSHIP between the men/boys become strange and it feels like I am reading A SHOUJO manga.
Well yeah, of course.
BL is made by and for women, with zero regard for whether it bears any resemblance to actual gay relationships. They don't try to know anything about such relationships, as real life gay relations, or real life gay men, have absolutely nothing to do with BL.
Hell, some works even make up completely BS biological aspects, to their gay characters, that is completely contrary to how actual male biology works. (specifically, an anus that acts more like a vagina, and nothing like an anus... when I learned about that, I felt that the word "fujoshi" [literally "rotten girl"], for girls who like BL, is a very accurate term indeed, when used for fans of that sort of stuff...)
and usually more sexist in selecting.
...
WTF are you referring to, by "more sexist in selecting"?
Manga for boys and men are filled with either futa
You're saying futa is more a male targeted thing?
...
I'd say it's mainly a female targeted thing.
doormat male MC
There is a general attitude, of making a bland MC, so that anyone can put themselves in MC's shoes ...which is a thing, regardless of the gender of the person/people behind it.
gayish relationship between their own
You mean between the female characters? Because if you mean between male ones... that's not a thing, in shounen/seinen.
Well... some works will have some "hints", to make those who want to believe that they're gay, to feed their wishful thinking, but generally no more than that. At most, they might have one or two characters, who are outright (if not necessarily explicitly) gay.
...so as to increase their appeal, towards the females, to have a broader audience.
Like why you have that accidental "kiss" between Naruto and Sasuke, in Naruto.
There is no actual basis, for saying that there is any romance between the two, but shipping-happy people, don't need any actual basis, to convince themselves that their favourite pairing genuinely into each other, rather than it just being something they made up, with their wishful thinking
...and it can be about characters who don't even like or respect each other, who hate each other, or who are even indifferent to each other. Hell, they might not even be aware of each other, and you'll probably still have fans insist they're in love!
Shippers are quite pathetic... (unless they're sane/honest enough to freely acknowledge, that it's just their wishful fantasies, I suppose)
even if any rape made by the female MC towards male MC is considered normal while if it happens otherwise, everyone is enraged.
That's a completely separate thing!
That's due to two things:
-
Men/boys aren't considered to be possible to rape. After all, they want it ...and women can't possibly rape, nor would could they want to. Also, please keep in mind, that many public baths have a female staff member, who looks over the bath areas, to check that nothing bad is happening. BOTH areas! That she's looking into the male area is considered to be fine, because women (supposedly) just simply don't look at men, in a lewd way, the way men look at women.
And yes: that is all very much fucked up. -
It's considered (for the above reasons) a nice thing for the guy, as he gets some sexy action, without even trying, and without possibly being able to be blamed for it. (again: yes, that is fucked up)
...and let's not forget that shounen manga constantly portrays guys peeking at the women's bath, or doing a bit of groping or similar stuff, as normal and just "boys being boys". Stuff that gets no more than a little bit of complaints, and maybe a hit on the head.
Never treated as actual sexual assault. (I suspect this might play a role, in why stuff like groping in trains, and the like, is so common in Japan...)
...and speaking of these things:
It's not like you don't get rape of women (generally in shoujo/josei), being treated as an act of love. Not extremely commonly, but still.
And rape of men (generally the MC), by men (the love interest of the rape victim), in BL, is notoriously common.
It is apparently supposed to show how passionately and uncontrollably the rapists love is, towards the one he rapes.
(also, even in sex that starts off as consensual, not stopping even if your partner says no/stop [...which turns it into rape], does the same thing. It's not uncommon for a character to ask/desire, that their partner wont stop, even if they ask them to)
HOWEVER!
As I said, this is a completely separate issue, and has nothing to do with the other stuff you're talking about.
Several mangas THAT GET THE HIGHEST SCORES IN SHOUNEN/SEINEN are littered with BL/boys' love stories
...
Citation needed.
I guess there are lots more female fanbases than male fanbases that it's skewed towards them much more.
All shounen manga are aimed at boys. Even if some try to have some bits to attract some girls, as well, they are still, at their core, aimed at boys.
3 weeks ago
Posts: 13
Agree on merging Yuri/Shoujo Ai and Yaoi/Shounen Ai. If you want to make it clear that it's an explicit work, the Hentai category is right there. There's nothing stopping you from including both Yuri/Yaoi and Hentai on the same work.
I'm also in favor of consolidating Adult/Hentai/Smut. The genre page doesn't distinguish them enough to justify having all these different categories. (Smut could also be merged into Ecchi, if it was determined to be closer to that than Hentai)
3 weeks ago
Posts: 126
I know this is straying a little off the original topic, but I cannot overstate how vehemently I'd be against merging the Adult, Hentai, Smut, and/or Ecchi tags.
The idea of something heavily story-focused like for example The Broken Ring being tagged Hentai just because it has an R18 version really rankles me. Hentai is straight up porn that may or may not have much of a semblance of plot holding it together, whereas smut is just adult content and can be included as part of a complex, character-driven narrative.
Likewise, Ecchi is its own separate thing. It's generally less explicit, and is frequently a part of shounen works filled with heavy fan service.
I actively filter out works tagged as either Hentai or Ecchi since I know they're not for me, but in the genres I read I can still find serious stories that aren't all about sex that have the Smut tag because they have an R18 version, so I often don't include that as a filter. If Smut got lumped in with either one of those, I'd end up inundated with all sorts of fanservice and porn that I'm very much not personally interested in seeing when I'm looking for serious stories.
I've also seen stories with no smut whatsoever tagged Adult just because of the heavy and serious themes it contains, so I don't filter that out either.