ok after watching this last episode....i must say i hate suzaku even more, i wonder if anyone elses opinions have changed.....

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Quote from Monstar Maalik

ok after watching this last episode....i must say i hate suzaku even more, i wonder if anyone elses opinions have changed.....

Ummm. Why? All he did was do what I thought he was going to do for a long time.

Him joining lelouch made you hate him more? I'm sorry but I don't follow your logic

I really should get an avatar

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Quote from Monstar Maalik

ok after watching this last episode....i must say i hate suzaku even more, i wonder if anyone elses opinions have changed.....

Ummm. Why? All he did was do what I thought he was going to do for a long time.

Him joining lelouch made you hate him more? I'm sorry but I don't follow your logic

A lot of Suzaku haters don't make any sense. They always try to find a reason to hate him in each episode even if he doesn't do anything. Suzaku could save the entire planet and people(the ones who dislike him) would hate him for it.

I dont really hate him, I just love how ppl making fun of him, Spinzaku being prime example

"we are people because of other people"
"I am who I am because of who we all are"

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Quote from Monstar Maalik

ok after watching this last episode....i must say i hate suzaku even more, i wonder if anyone elses opinions have changed.....

Ummm. Why? All he did was do what I thought he was going to do for a long time.

Him joining lelouch made you hate him more? I'm sorry but I don't follow your logic

A lot of Suzaku haters don't make any sense. They always try to find a reason to hate him in each episode even if he doesn't do anything. Suzaku could save the entire planet and people(the ones who dislike him) would hate him for it.

dude's mad dumb, after

lelouch's parents disapeared he was like tryin to pick a fight. kinda like ur da only enemy left.

"Hip-hop was set out in the dark. They used to do it out in the park"

A lot of Suzaku haters don't make any sense. They always try to find a reason to hate him in each episode even if he doesn't do anything. Suzaku could save the entire planet and people(the ones who dislike him) would hate him for it.

LOL, That is so true. I disliked Suzaku for a time for being so hypocritical but that phase passed quickly and I like him once more. He;s quite an interesting character I find. The number of times he's swopped allies whilst still fighting for the same thing amuses me.

The pen is mightier than the sword...and considerably easier to write with.

Quote from Crenshinibon

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Suzaku takes hypocrisy to the extreme.

If there were a show about e-x-treme hypocrisy, Suzaku would be the host.

His opening phrase would probably be: "I hate all this killing, but I shall kill you all in the name of an oligarchy who turned my people into second-class citizens over night. And remember, killing is bad! Pyu~un"

There's actually a difference between having a contradiction in your position and being hypocritical, which I think is something a lot of people don't entirely understand here.

Being hypocritical would have either have Suzaku actively killing every Japanese he could find, or saying he cared about honor and the like when in reality he acted the same as Lelouch (just as examples). His actual position has logic and reasoning behind his actions that justify them from his standpoint- but that doesn't make his position correct by any means. Like pretty much everyone else, I agree that his methods don't actually work very well, but simply calling him hypocritical reduces the complexity of his character and only serves to prove the fact that you don't entirely understand it.

Spoiler for R2 21 preview.

And a message to Lelouch fanboys- Lelouch actually says "it's just as Suzaku said, all that matters are the means" in the extended preview for 21 :|...

But isn't killing your dad (who believed in honor and ethics) who belived in his country and then you cap him just to stop the fighting. But yet and still you have "honor and ethics" and fight your own people at the behest of your masters for a "better day" is just plain hypocrisy. Hating Lelouche but then joining him just proves that he's a hypocrite.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocrite
2nd def.

Yeah, Lelouche a bastard, but hey he's the main char. and he wants to kill his dad for what he's done to him personally.

I don't hate him 'cause hate is the ultimate form of love, but I dislike his ass with a passion.

Because I can 😀 😀 😀

But really though how can you be a sellout and expect to still be able to go home? That ain't done where I'm from 😔 😔 😔

His position is a little bit different from how you're interpreting it to be (and for the record, I was using the second definition from the start).

Suzaku's inherent position is "an end to war with as few innocent deaths as possible." Hence killing his father to force a Japanese surrender that would have been inevitable anyway. As far as hypocrisy goes, that's eliminated from the argument because he developed his feelings on honor and ethics being greater than the ends as a result of said incident, however, his previous stance on innocent deaths remained the same. The Black Knights were a terrorist organization creating a Japan without concern for ethics and morals throughout the entire first season, so killing them (the smaller power in comparison to Britannia) is more likely to end with less deaths and a peaceful Japan which he believes he could have created through rising up the ranks (obviously, he couldn't have, but that's another matter entirely). That isn't acting in contradiction to his stated beliefs or feelings at all, it's upholding them. The contradiction in his position that I spoke of is that even though he wants a "free" Japan, he's not willing to accept any Japan.

Simplified answer: He's fighting for a specific type of Japan, not just the notion of Japan, so killing people he views as terrorists sabotaging that ideal isn't hypocritical.

He's taken only 3 hypocritical actions, and they all took place during season 2: betraying Lelouch to the Emperor (ends > means), Lying to Nunnally (which he swore not to do), and attempting to assassinate the Emperor (once more ends > means).

As to him joining Lelouch, we don't know what actually happened during that month, so virtually any explanation is possible. What I do know is that in the extended preview monologue for 21 Lelouch says this explicitly (and the monologues are all canon): "It's just as Suzaku said: all that matters are the means." It's highly likely that by that time they were seeing eye to eye, and came up with a method of succession that was acceptable to both of them. In this case, they performed a complete coup without killing anyone, which upholds Suzaku's core beliefs.

You're right- two of the hypocritical actions he took make it so that Lelouch is probably the only person in the world who would ever trust him again (possible exceptions of Anya and CC).

I'm pretty much done with this debate. People are obviously free to disagree with me, but I feel that myself and several others in this thread have already voiced our side adequately and from a purely logical standpoint.

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Quote from Crenshinibon

I'm pretty much done with this debate. People are obviously free to disagree with me, but I feel that myself and several others in this thread have already voiced our side adequately and from a purely logical standpoint.

yea...so you're basically saying he's stupid. very convincing argument.

"Hip-hop was set out in the dark. They used to do it out in the park"

well tbh I truely got over my dislike Of suzaku when he 'killed' Nunnaly

If there was a real evil in the universe it would be the illusion that man creates to defend its Forsaken Ideals.

Quote from Crenshinibon

His position is a little bit different from how you're interpreting it to be (and for the record, I was using the second definition from the start).

Suzaku's inherent position is "an end to war with as few innocent deaths as possible." Hence killing his father to force a Japanese surrender that would have been inevitable anyway. As far as hypocrisy goes, that's eliminated from the argument because he developed his feelings on honor and ethics being greater than the ends as a result of said incident, however, his previous stance on innocent deaths remained the same. The Black Knights were a terrorist organization creating a Japan without concern for ethics and morals throughout the entire first season, so killing them (the smaller power in comparison to Britannia) is more likely to end with less deaths and a peaceful Japan which he believes he could have created through rising up the ranks (obviously, he couldn't have, but that's another matter entirely). That isn't acting in contradiction to his stated beliefs or feelings at all, it's upholding them. The contradiction in his position that I spoke of is that even though he wants a "free" Japan, he's not willing to accept any Japan.

Simplified answer: He's fighting for a specific type of Japan, not just the notion of Japan, so killing people he views as terrorists sabotaging that ideal isn't hypocritical.

He's taken only 3 hypocritical actions, and they all took place during season 2: betraying Lelouch to the Emperor (ends > means), Lying to Nunnally (which he swore not to do), and attempting to assassinate the Emperor (once more ends > means).

As to him joining Lelouch, we don't know what actually happened during that month, so virtually any explanation is possible. What I do know is that in the extended preview monologue for 21 Lelouch says this explicitly (and the monologues are all canon): "It's just as Suzaku said: all that matters are the means." It's highly likely that by that time they were seeing eye to eye, and came up with a method of succession that was acceptable to both of them. In this case, they performed a complete coup without killing anyone, which upholds Suzaku's core beliefs.

You're right- two of the hypocritical actions he took make it so that Lelouch is probably the only person in the world who would ever trust him again (possible exceptions of Anya and CC).

I'm pretty much done with this debate. People are obviously free to disagree with me, but I feel that myself and several others in this thread have already voiced our side adequately and from a purely logical standpoint.

Isn't this justifying murder of your own people? 😕

But really I got what your saying, it's just a difference of opinions 🤣

And remember: I'm not always right, but I'm never wrong. 😔 😔

joking 😲

I ike Suzaku more because of episode 21. He like vaporized one of the guards attacking Lelouch! Four guards attacked 3 fell down.

I really should get an avatar

In the latest episode, Lelouch was a major prick.

Before he still did bad things, but you could still relate to him.
But now, he's just being nonsensical evil. 😕

So, I hate the fact he changed, yeah that's it.
Same for Suzaku, why the sudden change.

They're like completely different characters now. 🤣 😛
Kallen too, she would've never given up on Lelouch that easily.

I think.

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Its still Lulu, and I believe he has a reason for this so I'm not judging ihm until I fully understand the plan

If there was a real evil in the universe it would be the illusion that man creates to defend its Forsaken Ideals.

I'm 100% behind Lelou.
He has to have a reason why he's doing all this.
I'm just glad Suzaku's not that hate-able anymore. ='/
Maybe I've been waiting for this to happen? O_o
Used to hate him after all. :'p I was hesitantly rooting for him when he was fighting Bismarck with his new (pretty) and improved Lancelot Albion..>_> (lawl xD)

But I've always loved DORK!zaku. ♥ xD

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