There's something that's been bothering me for a while. In my country, if you watch the daily news there's a high change you'll hear something about a baby found dead in a trashcan/dumpster. Of course the next step is for the police to take legal action and look for the woman who gave birth and abandoned her baby and then arrest her.

Now my question is: Why is it illegal to throw you baby in a dumpster while abortion is legal?

Please note that this is not a topic about whether abortion is morally right or wrong. I am against of both abortion and abandoning babies which results in their death. Just use contraception. If you can't handle the consequences of unprotected sex then please don't have it. What I want to know is why is it ok for a doctor to kill an unborn child while it's illegal to kill it yourself after it is born? The way I see it the unborn child's life is equal to the born one's.

(Note: If this is inappropriate for Chatter Box, then perhaps it should be moved to a better section. Thank you.)

[color=black]Does not compute.[/color]

You address the reason, I believe, for the reason people don't see dumpster babies the same as abortion babies. I think it's because people believe that it's not a "baby" as it is just a mass of cells during the stages it is aborted, but cells are the basic unit of life, so killing cells is the same. I am against abortion and dumpster babies also, just sad.

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Hmm. This is a very interesting topic, and you bring up a good point. I guess I can't think of any real reason why a baby is only technically "murdered" outside of the womb, but I suppose it's harder to think of a baby as an actual child with a future when it's just a lump in someone's belly. I can't understand why one is illegal while the other is not. I think it's just a rather large double standard of sorts.

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I'm with you. But it's terrifying to think that if abortion would be illegal, how many babies would become dumpster babies instead?

I wrote a bunch more but it got preachy.

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Quote from AA2109964

You address the reason, I believe, for the reason people don't see dumpster babies the same as abortion babies. I think it's because people believe that it's not a "baby" as it is just a mass of cells during the stages it is aborted, but cells are the basic unit of life, so killing cells is the same. I am against abortion and dumpster babies also, just sad.

That's basically it. We can argue about when life begins and all that for centuries, but the reality is that birth itself is a line. Once a human is born, it's alive, and therefore killing it (even through inaction) would constitute murder. "Killing" (I use this term loosely, as the semantics suggest that this is impossible) something before it is born is inarguably a gray area, you may have your personal opinions, but the issue is up for debate on a massive scale with no definitive conclusion.

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Make abortion illegal?

You're having a laugh. If that's the case the increase in babies being dumped will be even higher if you're forcing women to give birth to babies they don't want/can't look after.
And it's not just the simple case of using contraception. They're not 100% effective anyway.
What if the woman's raped?

It's difficult to say whether abortion = murder, as the debate about whether you're 'murdering' it before it's born will never be concluded. People have their opinions, but it's not solid. Not as solid as the fact that killing a living human being is indeed murder.

Quote from Crenshinibon

Quote from AA2109964

You address the reason, I believe, for the reason people don't see dumpster babies the same as abortion babies. I think it's because people believe that it's not a "baby" as it is just a mass of cells during the stages it is aborted, but cells are the basic unit of life, so killing cells is the same. I am against abortion and dumpster babies also, just sad.

That's basically it. We can argue about when life begins and all that for centuries, but the reality is that birth itself is a line. Once a human is born, it's alive, and therefore killing it (even through inaction) would constitute murder. "Killing" (I use this term loosely, as the semantics suggest that this is impossible) something before it is born is inarguably a gray area, you may have your personal opinions, but the issue is up for debate on a massive scale with no definitive conclusion.

I can see why that this could never reach a conclusion but what also bothers me in this issue is that the mother who aborts a child is viewed differently from the one who abandons it. I'm not saying that women who abort their child should do prison time in this day and age because there are also many reasons for why someone aborts a baby (ex: the woman was raped and she could not endure carrying a rapist's child). But there are those lazy pricks that just "enjoy their time" and then when confronted with an unwanted child they discard it as if it was nothing. And then they return to their bad habits over and over again.

Edit:

Quote from tactics

Make abortion illegal?

You're having a laugh. If that's the case the increase in babies being dumped will be even higher if you're forcing women to give birth to babies they don't want/can't look after.
And it's not just the simple case of using contraception. They're not 100% effective anyway.
What if the woman's raped?

It's difficult to say whether abortion = murder, as the debate about whether you're 'murdering' it before it's born will never be concluded. People have their opinions, but it's not solid. Not as solid as the fact that killing a living human being is indeed murder.

I never said abortion should be illegal. I was only wondering why these two matters are treated so differently. I'm not going to start a campaign on banning abortion. It's just those cases of careless fun that bother me a lot. There are a lot of teenagers discovering the joys of human flesh without actually thinking about further consequences. And when those consequences happen not only the young mother is scarred for life by having an abortion but also a living thing is killed.

[color=black]Does not compute.[/color]

This is the same as saying: Killing an adult ant is the same as killing an adult human. What's the difference? Rationally none, they are both lives aren't they?

But don't you feel they are different?

Try to "think with your heart", is killing a newborn baby the same as killing a fetus? A 4 month old fetus has no conscience, it doesn't know it's dying, it won't feel pain or anything.

Edit: Think about it, if you had to choose between killing a newborn or a fetus, you would go "whatever"?

Quote from AA2109964

You address the reason, I believe, for the reason people don't see dumpster babies the same as abortion babies. I think it's because people believe that it's not a "baby" as it is just a mass of cells during the stages it is aborted, but cells are the basic unit of life, so killing cells is the same. I am against abortion and dumpster babies also, just sad.

by your logic it should be illegal for men to masturbate and for woman to menstruate.
this might sound cruel but if a living being is inside you you have the right to remove it because it falls within the domain of personal freedom (i mean would you ban women from punching themselves in the stomach or drinking while pregnant) so whats left is wither we force women to use unsafe and dangerous method to abort what is essentially at early stages a parasite or provide safe methods so the mother wont be harmed
and the only benefit i could see from seeking legal action with dumpster mom is to prevent other "parents" who want to get rid of their children from dropping them off at the most dangerous place for a baby

Quote from Maharajah

Quote from Crenshinibon

Quote from AA2109964

You address the reason, I believe, for the reason people don't see dumpster babies the same as abortion babies. I think it's because people believe that it's not a "baby" as it is just a mass of cells during the stages it is aborted, but cells are the basic unit of life, so killing cells is the same. I am against abortion and dumpster babies also, just sad.

That's basically it. We can argue about when life begins and all that for centuries, but the reality is that birth itself is a line. Once a human is born, it's alive, and therefore killing it (even through inaction) would constitute murder. "Killing" (I use this term loosely, as the semantics suggest that this is impossible) something before it is born is inarguably a gray area, you may have your personal opinions, but the issue is up for debate on a massive scale with no definitive conclusion.

I can see why that this could never reach a conclusion but what also bothers me in this issue is that the mother who aborts a child is viewed differently from the one who abandons it. I'm not saying that women who abort their child should do prison time in this day and age because there are also many reasons for why someone aborts a baby (ex: the woman was raped and she could not endure carrying a rapist's child). But there are those lazy pricks that just "enjoy their time" and then when confronted with an unwanted child they discard it as if it was nothing. And then they return to their bad habits over and over again.

Yeah... that's kinda of a myth. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm sure there's a small minority that your logic does, in fact, apply to, but there are dozens upon dozens of reasons for someone to get an abortion, so it doesn't make sense to apply a social stigma unless that was actually the case. Even if your personal beliefs go against casual sex or whatever, you shouldn't assume that large numbers of people just flock to abortion clinics out of sheer irresponsibility, that's just a personal bias that you yourself have developed. There's a difference between making a conscious, reasoned decision to have an abortion and just doing it because you don't want to deal with the problem. I sincerely doubt there are many people in the world that just think "whoops, I'm pregnant, better get down to the abortion clinic again." Having seen multiple people struggle with this decision, I can assure you that it's often very difficult and complex no matter what conclusion is reached. You'd have to either be ignorant, just not thinking, or have a very low opinion of the average person's conscience to think otherwise.

On the other hand, dumping a living kid in a trash can is always irresponsible. Even leaving a kid in front of a church like that old Hollywood cliche would be more acceptable.

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lol your idiotic ramblings sound [or reads] just like from any rightwing christian who does not understand how the real world works

seriously
not one person takes this like a day in the sun
you just dont go in
fixtrixmagicboom
and then go out fucking hordes of random men again
[i guess it is possible some does but they are probably mentally ill or in some sort of addiction/line of work[prostitution] that they cant help getting pregnant from time to time]

on a side note

why dont they leave the babies with nuns?
or just drop them off inside a church or something
leaving them in trashcans seems like a bad idea

Quote from Maharajah

Edit:

Quote from tactics

Make abortion illegal?

You're having a laugh. If that's the case the increase in babies being dumped will be even higher if you're forcing women to give birth to babies they don't want/can't look after.
And it's not just the simple case of using contraception. They're not 100% effective anyway.
What if the woman's raped?

It's difficult to say whether abortion = murder, as the debate about whether you're 'murdering' it before it's born will never be concluded. People have their opinions, but it's not solid. Not as solid as the fact that killing a living human being is indeed murder.

I never said abortion should be illegal. I was only wondering why these two matters are treated so differently. I'm not going to start a campaign on banning abortion. It's just those cases of careless fun that bother me a lot. There are a lot of teenagers discovering the joys of human flesh without actually thinking about further consequences. And when those consequences happen not only the young mother is scarred for life by having an abortion but also a living thing is killed.

Why they're treated differently? Let me repeat myself:

It's difficult to say whether abortion = murder, as the debate about whether you're 'murdering' it before it's born will never be concluded. People have their opinions, but it's not solid. Not as solid as the fact that killing a living human being is indeed murder.

This is why it's different. Because it's a grey area whether it's considered murder or not, whereas leaving a baby in a dumpster to die is. It's debatable whether having an abortion means you're killing a living thing.
People exploring with sex will never change either. Yeah they're silly when they're not being careful but it is always going to happen, no matter how much you hate it and frown upon it, but what can you do? Don't think that making abortion illegal will stop them.

Quote from mangacraze

Quote from AA2109964

You address the reason, I believe, for the reason people don't see dumpster babies the same as abortion babies. I think it's because people believe that it's not a "baby" as it is just a mass of cells during the stages it is aborted, but cells are the basic unit of life, so killing cells is the same. I am against abortion and dumpster babies also, just sad.

by your logic it should be illegal for men to masturbate and for woman to menstruate.
this might sound cruel but if a living being is inside you you have the right to remove it because it falls within the domain of personal freedom (i mean would you ban women from punching themselves in the stomach or drinking while pregnant) so whats left is wither we force women to use unsafe and dangerous method to abort what is essentially at early stages a parasite or provide safe methods so the mother wont be harmed
and the only benefit i could see from seeking legal action with dumpster mom is to prevent other "parents" who want to get rid of their children from dropping them off at the most dangerous place for a baby

But... Menstruation and masturbation are different then a fertilized egg. If those two things never meet it wouldn't make a baby in the first place. Or anything for that matter. I'm trying to think of a good analogy but I can't find one, but yours is just wrong.

Quote from TaoPaiPai

lol your idiotic ramblings sound [or reads] just like from any rightwing christian who does not understand how the real world works

seriously
not one person takes this like a day in the sun
you just dont go in
fixtrixmagicboom
and then go out fucking hordes of random men again
[i guess it is possible some does but they are probably mentally ill or in some sort of addiction/line of work[prostitution] that they cant help getting pregnant from time to time]

on a side note

why dont they leave the babies with nuns?
or just drop them off inside a church or something
leaving them in trashcans seems like a bad idea

Can I just say you described half my friends? One is going to get an abortion soon just because she doesn't believe in contraception. Abortion IS her contraception and she had no second thoughts about it. You're naive to think there aren't people out there like that.

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Abortion is, sometimes, a necessity. Abandoning a child is a crime.

First of all: when talking about abortion, please, don't start spouting nonsense like "teenagers who can't keep their legs closed". Abortion is a whole other reality: girls who have been raped, children who won't survive the 3rd year of life, children who will have disabilities that'll compromise their whole life, children who would not be able to live decently because the family is poor...

Abortion is about trying to make the life of those who will live better. Sometimes you don't have a choice in doing so. And it may be even more selfish to keep the child. Think about a child who'll need for his whole life expensive cures. The parents may be willing to help him/her and this a wonderful act of charity. But... When they'll die? The brothers/sisters will have to look after him/her. You have just condemned not only the disabled child life, but also someone else's life, someone who could not choose by himself.

Killing a child in the trashcan is the same of killing another person, who obviously did not wished to die.

For the one who talked about cells like they are sentient beings who are alive, remember that the meat you eat every day is made of cells of animals who obviously didn't want to be killed. Don't they, as well, have a will? Also remember that a child is not self conscious until his 2nd year of life and his mental faculties are like a dog's until the 3rd year. But I don't think you have ever thought about the animals slaughtered, didn't you?

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Quote from Kitteh_13

Quote from mangacraze

Quote from AA2109964

You address the reason, I believe, for the reason people don't see dumpster babies the same as abortion babies. I think it's because people believe that it's not a "baby" as it is just a mass of cells during the stages it is aborted, but cells are the basic unit of life, so killing cells is the same. I am against abortion and dumpster babies also, just sad.

by your logic it should be illegal for men to masturbate and for woman to menstruate.
this might sound cruel but if a living being is inside you you have the right to remove it because it falls within the domain of personal freedom (i mean would you ban women from punching themselves in the stomach or drinking while pregnant) so whats left is wither we force women to use unsafe and dangerous method to abort what is essentially at early stages a parasite or provide safe methods so the mother wont be harmed
and the only benefit i could see from seeking legal action with dumpster mom is to prevent other "parents" who want to get rid of their children from dropping them off at the most dangerous place for a baby

But... Menstruation and masturbation are different then a fertilized egg. If those two things never meet it wouldn't make a baby in the first place. Or anything for that matter. I'm trying to think of a good analogy but I can't find one, but yours is just wrong.

Quote from TaoPaiPai

lol your idiotic ramblings sound [or reads] just like from any rightwing christian who does not understand how the real world works

seriously
not one person takes this like a day in the sun
you just dont go in
fixtrixmagicboom
and then go out fucking hordes of random men again
[i guess it is possible some does but they are probably mentally ill or in some sort of addiction/line of work[prostitution] that they cant help getting pregnant from time to time]

on a side note

why dont they leave the babies with nuns?
or just drop them off inside a church or something
leaving them in trashcans seems like a bad idea

Can I just say you described half my friends? One is going to get an abortion soon just because she doesn't believe in contraception. Abortion IS her contraception and she had no second thoughts about it. You're naive to think there aren't people out there like that.

when people say abortion is wrong because the origin of humans are cells then by their logic the origin of these "cells" are sperm which by their logic should be illegal to kill because human life originates from it besides i see a larger difference between a zygote and a baby than i do between a zygote and sperm