Hi everyone, I'm conducting a university research on BLs and homosexuality, I'd like to know what the readers think about the representation of queer people in those stories: especially queer people, do you feel represented by them? How could they get more realistic?
I personally think that BLs are meant to be unrealistic, but the fact that it's basically the major way Japanese citizens get to know the LGBT community kinda concerns me. I would like to see more stories that show less stereotyped characters who struggle with their homosexuality.
I have also prepared an anonymous survey (https://forms.gle/jGi2rY6R1QYKQyW78) which you can answer to if you'd like to help me get some data.
That would be very helpful, thank you so much for your help!!

That strikes me as a fundamentally inane question. Almost all BL manga is written by straight women for other straight women. Yaoi communities online are communities for women. Gay men have their own communities, and indeed their own genre of manga called Bara. A better question would probably be what BL manga represents to women.

Furthermore, even if that was not the case, I'm confused why it matters if it's realistic regardless of who writes or reads it. Is how realistic a story is correlated in some way with it's artistic value? I don't think so.

"We can not resort to simplistic or extreme solutions which substitute myths for common sense." ― Jimmy Carter

No, but I don't think it's supposed to. I agree with the last post.

Quote from AquarianDemocrat

Almost all BL manga is written by straight women for other straight women. It isn't restricted to manga either. There are plenty of M/M romance novels written in Western countries, usually written by women.
There are some good LGBT manga out there but they usually aren't romances.

As others have said the BL is not realistic and GL is just as bad. However keep in mind 'straight' romance isn't realistic either, so when you add LGBTQ+ elements it compounds the problem.

this reddit post (link) is about problems with romance focused stories in general. Look at the comments by LaMaltaKano and furbs4422

Another article to look at
excerpt from above link
--when the only exposure to relationships one has is through a screen, their standards for one become skewed.

Edit : take a look at this post here on MangaUpdates. It contains discussions that relate to some of your survey questions
https://www.mangaupdates.com/topic/c1qj4ub/why-is-there-so-much-more-yaoi-bl-than-yuri-gl?page=1&

Edit 2: additional articles/posts that might interest you
https://www.reddit.com/r/boyslove/comments/t8fk0v/research_on_bl_made_by_men/

https://www.penguin.co.uk/articles/2023/06/gay-literature-erotic-novels

Largely? Probably not. You asked a pretty difficult question so you're getting a long answer, sorry for the essay lol.

Sometimes I can see aspects of myself in these stories so vividly, it hurts and naturally, no work can "see" me fully, nor do I want it to (sweet, sweet escapism). There's a lot of great stories out there, Harada's One Room Angel makes me cry every time; Aiou Futari ; Kyou mo Ashita mo, Kazoku desu , Restart wa Tadaima no Ato de deal with representation really well. One point that could be made, most of these focus on gay people as main characters, so we can stay in their head for a bit, and include specific issues, whether concerning family, society, or a relationship. However, these elements aren't too dramatized, no weird jumps to conclusions or really harmful tropes played for laughs. (On that note, exploring darker dynamics and elements in fiction is way better and safer than in real life).
Even more out there stories like Ii Ko ni Dekitara Hometekure or Oni to Tengoku find their audience and tackle relatable topics of love, societal pressure and loneliness in a respectful way.

I think that like with any kind of fiction, it's definitely not perfect, but it shouldn't be either. I'm not sure if fiction can really be educational to begin with, it cannot show a variety of queer people in one go. It's hard to say how seriously it's taken. Is there an over-representation of certain stereotypes? For sure, BUT it really depends on how it's done, which is pretty much my main point.

For it to be a good representation, in my eyes, it needs those supporting story and character elements that tie it together, with some sort of realism or acknowledgement of issues queer people face. There needs to be empathy and compassion for these characters and their stories, not for their homosexuality to be just cheap fuel for drama.

I don't think it's a problem of straight people writing vs queer people writing. There's all sorts of experiences and no "one good rep" for all of it, so there should be all kinds of stories, for a variety of people.But there's loads of BL written by straight female mangaka for other straight women or so it seems, cause how can you really tell? A big part, maybe, but they could be queer and in the closet, they could be trans, could be straight, who knows. Either way, I don't care who its by or really for, as long as it comes with empathy and respect. Variety is a big plus, everyone can choose what they want.

TLDR You have been warned!
But the essence is, if you think I have been objectifying M/M stories (East AND West!) and people for the last 50 years, then you HAVE to admit I've been doing the same to M/F stories for 55 years.
Beautiful people doing dramatic and SEXY things, that are not me!
And more importantly, are NOT REAL!!

I haven't "believed" any romance story, straight or queer, was a real depiction since the 70's.
And I don't think any real-life people in real-life relationships need to worry about me thinking about them and how they live their real lives.

But I will say this, finding Kirk/Spock in the 70's as a child was an innoculation against the straight(hah!)-laced conservative mindset and society around me throughout the decades.
Also, "straight" cis females don't have to be bi, lesbian, queer, or "other", to write or find satisfaction and enjoyment in stories about people not like them.
(Check out studies about arousal responses, among others, and about updated sociological/physiological studies; biological, gender, presentational, and attractional/arousal is no longer rigid categories, but a spectrum!)

So...
Don't discount the "in" that YAOI, Shounen Ai, Danmei, and BL can give to those noobs who came for the Bishounen and stayed for the love! <3

What follows is a comment I made on a YouTube creator's channel, specifically about the low visibility or presence of F/F fanfic, but I think if you care to read my comment, it may be interesting.
Or not...

Cis/Het W/F 60
One Het relationship 40 years ago.
Too lazy/selfish (my words) to pursue more.
Find both M and F attractive, but M (irl or fictional) sexually desireable to me, but not enough to take personal action.
Asexual? Aromantic? Celibate? Chaste? Voyeur or Lurker in all types media/internet? Spinster?!
I don't know!

Knew gays and lesbians in US Army in 80's (never told on them!!) friends, but not "GBF".
Also friends with Cis/Het (more M than F then due to Army) but not friends after move to next post.
Same when out of Army, co-workers friends, Cis, mostly Het, but after work, nothing.
Passive Ally, passive in everything.
Always loved reading more!

First slash from 'zine in 70's Kirk/Spock (Pon Farr was intense!)
First non-Het romances were top shelf paperbacks at Waldenbooks in early 80's about fabulous and dramatic gay life at places that were NOT Fire Island.
Majority Cis/Het romances until late 90's (you know, internet!) till I threw them at wall, then start again (stupid people doing stupid things)
Most published non-trash gay and lesbian novels were "important" and not enjoyable to me.
Loved Sci-Fi Fantasy, started Western but discovered Asian (Anime/Manga) and English speaking fandom of Asian titles.
And a deep love of Bishounen aesthetic!
At same time, explosion of uncensored self-published romances tilting into erotica on A****n

Now the market from YA to all mass genres have a larger queer presence.
Some Cis/Het F writing in beginning but more Cis/non-Cis Het/non-Het F+N+T+M writing (female, non-binary, trans, male; kinda cool that reads as "Phantom"?!)

So...
M/F romance/ship/story I had followed because of Self-Insert and desirable males, but got less relatable after my real relationship (nothing bad, but unable to suspend disbelief with physical/emotional realities)
Afterwards, read M/F for stories, the guys, and the S*X!

M/M read for stories, the guys, and the SX!
(Seeing males acting, not as females as some claim, but males with inner lives, vulnerabilities, and an "easier to imagine" satisfaction in SX than I ever felt, due to their "mechanics". )
Tried F/F, but never could get into it.
Not that the story was boring, but the objects of my gaze, although attractive, were not physically desirable to me, and not a Self-Insert, and as Cis/Het F with 1 (one!) relationship, I found the physicality and emotions difficult to believe (like M/F above) having seen "under the hood" so to speak.

So, since I'm more Voyeur/Lurker in my consumption, than Self-Insert, I go M/M and M/F, etc. and not F/F.
I'm in NO WAY misogynistic!
But what I choose to read is what is what I find enjoyable.
And I'm totally in support of the writing and reading of published, self-published, and fan-published works by ALL queer authors, and non-queer authors who have good characters and good stories to tell.
But my time and money will be spent on M/M and M/F titles.
Thank you for reading. 😺

"No matter where you go, there you are."
Buckaroo Banzai

Did your survey.
Cut and pasted my other comment from below in it, and added a LOT more of my musings.
Hope it helps to see from an older CisHet? W/F viewpoint.
Cheers!😀

"No matter where you go, there you are."
Buckaroo Banzai

Thanks for the links. I'll read them too.

"No matter where you go, there you are."
Buckaroo Banzai

Yes!!

"No matter where you go, there you are."
Buckaroo Banzai

the fact that it's basically the major way Japanese citizens get to know the LGBT community kinda concerns me.

It concerns me you think BL/yaoi manga is remotely associated with homophobia in Japanese society. If anything, it's doing more good than harm in getting all the straight women (it's primary readership) invested in the stories & plights of the gay protagonists and their own struggles with homophobia ( a theme in some BLs - many BLs operate in worlds were everyone seems to be gay and homophobia doesn't exist...they even made a BL drama where the "straight" protagonist transfers to a high school where everyone is gay and he is just like "wtf is going on??" ), realistic or not. The fact it's written by straight women, for straight women, is the "gotcha" here. Yes, another can of worms, but it's ironically a net step forward. I recommend, if this project has anything to do with Japanese social issues, you research those independent of anime and manga. It's a completely different world. Or you read autobiographical manga by gay men such as Boku ga Otto ni Deau made or Gay Fuuzoku no Mochigi-san: Sexuality wa Jinsei da. for "realism."

Yaoi/BL, just like any manga genre outside of seinen and josei (gosh, and even then these stories are OTT!), is not meant to be realistic. They're mostly meant to be love stories. If they're realistic, that's more to do with the author's intentions for the story. I think the answer to your question from queer male readers would likely be "no, but some of them are pretty good at realism. Most of them are just hot and/or entertaining...or flat out dumb."

http://i.imgur.com/LxhWm.jpg (will reformat this some day…)

I thought you would find interesting a coherent and short breakdown from Exiled Rebels Scanlations of the history of Japanese Boys Love, and its terminology, and place in the Japanese straight female (fujoshi) male (fudanshi) readership, and Japanese queer communities with their own writings for their own communities, and the use, coopting, conflating, and misuse of the same by Western straight and queer people of all genders.

[url=]https://exiledrebelsscanlations.com/what-is-bl-yaoi

They have several good tl of C-webnovels, including the BL of "Lessons On Raising A Partner"
between shou Spirit/Fairy transmigrated/isekaied into a Potted Plant and gong interstellar retired Marshall who's secretly a Dragon.
So... absolutely NO queer real-life representation here! 🤣

And really, you need to divorce the frivolity of BL by "straight" Japanese women, the rawness of "Bara" by gay Japanese men, and the original Beautiful Boys Beautiful Words movement from the Showa24 group (see Manga histories) and the current expansion of the Japanese queer community writing for themselves, from the Western lenses of homophobia, repression, and other societal views.

I am only a HS grad, but I have read widely in fiction and non-fiction all my life.
I am not of Asian ancestry, and have no Asian family or friends.
But I have not only read J-Novels and Manga, I have read histories, and commentaries and studies, articles and posts.
I have watched not only Anime and live-drama, but a few films, more documentaries, and videos and commentaries from both Western and Japanese creators, speaking about current and historical life in Japan.
I am no expert, or even student, but just a passionate and hopefully well-informed layperson.

And I hope to be considered by others as not presumptious in adding this to the general discussion, but as a witness and possibly an ally to queer people wrestling with the question of BL/GL and who is it by, and who it it for, and if it can lead to a greater awareness of queer subjects written queer authors by those readers moving beyond the shallow end of pool.

I see BL/GL as beautiful people doing dramatic and sexy things, not as a representation of real current life, society, or situations.

The "straight" young females (supposed audience) are shown young males or females being loving and tender with each other and exploring the possibilty of pleasure and love and drama.

This can allow them feel arousal and desire (imo) safely and vicariously, before being exposed to the messiness and politics of navigating heterosexual relationships and the random chance of having a partner that would not care for their pleasure.

Also, it allows noobs to be exposed to "not-them" and possibly become baby allies (or discover another truth about themselves.)

Please don't have contempt about the writers, stories, and readers of BL not being authentically queer, creating a hostile enviroment.
I think BL is not Queer (historically, or at the moment) but it is developing more, and may become a sub-genre of queer.

Just look at M/F romance. Harlequins and Barbara Cartlands, to "love your rapist" Rosemary Rogers and ilk, to the modern cornucopia of genres-romance such as clean/Christian, sf and fantasy, paranormal, mystery, adventure, modern, dark, trash(haha) to BDSM, erotica, and downright literature (no HEA?!)

Please check out YouTube videos from Linfamy
(in the US, does illustrated histories and breakdowns of various history and folklore of Japan, sometimes funny.)
[url]https://youtube.com/@Linfamy

Between Shinto and Buddhism Daoism, and Confucianism, along with historical cultural practices, the primary focus was family and familial piety.
And to show piety was to honor your parents, grandparents, elders, ancestors, and to have children to continue the piety in honoring your family.
Marriage was not for love, it was for association, strenghthening the family group, and raising children (male) to continue the family, support their lord, support their religious and military duties, and make alliances with others (female)

And a good example of this, is the accepted practice of a primary wife, secondary wives, and concubines (sequestered in some eras) for the purpose of engendering children, not just for the sexual pleasure of the men of the family (not just the patriarch, but uncles and brothers had ther own sub-households!) if they could afford it and had enough status/rank.

Meanwhile the use of brothels with female and male sex workers, and higher ranking geisha houses and kabuki theater (male actors playing female roles) being visited by males.
And in the military, rank and age were used by some as reason to have liasons, but would still go back to family (not because they were "straight" and on the down-low) because that was your piety and honor.

Hierarchy was seen as important, though. If someone was older and/or of higher rank, but still performed in the passive role and was found out, bad things could happen.

And don't get me started about the priests.
Male children (under 10 years old iirc) were sold by poor families into brothels, or given to temples to be acolytes (and bed-partners) of older monks.
And lesser sons of higher status families (not wives' sons but the concubines'?) were also given also to temples.
This was known!

Homosexuality as thought of in Western culture was not what someone was, but what they did, and it may or may not have continued for the rest of their sexual or romantic life.

Once Western religion made in-roads, then later Western culture during the Meiji Era, and finally post-War global integration of education, society, and religion made some changes(?) to attitudes, more in alignment with Western repression.
But remember, they started with a totally different history/philosophy/religion/geography as a basis, so the underlying thought processes and feelings are not to the same extent as Western ones.

And this is my opinion, a synthesis of what I was taught, learned independently, read, saw, watched, and thought.
Thank you.

"No matter where you go, there you are."
Buckaroo Banzai

It’s not realistic, but no romance is.
Most romance stories are written as an escape to reality.
For example, using the most recent literary example of a massive hit I can think of, how many people that read the 50 Shades of Grey trilogy actually had or found their “own” Christian Grey?

Very few I would surmise, yet this series sold a crap ton of books and the movies were successful as well.

When EL James wrote those book she wasn’t trying to represent a realistic romance. How well would the book sold if it had been realistic?

These books are not good by any means, but they had some entertainment value.

Same goes for BL.

They are written for entertainment, not education.

And to OP
Check Thread "Am I fetishizing gay/lesbian couples?" from 2022
for more viewpoints somewhat tangent to this, found by checking public posts by another commenter on this thread (thank you other commenter)
(Obviously all this is English language about both Western and Asian works.)

Don't rely only on my and other commenters on this thread, or on your small-cast survey responses.
Go to places were avid fans speak freely about their feelings about the works they love, like, or despise.
Be a Voyeur or Lurker, don't guide the discussion, don't presuppose conclusions, then discount them or the readers when they don't fulfill your thesis.

Check other threads by forum or keyword search on this site
MangaUpdates.
Also check forums on NovelUpdates.
And Reddit.

Find anime/manga channels/creators on YouTube, TikTok, InstaGram, and others, and watch not only the clips, but read the comments.
BookTube, BookTok, and others, the creators and the commenters.
MyAnimeList, Anime-Planet, AnimeNewsNetwork also have forums or comments to varying degrees.

ArchiveOfOurOwn (AO3) is good for the fan-fic (high queer quotient, relatively speaking) side, the works themselves, and the comments on those works reflecting views and feelings.
Use GoodReads as a listing for published works, but realize the reviews have been alleged to have been gamed, and the commenters have become toxic in places.

For all that is "holy" do NOT rely on Twitter/X, which has turned into a ragebait ancient Roman arena, where the gladiators, slaves, and animals are tearing each other apart for the amusement of others.

And this is only what I read/watch.
There are many more that I don't have time or knowledge to engage with.

Just remember, romance stories are not real life.
They NEVER were!
They can relate, or reflect it, contribute to the developing worldview of it.
Many can be very good, as good as "literature" with real life.
But they DON'T HAVE TO BE!

Okay, last one. I swear!
This is a REALLY good overview of the origins of BL, especially in the worldview and history of Japan and East Asia from another thread I was browsing.
By Sharaz-de in 2022 - these are NOT my words.
(I can't figure out how to link one thread comment with another thread comment!)

Sharaz-de
2:05 pm, Nov 28 2022

I reflected a bit about the problem of finding a tall muscular hunk bottom in BL stories and I think it’s related to how the genre is born: it was created by female authors influenced by the homosexual subtexts present in many 19th/early 20th century novels by English, French and German authors about all-boys schools and the idealization of androgynous beauty present in some trends of the Romanticism and Decadent movements and who wanted to tell stories about heavy subjects that would have seen as inappropriate and scandalous if they would have happened or they were done by female characters by ‘70s Japanese audience.
Indeed, both Keiko Takemiya and Moto Hagio admitted that they used male characters because they were given more freedom than female ones due to the sexist and misogynistic double standards of the time and Moto Hagio said that she used to perceive boys as put in some kind of ambiguous position between masculinity and femininity when she was a young woman.
So part of the problem and the reason why there are the seme and the uke archetypes is because originally the uke was meant to be a character with whom the female readers could relate in some way.
But I think that East Asian authors are also influenced by how male homosexuality was treated in their cultures before the Westernization; as on one hand it was accepted but on the other it had to be practiced according to specific social rules: there were an active and a passive roles like in heterosexual relationships and the first one belonged to the one who was or the oldest between the two and/or the one with higher social rank because it was “the superior role” while the second belonged to the younger one and/or the one with less social status because it was “the inferior role”.
This perception was present in other societies too (like Ancient Greeks) as they were elitist and sexist cultures and so they thought that the discriminations they applied in daily life were natural and present everywhere.
Some of these concepts still persist today like the one that see women in a passive sexual role because of their nature, while anthropological and historical studies and surveys show how women can easily be the ones to dictate the sexual intercourse and thus being the ones with the active role and the medical ones demonstrate that babies conceived this way are still healthy like the ones conceived when the woman is the passive party, unlike what some ancient myths and prejudices say.
There’s also the fact that there’re women who fetishize love and sex between men so they don’t depict the actual experience and desires of queer men but their own imagination of it, like men who fetishize love between women do when they represent queer women.

I didn’t know the Bara genre was being invaded by Furries: I didn’t think there could be some many in the Bara audience.

"No matter where you go, there you are."
Buckaroo Banzai